Rack Extension vs VST plug-in prices

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
User avatar
DaveyG
Posts: 2536
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 22 Nov 2023

There is certainly no denying the convenience of installing Reason plus all the REs on a new PC compared with any DAW plus some VSTs but it's not something you do very often.

And now that RS have messed with the licensing system I'm not entirely confident how smoothly moving my Reason 11 plus REs to a new PC would be. Unless the C drive fails I won't need to find out for a few years yet.

Tinnitus
Posts: 137
Joined: 15 Apr 2018

Post 22 Nov 2023

I bought two VSTs and had issues installing them (first time ever tbh). Kindly given the cross grade and I've not looked into the install issues since. REs are great and allow the rack to breath visually.

Synapse are up there with her best IMO. I think the manual system works from a buyer's perspective. It's nice to know that if we ever change DAWs (unlikely but you never know what strategy is around the corner) we can take our REs as VSTs even if the rack is no longer available (again very unlikely).
Price wise, I can see the advantage of lowering REs, particularly knowing that they cannot be resold, so this would increase visibility. IMO don't lower them to your lowest, because it's always worth adding them to the sale, so that adds a reminder that they exist during black Friday for example. Thanks for continuing to support the RE format.

User avatar
Rising Night Wave
Posts: 1220
Joined: 03 Sep 2019
Location: Vransko, Slovenia

Post 22 Nov 2023

from the very beginning i am using only and that is only REs.
i do have some VSTs (all are FREE) but that does not count.
only few songs out of cca 300 songs i have done has those few VSTs.
Rising Night Wave & Extus at SoundCloud
HW: Asus ROG Strix G513QM | Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 3rd Gen | M-Audio M3-8 | M-Audio Uber Mic | Shure SRH1840 | Shure SE215 | LG 49UK6400
SW: Windows 11 Pro | Reason 10 | Reason+

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Steedus wrote:
22 Nov 2023
To answer the question though, could you not do a "crossgrade" fee if RE users want to grab the equivalent VST version? That way you could price RE a bit cheaper.
Yes, that would be the ideal solution. The issue is just that we have no automated way of doing this. Maybe we can work out something with RS, so that all RE customers get a crossgrade key or so along with their purchase.

Richard
Interesting idea...or pay a bit more with "including VST, AU...". Guess the trouble comes with more details (updates, upgrades, cross grades, bundles, support,...) Pay once might be the simplest solution than...
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

luckygreen wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
...
The idea of the RE is great, but got stuck years ago. Complex devices like Dune cannot be done as RE.
Let's not forget the modular nature of the Reason Rack: Dune 3 comes with a sophisticated arpeggio and other great features inside the instrument itself. On the other hand, Synapse Antidote RE may be much smaller in scope but compensates with the flexibility of the Reason Rack: Some Antidote presets use the combinator and are made of three or more Antidotes and Thor for step sequencing and what not.
Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
... All Synapse VSTs must be installed manually and registered manually, and please, do not create a App doing this for me, dice I already have plenty such apps installed and some of them are really sh!t...
Agreed.

The best thing is give the user the installation-files, a license key and that's it. No pesky challenge-response-stituations with hidden activation counts. ... oh well ... that's another topic.
Yea, sure... Plenty possibilities with VST+Reason. No need for arpeggiators, sequences, FX, modulation,... Every dev "needs" to add such features.

A FX VST with plenty modulation possibilities seems waste of dev time to me, when I compare them with RE (if they have enough CVs 😘).

A VST with FX makes most sense with polyphonic FX. This is not (yet?) possible in Reason or at least not so easy to achieve (Distributor).

And yes, I agree to downloadable, personalized and authorized installers, maybe at least with only 1 serial for all the stuff. I am also fine with one time login. I am not a fan of computer bound authorization - I fear the day may HD dies...
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
huggermugger
Posts: 1305
Joined: 16 Jul 2021

Post 22 Nov 2023

I buy the external plugin version whenever possible. It doesn't make sense to invest in an RE when I can run the VST in Reason and also the AU in Logic or HostingAU.

User avatar
crimsonwarlock
Posts: 2328
Joined: 06 Nov 2021
Location: Close to the Edge

Post 22 Nov 2023

Hi Richard, long time no see (since Orion-Central :puf_wink: ).

