SuperBooth 2023 Confession - Reason is for starting an idea

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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challism
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Post 22 May 2023

I don't see any problem with what Mattias said, and it is refreshing to hear such honesty. I continued to watch that video for another few interviews after Mattias, and none of the other people being interviewed were as honest. And there is nothing wrong with Reason continuing to be an inspiration/idea started. That's what it's always excelled at, and you have to embrace and focus on your strengths.

Like Selig said, and so many of us want, I hope they will improve the sequencer. It is long overdue and is an essential part of song creation.
crimsonwarlock wrote:
22 May 2023
EnochLight wrote:
22 May 2023
Pity - there's an amazing amount of great VST's out there, and Reason DAW actually supports VST now! But I hear you - it's nice to just stay in the Reason-garden and just use RE's. Sometimes I miss that simplicity - my VST list is so long, it's almost unbearable (but then again, my RE list is just about as long)!
I've been using loads of VST plugins in the past (in Reaper), but I've become allergic to pop-up windows :puf_bigsmile:

It is one of the reasons I moved to the Reason DAW :thumbup:

As for long lists, my RE list in the shop account is over 12 pages :lol:
I hear you. I'm up to 17 pages of REs on my account. But they are VERY manageable.
I also prefer REs over VSTs. It's so much cleaner. My list of VSTs is growing, but I can't imagine having 300+ VSTs (like I do REs). The installation process for REs is so much better and manageable than it is with VSTs.
DaveyG wrote:
22 May 2023
MattiasHG wrote:
22 May 2023
I'm honestly a bit surprised this could be considered controversial. :)
It isn't controversial. It's just Billy stirring things again. Best to ignore him really. :thumbup:
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Steedus
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Post 22 May 2023

I would agree with him completely. My friend is using (a continuous struggle it seems), Logic for music making because that's what she learned in a sound/music course she studied. But I keep trying to push Reason because I find it just so freeing for creating music.

Obviously Logic can do loads more in the grand scheme of things, but we're just making music for fun in our bedrooms.

A creative sandbox like Reason is way more conducive to producing (ie; "making") stuff than a complex DAW like Logic is.

But that may also be because it's just what I know and am used to - but still...

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Loque
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Post 22 May 2023

So... Sketching ideas... In that case MPE and MIDI 2.0 support is obviously the next thing.
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iTrensharo
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Post 22 May 2023

Goriila Texas wrote:
21 May 2023
The writing has been on the wall for years RS is going back to focusing on being an instrument in a DAW instead of improving as a DAW. They end game is to create so many unique instruments that competes with Native Instruments Komplete price point $599. RRP is the future.
The reality is that most people do not get Komplete at MSRP, which is increasingly an inaccurate way of valuing products. Additionally, people who buy into the NI Hardware ecosystem often get Komplete at a pretty huge discount due to Komplete Select being bundled with hardware like Komplete Kontrol S Series, Maschine MK3 and Maschine+.

Due to the cyclical nature of sales, most people are going to just wait and get it at a discount. That's how most people are buying DAWs, Plug-ins, Virtual Instruments, etc. The market has conditioned them to act in this way, and increasingly more products are launched with promotional pricing, as well (UVI, Arturia, etc.).

How many people actually paid $999 for East West HOOPUS? Instead of $350-375'ish? I feel like it's on sale 8/12 months in a year. BBC SO has multiple sales a year. Sample Library developers like 8DIO and Soundiron have multiple deep sales throughout the year. UJAM, Output?

One of the biggest issues with Rack Extensions is that many are also available as standalone VST Plug-ins, and those often are on sale far more often than the actual Rack Extensions! SO, the vendors themselves undercut the Reason ecosystem even when they have equivalent products there.

Beyond that, it's risky to buy RE's only, because it forces you to invest in Reason even when you may not want to continue using it - simply to retain access to the rack extensions? New OS broke Reason 12? Well, Reason 13 or 14 Upgrade can fix the problem!!! It's like a self-induced trap, so most people are going to play it safe. THey will use Reason for whatever is exclusive to its ecosystem, while opting for "portable" product types in all other cases.

The intelligent thing for anyone entering into this market to do is plan their purchases. If you know you want a KK S-Series Keyboard or Maschine Controller, then you always plan to get the hardware before the software because it discounts the bundle pretty substantially.

In any case, Komplete has a better bundle of Instruments and Samples than Reason 12, so it's actually a superior "chest" from which to "start ideas." So does Logic Pro and Ableton Live Suite. Not only do you have discrete synths in Komplete (Massive X, FM8, etc.), but you also have the Reaktor Ensembles which are fairly analogous to Reason Rack Extensions. They are many, and they are quite underrated, IMO. The Players in Reason are the biggest selling point, but most of those are not included with the perpetual product, and while the base Reason 12 product includes four (?) of them, half are fairly redundant with base DAW features in several other DAWs and the Dual Arpeggio is fairly easy to recreate in other DAWs that have MIDI FX; where you can basically rebuild it as an FX Chain and use that in a similar manner. That's ignoring fairly cheap third party products out there.

At the end of the day, the only way to get something even hoping to be as good as Komplete 14 Standard is to subscribe to Reason+, which will eventually overrun the cost of Komplete. This will happen in less time than a Komplete Update Cycle if you get a Discounted Kontakt Crossgrade from a freebie (e.g. Embertone Arcane) + Discounted Upgrade to Komplete - it's like $340 doing that all in the same shopping cart. This is how I brought Komplete 13 [Standard].

Unless you subscribe, you will be paying for all the extra Instruments, Synths and Players a la carte. This will have you paying Komplete Ultimate [and up to Komplete Collector's] prices for less content - and in the case of acoustic instruments, acoustic instruments aren't aren't as good or as deeply sampled.

Komplete is basically the de facto for people getting into music production who want a decent stable of staple acoustic instruments and some decent synths, along with access to fairly industry standard ecosystems (that require the Full Versions of those platforms). The culture of promotional pricing in the synth/virtual instrument/plug-in markets these days also make it hard to consider paying $399-499 for the RRP because of how little development actually goes into what is there, and what you can get elsewhere (with far better ongoing support/development) for fairly low prices.

As it currently stands, they cannot compete with KOMPLETE in that pricing segment. Even ignoring promotional pricing and basically "free cross grade onboarding," KOMPLETE is simply worth more than the disparity in price vs. Reason 12. This is why, despite all of the expected anti-leader complaints aimed at NI, they continue to sell those bundles ... to such an extent that their servers basically crash whenever they have a sale/promotion.

-----

I like the idea of the Reason Rack, but it doesn't feel good to use with M&KB for me - especially considering how esoteric the mapping for MIDI Controllers tends to be. I actually think it would be kind of amazing if it were optimized for Windows Touch/Surface Dial on something like a Surface Studio, though. IMO, that is where "looking and functioning like hardware" makes the most sense. For M&KB use, that actually becomes a negative. I am not that nostalgic.

The only thing we have close to this is the ProChannel strip in Cakewalk by BandLab [SONAR]. Probably the only DAW on the market that has gone out of its way to support this stuff on Windows OS.

Also, I don't see a reason why Cakewalk would bring back the LA2A for Reason when they could bring it back for ProChannel and use it to push their own DAW.

-----

Can't really take the developers' words seriously. I mean, some of the stuff people have been begging for years for doesn't even tough the realm of "market segment specific" functionality... like Track Folders to help organize sessions. Windows [Low Latency] Audio Support? ARA2? I don't think basic video sync and playback is a feature exclusive to film composers, either. What users are they actually trying to market to? People who use GarageBand for iPad or Cubasis 3 as ideas scratchpads? I understand what he's saying, but it seems inherently oxymoronic at the same time.

I can see them not wanting to make Reason as good as Cubase for Composition or Samplitude Pro X for Mastering... but there are other long ignored feature requests that don't come close to edging into that area that they have failed to deliver on. And frankly, they move so slow that - for most users - it is hardly worth staying to wait for them. I'd say that is the primary reason why the RRP has been such a success. People have largely given up on them improving the standalone DAW to the point that they have conceded that it is better to use Komplete Kontrol 3.0 over asking Reason Studios to improve the software. Not exactly a healthy thing for product development and improvement.

The rack, in isolation, is not high value enough to carry the product for anyone but legacy users, and those who reside in a certain niche of users. I can appreciate them having realistic aspirations, though. At least we can feel assured that they won't overreach.......

But there is nothing about Reason 12 that makes it better for "starting ideas" than Cakewalk and a Komplete Standard bundle... and you can still Mix and Master your content and put in feature requests that the developers will actually action upon (historically, at least).

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EnochLight
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Post 22 May 2023

That’s a lot of text. Was it a Chat GPT copy/paste?

:lol: :thumbup:
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guitfnky
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Post 22 May 2023

hard to take too much from that. that could be interpreted a number of different ways. but…if they do only mean to focus on being that initial spark, they ought to do that and mothball the DAW.

a wise creature once said, “do, or do not—there is no try.” the Reason DAW deserves to be either embraced, or discarded, not treated as an afterthought and gradually forgotten. shit, or get off the pot.