These days I'm running Reason with basically only REs. I bought all Synapse REs so far, and will buy anything RE you'll release in the future. No interest in VST crossgrades for me. As for lowering RE prices, that would be nice, although I think your REs are nicely priced as it stands.
-------
Analog tape ⇒ ESQ1 sequencer board ⇒ Atari/Steinberg Pro24 ⇒ Atari/Cubase ⇒ Cakewalk Sonar ⇒ Orion Pro/Platinum ⇒ Reaper ⇒ Reason DAW.

User avatar
luckygreen
Posts: 107
Joined: 24 Jul 2023
Location: Germany

Post 22 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
... I fear the day may HD dies...
Yes, exactly! Or you want a bigger SSD, need to reinstall your OS, upgrade your graphics card, whatever ...
huggermugger wrote:
22 Nov 2023
I buy the external plugin version whenever possible. It doesn't make sense to invest in an RE when I can run the VST in Reason and also the AU in Logic or HostingAU.
So you are not using Reason as a DAW, only the RRP for it's native devices?

When I use Reason as a DAW I try to avoid VST plugins because the USP of Reason to me is it's rack and the audio / CV routing within the rack. I try to avoid floating windows whenever possible. That's one reason why I like Ableton Live as well: everything is layed out on one screen (mostly). The opposite: FL Studios. It looks really interesting and I know it has some powerful features but all those windows on top of other windows. Too many windows. :D
Reason 12 perpetual | Ableton Live 11 Suite
Lectric Panda Kompulsion, Nostromo, mDSQ, Shape | PinkNoise Maia Bundle | Reason Studios Objekt | Rob Papen Go2 | UJAM some RE | Synapse Audio AF-4, RE-160, Obsession | Andrew Russell Double Dry/Wet | Murf Valley Plateau

tanni
Posts: 213
Joined: 19 Jul 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

I generally prefer RE. With vst plugins, I have often found that vst 2 runs more stable than vst 3 plugins. But I ultimately think RE is the better format in Reason because of integrity. :re:
I think it's a shame that the RE variants don't always offer everything that the respective vst plugin has (current example with The Legend). The features should be the same in terms of sound and synthesis. Sometimes vst plugins receive subsequent updates that are not updated in RE format. :puf_unhappy:

User avatar
StephenHutchinson
Posts: 464
Joined: 27 Sep 2019

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Hi,

I have a question to all Rack Extension fans, about pricing Rack Extensions vs their VST equivalents.
Currently we employ the same price for our VST and REs, in order to enable free crossgrades between VST and RE.

I was wondering whether it would make sense to give up on free crossgrades in the future, and in turn lower the RE prices significantly. Would that make sense?
Put differently, how many of you are RE-exclusive users vs those who need all versions (RE/VST/AU/AAX).

Feedback appreciated!

Richard / Synapse Audio
www.synapse-audio.com

I know this may be a little off topic, but I have been wondering, quietly to myself, if you are able to create both REs and VSTs for the same instruments/effects... wouldn't it be an advantage for Reason Studios to do the same thing with their add on instruments, effects, and players? They could make a killing in the VST market if this holds water. Or am I missing something.
:reason: Reason User Since Version 1.0
Sound Design & Music Content Creation
Sound Dimension :: https://www.sounddimension.io

User avatar
parma
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Feb 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

StephenHutchinson wrote:
22 Nov 2023
SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Hi,

I have a question to all Rack Extension fans, about pricing Rack Extensions vs their VST equivalents.
Currently we employ the same price for our VST and REs, in order to enable free crossgrades between VST and RE.

I was wondering whether it would make sense to give up on free crossgrades in the future, and in turn lower the RE prices significantly. Would that make sense?
Put differently, how many of you are RE-exclusive users vs those who need all versions (RE/VST/AU/AAX).

Feedback appreciated!