I wouldn’t fault them, if that’s the direction they want—it would just be sad that something so close to greatness has failed to see its potential.
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Jagwah
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Post 23 May 2023

challism wrote:
22 May 2023
I don't see any problem with what Mattias said, and it is refreshing to hear such honesty.
I see a lot of dishonesty in the audio world when it comes to selling audio related products, it's nice to know Mattias doesn't need to second guess himself and can speak confidently and back up anything he says, that says a lot.

scotward57
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Post 23 May 2023

Ironic how diverse the Reason Community is, yet this sense of incompleteness pervades throughout. I'm in the camp of keeping Reason away from being just another DAW. I'm totally ok with RRP and the focus on devices and the rack paradigm. But like everybody else, I have my own wishlist:

1a. I want better hardware controller integration. I appreciate the recent efforts of Remote support for newer controllers, but Remote itself feels outdated. I'd like to be able to customize/edit Remote files from within the Reason environment, for example and not do text edit hacks and crazy stuff like that.

1b. I have a vision for a special type of combinator device, a "Controller Combinator" where you get to design the layout, the knobs/pads/sliders/buttons/XYpads/etc to match the hardware controller(s) you have. But instead of that combinator being just a super patch, this controller combinator has the ability to save/launch different scenes/parameter settings for the entire rack or reason song.

2. Reason really should jump into the whole clip-launching 64 grid pad controller universe, or at least set up Blocks to be somehow functionally equivalent. It would be cool to use my Novation Launchpad x to start/stop Block scenes in real time.

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Jagwah
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Post 23 May 2023

scotward57 wrote:
23 May 2023
1b. I have a vision for a special type of combinator device, a "Controller Combinator" where you get to design the layout, the knobs/pads/sliders/buttons/XYpads/etc to match the hardware controller(s) you have. But instead of that combinator being just a super patch, this controller combinator has the ability to save/launch different scenes/parameter settings for the entire rack or reason song.
Hey if it's a rack device then your vision has far more chance than anything that isn't ;)

Maybe there should be a separate sub-forum here for Rack Extension suggestions, and Props can read that without having to read all the other suggestions : D

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selig
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Post 23 May 2023

Goriila Texas wrote:
21 May 2023
The writing has been on the wall for years RS is going back to focusing on being an instrument in a DAW instead of improving as a DAW. They end game is to create so many unique instruments that competes with Native Instruments Komplete price point $599. RRP is the future.
I have to wonder though, if I’m looking for an “idea starter” I don’t want a plugin or even a collection of instruments (either Reason OR Komplete). I want a stand alone application (like Reason) that has everything I need to get ideas off the ground and on their way to sounding finished. An “instrument in a DAW” can be an inspiration for a song, but for me no one instrument or collection of instruments is the end all idea starter over the long haul.

For example, the plugin doesn’t have the same appeal as Reason as an idea starter because you don’t have total modularity. From day one, at least for me, this has been a huge draw to Reason. I find the ability to build songs with elements that so easily interact to be a major inspiration. And while I used to hold out hope that Reason, with only a little more progress, COULD have been the end all music making app, I’ve not held too tightly to that idea (especially recently, since moving to LUNA for mixing).

All I can say is I felt it would be FAR easier to take an app with the creative inspiration foundation such as Reason and add the technical aspects to make it ‘complete’ would be easier than taking any of the “proper” DAWs and somehow adding that “fun factor” and inspirational quality that is so difficult to put into words.

That said, IMO there are multiple world class “idea finishers” out there from Pro Tools on down. But IMO there are fewer “idea starters” and that’s where Reason shines for my creative endeavors.

(Side note, I’ve used Reason as a ‘proper DAW’ to mix several projects over the years for major artists that ‘assumed’ I was still using Pro Tools, and no one ever complained about the results. All to say, I’m certainly ABLE to make it work as a ‘proper DAW’ in some cases, but it’s far from as fluid and direct as most other options in that respect).
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Post 23 May 2023

Steedus wrote:
22 May 2023
I would agree with him completely. My friend is using (a continuous struggle it seems), Logic for music making because that's what she learned in a sound/music course she studied. But I keep trying to push Reason because I find it just so freeing for creating music.

Obviously Logic can do loads more in the grand scheme of things, but we're just making music for fun in our bedrooms.

A creative sandbox like Reason is way more conducive to producing (ie; "making") stuff than a complex DAW like Logic is.

But that may also be because it's just what I know and am used to - but still...
I’m not understanding the Logic struggle. Both are pretty similar to laying down tracks.

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Billy+
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Post 23 May 2023

MattiasHG wrote:
22 May 2023
Billy+ wrote:
21 May 2023
Did Mattias really just say that Reason is an idea starter and not geared toward complete production?
I'm honestly a bit surprised this could be considered controversial. :)
thanks for the response,

personal I didn't think it was controversial - just surprised that you said it.

I've always see Reason as a DAW that is capable of completing a project in especial in recent version, i've never seen the point in a lot of the feature request threads that call for Reason to be like other apps and have always like the extras that have been added to the sequencer it's almost like the sequencer has grown with me over the many years i've used Reason so all in all i'm happy with it.

i'm sure you could list exactly what i would like to see added to make it more complete and more importantly most of it is easily archivable.

i do have one question though :-

will we see improvements / features added to the DAW that are less noteworthy but just simply improve workflow?

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Post 23 May 2023

It wasn't controversial, except you, Billy, made it sound like it was, when it wasn't. "cOnfEsSioN" 🙄, "sUrPriSed" 🙄🙄🙄

You don't even know the meaning of words 🙄

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mcatalao
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Post 23 May 2023

I'm not surprized about this stance, and if you consider the music creation process it is a benefit more than a nuisance, imho.

However considering a lot of the work I have done in the latest years, specially for other artists, I've taken a lot of work where i have been only mixing and mastering stuff for other people, and finalizing a project is pretty much doable, I've done band demos, independent artist's full projects, arrangemends and lots of vocal editing with reason in the best of 20 years... so I'm with Selig, when he says he worked with reason as a full fledged DAW and he was fully capable of doing so.

Still, i think there are lots of stuff to evolve, as reason lacks stuff that help the initial process nontheless, so what i really critique about this stance is that the evolution of the aplication is imho now a little bit bound to the sequencer and mixer, as it has been the parts in the application that have been more neglected in the last years. The rack is now super developed in the DAW and as a VST. We now have VST2.4 support, VST3, and Rack Extensions are at what, their 3rd or 4th SDK iteration, the combinator, wich is one of the most important parts of reason imho, is now a mamoth!

And yet, simple stuff as an auto punch in in the Sequencer is still lacking. Same for track folders and other project organization stuff, or a really solid group function in the Mixer, or retrospective midi recording (now thats something that helps things get started, there isn't anything more freeing than just play your keys without thinking of tempo, or hitting record and then be able to recover that).

And yes, It's great to see amazing new devices, like Object, Friktion and Algorithm, but on the other hand, what brings me to reason again and again is that sense of being able to do stuff, and be more inspired and be able to get things going - and there are things that are missing that are not that specific or specialized to say they are for mixing engineers or mastering engineers...

Anyway I digress.

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EnochLight
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Post 23 May 2023

Billy+ wrote:
23 May 2023
I've always see Reason as a DAW that is capable of completing a project in especial in recent version, i've never seen the point in a lot of the feature request threads that call for Reason to be like other apps and have always like the extras that have been added to the sequencer it's almost like the sequencer has grown with me over the many years i've used Reason so all in all i'm happy with it.
So what made you bail on Reason (DAW) and pick up Ableton Live?
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Billy+
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Post 23 May 2023

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
23 May 2023
It wasn't controversial, except you, Billy, made it sound like it was, when it wasn't. "cOnfEsSioN" 🙄, "sUrPriSed" 🙄🙄🙄

You don't even know the meaning of words 🙄
Image

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Billy+
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Post 23 May 2023

EnochLight wrote:
23 May 2023
Billy+ wrote:
23 May 2023
I've always see Reason as a DAW that is capable of completing a project in especial in recent version, i've never seen the point in a lot of the feature request threads that call for Reason to be like other apps and have always like the extras that have been added to the sequencer it's almost like the sequencer has grown with me over the many years i've used Reason so all in all i'm happy with it.
So what made you bail on Reason (DAW) and pick up Ableton Live?
midi vst devices not being enabled
at the time of release of R12 everything was an in the future feature

which i'm not buying into (i will wait to see)

honestly i would have paid full price for R12 that included midi vst devices working, currently nothing added to R12 was on my wish list.
i do understand that most of it was needed but not by me, so i brought Live while i wait to see what happens to Reason and future updates / upgrades.

it's no big deal however the consensus seams to be that i'm a hater now bent on causing problems and controversy, rather that just posting sh*t like many others have over the years.