Richard / Synapse Audio
www.synapse-audio.com

I know this may be a little off topic, but I have been wondering, quietly to myself, if you are able to create both REs and VSTs for the same instruments/effects... wouldn't it be an advantage for Reason Studios to do the same thing with their add on instruments, effects, and players? They could make a killing in the VST market if this holds water. Or am I missing something.
They tried this with Europa a few years ago. It was released as a VST. I imagine sales weren't what they hoped because it has quietly disappeared and no other Reason VSTs have been released.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

parma wrote:
22 Nov 2023
StephenHutchinson wrote:
22 Nov 2023



I know this may be a little off topic, but I have been wondering, quietly to myself, if you are able to create both REs and VSTs for the same instruments/effects... wouldn't it be an advantage for Reason Studios to do the same thing with their add on instruments, effects, and players? They could make a killing in the VST market if this holds water. Or am I missing something.
They tried this with Europa a few years ago. It was released as a VST. I imagine sales weren't what they hoped because it has quietly disappeared and no other Reason VSTs have been released.
I think it was more technical experiments, because they released a web version at the same time. The idea was to have different target platforms than only RE and it seemed to work. So, in theory a RE can run as a VST only or in the cloud. Or since we are on Synapse thread, The Legend VST could be generated from the RE code base f.e.

If they ever want to create VST versions of RE it will work.

If they want to create a cloud only DAW, all your RE will work.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
parma
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Feb 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
parma wrote:
22 Nov 2023


They tried this with Europa a few years ago. It was released as a VST. I imagine sales weren't what they hoped because it has quietly disappeared and no other Reason VSTs have been released.
I think it was more technical experiments, because they released a web version at the same time. The idea was to have different target platforms than only RE and it seemed to work. So, in theory a RE can run as a VST only or in the cloud. Or since we are on Synapse thread, The Legend VST could be generated from the RE code base f.e.

If they ever want to create VST versions of RE it will work.

If they want to create a cloud only DAW, all your RE will work.
Ah, I see. I totally forgot about the web version. Still, as much as I love Reason I don't think any of the stock devices are particularly outstanding enough to do much in the VST market. Some of their paid REs on the other hand...

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

parma wrote:
23 Nov 2023
Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023

I think it was more technical experiments, because they released a web version at the same time. The idea was to have different target platforms than only RE and it seemed to work. So, in theory a RE can run as a VST only or in the cloud. Or since we are on Synapse thread, The Legend VST could be generated from the RE code base f.e.

If they ever want to create VST versions of RE it will work.

If they want to create a cloud only DAW, all your RE will work.
Ah, I see. I totally forgot about the web version. Still, as much as I love Reason I don't think any of the stock devices are particularly outstanding enough to do much in the VST market. Some of their paid REs on the other hand...
When I look at VST world and how excited they are about weak and boring FX, I think devices like Fritz would have an impact like a bomb. And I agree, the competition in VST Land is very strong, not necessarily high quality, but November of competitors, prices, marketing, image, ...
Reason12, Win10

ambi
Posts: 79
Joined: 31 Mar 2023

Post 23 Nov 2023

I don't need the VST's and would prefer lower RE prices.

User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
If they want to create a cloud only DAW, all your RE will work.
Yeah, still hoping to see something like this. Or maybe REs in a hardware rack. That would be fun :)

Richard

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
23 Nov 2023
Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
If they want to create a cloud only DAW, all your RE will work.
Yeah, still hoping to see something like this. Or maybe REs in a hardware rack. That would be fun :)

Richard
Still crossing fingers with cooperation with Noise Engineering enabling specific RE for a rack...
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
turn2on
RE Developer
Posts: 790
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

All we are here, because using Reason (as app or plugin).

remember time at VST forums, when VST users dream about blocks from Maelstrom as example.
May be somebody like idea to use in rack parts of Duna 3, etc.

Special limited in possibilities products in RE format, can make bad role for RE platform at all.
Users that seat on RE (because love Reason) always look back to powerful VST version, and can think "oh, Reason cant the same as VST". But much more interesting to think "wow, modular parts of Dune 3, must have!"
This is more interesting.
Sad, that Reason is not really a modular, may be more semi-modular (individual Audio and CV signals, not like in modulars). But anyway, chances to have specialised blocks - always good to have.

May be just filters, may be Oscs with EG (like Mutable oscs), some effects, filters, or multi-fx block... why not. This is more interesting for musician. He can select - full VST or needed parts in RE.
Always possible build from parts something near, or absolutely new. Combi 2.0 help more for this now.

Make Premium product and Lite version of it, is additional pain. This exclude full compatibility, device control, out of the same possibilities.. additional work. When users can just buy normal device as VST. Much more interesting to have exclusive modular parts for Reason.
Few steps from them, and you can release this modules versions for VCV. Why not)

Harder to make the same VST as finished RE, and have enough interest from VST users to it.