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EnochLight
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Post 23 May 2023

Billy+ wrote:
23 May 2023
midi vst devices not being enabled
at the time of release of R12 everything was an in the future feature

which i'm not buying into (i will wait to see)
Interesting. MIDI VST devices are literally the last thing that I needed (in fact, I don't need any of them since Players fulfill all of my needs). The reason I picked up Ableton Live (other than I had been playing with the idea for many years) was the fact that when R12 launched, I was having so many performance issues with it that it literally was unusable on my (admittedly old) PC, and this went on for months. So I panicked and bought Live thinking it was going to be the new norm. But then Reason Studios got their bug fixes and performance improvements out, and.... now Reason 12 works like I needed it to in the first place for the most part. So, I'm now sitting on Ableton Live and bounce between the two for shits and giggles.
Billy+ wrote:
23 May 2023
it's no big deal however the consensus seems to be that i'm a hater now bent on causing problems and controversy, rather that just posting sh*t like many others have over the

years.
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Billy+
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Post 23 May 2023

not sure what the meme is but hey seams to be the thing to do here.

as for the players they great I used them lots but i like some of the more advanced features that are only available in vst devices and would like to be able to use them with RE's in a simple manner which Live gives me and Reason doesn't...

iTrensharo
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Post 23 May 2023

EnochLight wrote:
22 May 2023
That’s a lot of text. Was it a Chat GPT copy/paste?

:lol: :thumbup:
Always have run into that unfortunate situation where I cannot block a troll.
Last edited by iTrensharo on 23 May 2023, edited 1 time in total.

iTrensharo
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Post 23 May 2023

selig wrote:
23 May 2023
Goriila Texas wrote:
21 May 2023
The writing has been on the wall for years RS is going back to focusing on being an instrument in a DAW instead of improving as a DAW. They end game is to create so many unique instruments that competes with Native Instruments Komplete price point $599. RRP is the future.
I have to wonder though, if I’m looking for an “idea starter” I don’t want a plugin or even a collection of instruments (either Reason OR Komplete). I want a stand alone application (like Reason) that has everything I need to get ideas off the ground and on their way to sounding finished. An “instrument in a DAW” can be an inspiration for a song, but for me no one instrument or collection of instruments is the end all idea starter over the long haul.

For example, the plugin doesn’t have the same appeal as Reason as an idea starter because you don’t have total modularity. From day one, at least for me, this has been a huge draw to Reason. I find the ability to build songs with elements that so easily interact to be a major inspiration. And while I used to hold out hope that Reason, with only a little more progress, COULD have been the end all music making app, I’ve not held too tightly to that idea (especially recently, since moving to LUNA for mixing).

All I can say is I felt it would be FAR easier to take an app with the creative inspiration foundation such as Reason and add the technical aspects to make it ‘complete’ would be easier than taking any of the “proper” DAWs and somehow adding that “fun factor” and inspirational quality that is so difficult to put into words.

That said, IMO there are multiple world class “idea finishers” out there from Pro Tools on down. But IMO there are fewer “idea starters” and that’s where Reason shines for my creative endeavors.

(Side note, I’ve used Reason as a ‘proper DAW’ to mix several projects over the years for major artists that ‘assumed’ I was still using Pro Tools, and no one ever complained about the results. All to say, I’m certainly ABLE to make it work as a ‘proper DAW’ in some cases, but it’s far from as fluid and direct as most other options in that respect).
Rack Extensions are plug-ins. They're just plug-ins in a specific format exclusive to Reason, like AAX is to Pro Tools.

So, that doesn't really track.

What you seem to prefer is a specific workflow that Reason has to offer (very valid), because apart from differences in UX Design and Organization there really isn't a difference between Reason and its rack extensions resp. any other DAW and a collection of plug-ins and virtual instruments.

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Post 23 May 2023

iTrensharo wrote:
23 May 2023
Always have run into that unfortunate situation where I cannot block a troll.
Come on, ... lighten up dude :D

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DaveyG
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Post 23 May 2023

iTrensharo wrote:
23 May 2023
Always have run into that unfortunate situation where I cannot block a troll.
It's a bit rude calling them trolls. Around here we call them moderators. :twisted:
But, yeah, you can't put mods on ignore lists. I've tried with two of 'em.... :lol: :lol:

PhillipOrdonez
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Post 23 May 2023

Billy+ wrote:
23 May 2023
PhillipOrdonez wrote:
23 May 2023
It wasn't controversial, except you, Billy, made it sound like it was, when it wasn't. "cOnfEsSioN" 🙄, "sUrPriSed" 🙄🙄🙄

You don't even know the meaning of words 🙄
Image
I imagine basic things everyone can do could sound like magic to you 🤯

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