User avatar
turn2on
RE Developer
Posts: 790
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

RE in browser, as external hardware (ah, Elk OS...), iOS plugins.. all this have big potential, but not now & here.
Still waiting some magic.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 11038
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
23 Nov 2023
SynapseAudio wrote:
23 Nov 2023


Yeah, still hoping to see something like this. Or maybe REs in a hardware rack. That would be fun :)

Richard
Still crossing fingers with cooperation with Noise Engineering enabling specific RE for a rack...
Yeah I was hopeful we'd see some REs in the ELK hardware. I wonder if RE could be made compatible with something like this? https://www.perfectcircuit.com/electros ... field.html

On the topic of RE vs VST, I much prefer RE for the workflow in the rack. I buy VSTs of plugins not available in RE format, usually because those plugins can't exist as REs.

I don't have a strong preference on price difference between RE and VST and crossgrade cost. Whether the RE costs the same and the crossgrade is free or the RE is cheaper and the crossgrade has a price, I guess if it ends up being the same total, it could be fine either way.

User avatar
TritoneAddiction
Competition Winner
Posts: 4229
Joined: 29 Aug 2015
Location: Sweden

Post 23 Nov 2023

I'm a rack extension only user, except for some very few exceptions. Not really interested in the VST format.
Love your stuff btw. I've got most of your REs and some of them have become my go-tos. :puf_smile:

User avatar
huggermugger
Posts: 1305
Joined: 16 Jul 2021

Post 23 Nov 2023

luckygreen wrote:
22 Nov 2023
huggermugger wrote:
22 Nov 2023
I buy the external plugin version whenever possible. It doesn't make sense to invest in an RE when I can run the VST in Reason and also the AU in Logic or HostingAU.
So you are not using Reason as a DAW, only the RRP for it's native devices?
I do use Reason as a DAW and I happily use VSTs within it. VSTs in Reason have never given me a problem, and I like the quick access to CV parameters built into the VST shell.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Mataya
Posts: 528
Joined: 03 May 2019

Post 23 Nov 2023

I use Reason as a DAW and since the introduction of VST inside Reason, never looked back. Vst's work great and overall it's such a good implementation. MIDI out for VST's and I'm a happy man.
Quite a few developer are obviously leaving Re format and while it's a shame for users, I can understand it. Also, which is even worse, there are no new developers on the scene.
Don't know what's going to happen. Don't mind buying RE. I like it when developers lower their prices when they decide to leave. Thanks Panda and others. I know he said he's not leaving. But c'mon...

M

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 23 Nov 2023

Mataya wrote:
23 Nov 2023
I use Reason as a DAW and since the introduction of VST inside Reason, never looked back. Vst's work great and overall it's such a good implementation. MIDI out for VST's and I'm a happy man.
Quite a few developer are obviously leaving Re format and while it's a shame for users, I can understand it. Also, which is even worse, there are no new developers on the scene.
Don't know what's going to happen. Don't mind buying RE. I like it when developers lower their prices when they decide to leave. Thanks Panda and others. I know he said he's not leaving. But c'mon...

M
Well, in the last years a lot of ppl said this... And as always in the past... Just today a new RE was released 😏

And it is also released as a VST. I don't know anything about a cross grade, but I am sure, the dev would have been happy, if he had to do the developing only once and could manage selling or cross grading easier.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
artmessiah
Posts: 91
Joined: 22 Apr 2017
Location: Virginia Beach

Post 23 Nov 2023

I like the free RE cross-grade options but for sure I would not have an issue if the RE was a cheaper version of the the VST if it helps with the creation of new instruments and tools in the future. I personally love the RE format as it is inspiring and works better (in my opinion) in the Rack environment, but now that VST in all its forms is supported others might disagree. I feel that if reason was to focus on the RE format (improve upon it) and update it's sequencer for workflow enhancements with the stuff that some users have been wanting for years like folder tracks, inspector tools on tracks (volume, pan, etc), multi-timbrel outs (kontakt), midi tools via the sequencer (not players), the RE format or Reason in general would have more popularity. Like someone already mentioned, do what's best for your company - We'll still rock with you cuz you still rock with us old Propellerheads :)

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests