Rack Extension vs VST plug-in prices

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

Hi,

I have a question to all Rack Extension fans, about pricing Rack Extensions vs their VST equivalents.
Currently we employ the same price for our VST and REs, in order to enable free crossgrades between VST and RE.

I was wondering whether it would make sense to give up on free crossgrades in the future, and in turn lower the RE prices significantly. Would that make sense?
Put differently, how many of you are RE-exclusive users vs those who need all versions (RE/VST/AU/AAX).

Feedback appreciated!

Richard / Synapse Audio
www.synapse-audio.com

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1134
Joined: 02 Apr 2020

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Feedback appreciated!
I buy the VST and take advantage of your awesome generosity to crossgrade to RE.

But I'm even happier to hear you're considering releasing future REs!!!! :clap: :crazy:
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

User avatar
dvdrtldg
Posts: 2401
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

I guess the answer depends on how people feel about the future of Reason. Optimists will likely go for cheaper REs, pessimists will want to stick with the free crossgrade option. I'm not sure which one applies to me. Probably I'd take a bet each way - i.e. wait until a sale to buy the RE, then go for the free VST crossgrade

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

Tbh, I took the cross grades just in case I ever need the VSTs in future, f.e. when I use a different DAW. I first reach out to the RE. When I need ot want the features not present in the RE, I could go to the VSTs. Till now I never payed a cross grade, because I didn't needed it.

Till now, the RE were enough for me and a lower price would have been fine for me. A cross grade price would be ok, as long as it is fair.

On the other hand, it is from user perspective weird to pay extra for different formats. Nobody would accept extra costs for AU, VST3, CLAP or whatever...I know RE are different since the devs must pay for the platform. This must be be addressed with RS.

If Dune would have been available as RE, I would have bought it as RE.

Do what is best for your business.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
MrFigg
Competition Winner
Posts: 9137
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 22 Nov 2023

I have a million REs including all Synapse ones with the exception of the compressor and the Oberheim. So yeah, I don’t need the VST option as I’ll never move DAW. Cool.
🗲 2ॐ ᛉ

User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

antic604 wrote:
22 Nov 2023
But I'm even happier to hear you're considering releasing future REs!!!! :clap: :crazy:
Yes, our plug-ins currently in development are still compatible with the RE format. We created our VST<>RE framework around 2015 or so and have not changed that since. Of course REs require a bunch of changes related to the UI, CVs etc, but the core is compatible. :)

Richard

Popey
Competition Winner
Posts: 2091
Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 22 Nov 2023

I do wonder if there is a way to offer both that is not too confusing to potential buyers.

Perhaps sell a version of the re + crossgrade for the same price as the vst.

Also offer the re only version at a cheaper price.

This gives both optimists and pessimists an option tk suit their needs.

Ps. Thanks for the recent update to dune

User avatar
parma
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Feb 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

I say keep the prices the same and offer the crossgrade. You are generous to do so and it's not like you don't participate in sales throughout the year for those looking to get your stuff cheaper. Either way, it's really nice to have a "bigger" developer still support REs

User avatar
luckygreen
Posts: 107
Joined: 24 Jul 2023
Location: Germany

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
...
Put differently, how many of you are RE-exclusive users vs those who need all versions (RE/VST/AU/AAX).

Feedback appreciated!

Richard / Synapse Audio
www.synapse-audio.com
In general, with the Reason Rack Plugin I'd say RE is sufficient. Example: If I want The Legend in Ableton Live, I simply load up my RRP and put The Legend RE inside. The advantages of having a RE instead of a VST inside the Reason DAW are obvious.

But watch for the nitty-gritty stuff! I was told The Legend RE is missing a setting that the VST version has: Something with oscillator start phase. Or look at the new preset browsers of your VST devices. There are features that can not be done in one or the other format, be it VST / CLAP / AU / AAX on one side and RE on the other.

So there are reasons to want both formats. Honestly you are doing a great job of giving your users the opportunity to pay once and get both: VST and RE. But I can see that this means additional work for you / your company that you may want to get rid of. We e-mailed because of this crossgrade stuff yesterday and this morning.

To put it straight, you already have the best solution for the user: allow for crossgrades free of charge.
If you give the Reason users much better prices but in turn no free crossgrade option my guess is you will have to compensate: Less features / more simpe RE-equivalent. Or no equivalents at all.
Reason 12 perpetual | Ableton Live 11 Suite
Lectric Panda Kompulsion, Nostromo, mDSQ, Shape | PinkNoise Maia Bundle | Reason Studios Objekt | Rob Papen Go2 | UJAM some RE | Synapse Audio AF-4, RE-160, Obsession | Andrew Russell Double Dry/Wet | Murf Valley Plateau

User avatar
DaveyG
Posts: 2536
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 22 Nov 2023

I've completely stopped buying REs so my preference would be the one you haven't offered: lower VST prices!
This is probably not the right thread to discuss the reason for my RE decision.

User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
If Dune would have been available as RE, I would have bought it as RE.
It is based on an earlier framework that is incompatible with RE unfortunately, also its GUI is very complex. Otherwise we would have released an RE for sure. At some point we thought about some kind of a DUNE 3 RE player with more limited controls (e.g. filter, ADSR etc) at a much lower price. Not sure that makes sense though, given the VST now works in Reason.

Richard

User avatar
dioxide
Posts: 1788
Joined: 15 Jul 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

I'm a RE only user with a couple of exceptions. I use VSTs for certain kinds of metering (phase, key detection) but these are temporary and are removed from the Song. The only two instruments I have are the Korg M1 and Wavestation VSTs. I'd have preferred to buy these as REs but as they're emulations that only Korg can do, I think there will never be a RE version.

So RE is my preference. I've wondered if I should be taking advantage of crossgrades to VSTs in case I ever have to switch DAW, but I think if this happens I'll most likely still be using REs in Reason Rack Plugin. Pricing wise I'd say keep your current prices. Crossgrades I can't really comment on as I don't use this option.

User avatar
MrFigg
Competition Winner
Posts: 9137
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 22 Nov 2023

DaveyG wrote:
22 Nov 2023
I've completely stopped buying REs so my preference would be the one you haven't offered: lower VST prices!
This is probably not the right thread to discuss the reason for my RE decision.
Same here…but you know what a deal can do :)
🗲 2ॐ ᛉ

User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

DaveyG wrote:
22 Nov 2023
I've completely stopped buying REs so my preference would be the one you haven't offered: lower VST prices!
Almost all developers have some or even all their plug-ins on sale right now. Some discounts I've seen are excessive, this does not look healthy. It may feel great to purchase a plug-in at 90% off, but it may well be the last plug-in you see from that developer ;)

Richard

User avatar
ekss
RE Developer
Posts: 545
Joined: 09 Nov 2015
Location: Stockholm

Post 22 Nov 2023

I use RE when ever possible. If I would ever need to switch to vst I would appreciate if there where a cross grade available.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11187
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
DaveyG wrote:
22 Nov 2023
I've completely stopped buying REs so my preference would be the one you haven't offered: lower VST prices!
Almost all developers have some or even all their plug-ins on sale right now. Some discounts I've seen are excessive, this does not look healthy. It may feel great to purchase a plug-in at 90% off, but it may well be the last plug-in you see from that developer ;)

Richard
Agree. Some of those RE are sold for 9 bucks ATM and the devs didn't released new stuff since quite a long time.

Some devs gave their stuff away for free and now sell VST only

The idea of the RE is great, but got stuck years ago. Complex devices like Dune cannot be done as RE. All Synapse RE can be installed with a press of a button and are working on all major platforms. All Synapse VSTs must be installed manually and registered manually, and please, do not create a App doing this for me, dice I already have plenty such apps installed and some of them are really sh!t...

But Dune wouldn't be possible as VCV rack module either. Maybe some parts on the other hand could be interesting...
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
DaveyG
Posts: 2536
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 22 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023


Almost all developers have some or even all their plug-ins on sale right now. Some discounts I've seen are excessive, this does not look healthy. It may feel great to purchase a plug-in at 90% off, but it may well be the last plug-in you see from that developer ;)

Richard
Agree. Some of those RE are sold for 9 bucks ATM and the devs didn't released new stuff since quite a long time.

Some devs gave their stuff away for free and now sell VST only

The idea of the RE is great, but got stuck years ago. Complex devices like Dune cannot be done as RE. All Synapse RE can be installed with a press of a button and are working on all major platforms. All Synapse VSTs must be installed manually and registered manually, and please, do not create a App doing this for me, dice I already have plenty such apps installed and some of them are really sh!t...

But Dune wouldn't be possible as VCV rack module either. Maybe some parts on the other hand could be interesting...
Even the REs at 9 bucks have not weakened my resolve to avoid buying any more REs. And I *always* love a bargain!

As for VCV and Voltage Modular, there are so many free modules it's hard to charge "proper" prices for premium modules. Great for users but off-putting for developers. Many of the devs on those platforms are hobbyists earning a bit of pocket money.

User avatar
Ottostrom
Posts: 847
Joined: 13 May 2016

Post 22 Nov 2023

I would call myself an RE exclusive user (avoiding VSTs except for a few essentials) and I wouldn't mind if the crossgrades disappeared. If I started using a different DAW then I wouldn't mind using the RRP for my REs

sycon
Posts: 58
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Yes, our plug-ins currently in development are still compatible with the RE format. We created our VST<>RE framework around 2015 or so and have not changed that since. Of course REs require a bunch of changes related to the UI, CVs etc, but the core is compatible. :)
Fantastic news!

I much prefer the RE format and try to avoid VSTs when I can. I crossgraded Obsession and The Legend to VST, but I have actually never used the VST versions. For me, the most important thing is that you continue to support the RE platform and therefore I obviously think that you should do what will benefit you the most.

User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
The idea of the RE is great, but got stuck years ago. Complex devices like Dune cannot be done as RE. All Synapse RE can be installed with a press of a button and are working on all major platforms. All Synapse VSTs must be installed manually and registered manually, and please, do not create a App doing this for me, dice I already have plenty such apps installed and some of them are really sh!t...
I always uninstall those "service" apps whereever possible, or at least remove them from Windows Autostart. For companies with dozens or hundreds of plug-ins, there is probably no other way to organize it though, so I understand why they are doing it this way.

For our DUNE 3 soundsets, the solution we chose is to simply build a dynamic installer on the fly. So if a user purchases five soundsets, those can be installed in one go, without requiring an external service app of some kind.

Richard

Steedus
Competition Winner
Posts: 1023
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne, AU

Post 22 Nov 2023

Honestly looking at some of the pricing (Blamsoft in particular), I had a moment of thought that "is this the 'last hurrah' of RE?" Kind of a, 'grab it now before it's taken off the shop' sort of thing. That's very doom and gloom, but it really does feel like it's only Ekss and Turn2On keeping the RE shop in business. I know that's unfair to alot of devs, but most of the time that's how it feels to me.

To answer the question though, could you not do a "crossgrade" fee if RE users want to grab the equivalent VST version? That way you could price RE a bit cheaper.

User avatar
SynapseAudio
RE Developer
Posts: 59
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

Steedus wrote:
22 Nov 2023
To answer the question though, could you not do a "crossgrade" fee if RE users want to grab the equivalent VST version? That way you could price RE a bit cheaper.
Yes, that would be the ideal solution. The issue is just that we have no automated way of doing this. Maybe we can work out something with RS, so that all RE customers get a crossgrade key or so along with their purchase.

Richard

User avatar
luckygreen
Posts: 107
Joined: 24 Jul 2023
Location: Germany

Post 22 Nov 2023

Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
...
The idea of the RE is great, but got stuck years ago. Complex devices like Dune cannot be done as RE.
Let's not forget the modular nature of the Reason Rack: Dune 3 comes with a sophisticated arpeggio and other great features inside the instrument itself. On the other hand, Synapse Antidote RE may be much smaller in scope but compensates with the flexibility of the Reason Rack: Some Antidote presets use the combinator and are made of three or more Antidotes and Thor for step sequencing and what not.
Loque wrote:
22 Nov 2023
... All Synapse VSTs must be installed manually and registered manually, and please, do not create a App doing this for me, dice I already have plenty such apps installed and some of them are really sh!t...
Agreed.

The best thing is give the user the installation-files, a license key and that's it. No pesky challenge-response-stituations with hidden activation counts. ... oh well ... that's another topic.
Reason 12 perpetual | Ableton Live 11 Suite
Lectric Panda Kompulsion, Nostromo, mDSQ, Shape | PinkNoise Maia Bundle | Reason Studios Objekt | Rob Papen Go2 | UJAM some RE | Synapse Audio AF-4, RE-160, Obsession | Andrew Russell Double Dry/Wet | Murf Valley Plateau

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1134
Joined: 02 Apr 2020

Post 22 Nov 2023

SynapseAudio wrote:
22 Nov 2023
Yes, our plug-ins currently in development are still compatible with the RE format. We created our VST<>RE framework around 2015 or so and have not changed that since. Of course REs require a bunch of changes related to the UI, CVs etc, but the core is compatible. :)
This is great news! Looking forward to buying it whatever it is!!! :thumbup: :clap:

[off-topic] is there someplace I could download the final version of Orion? I've hears so many good things about it, but it seems to have vanished from your website?

https://www.synapse-audio.com/news-orio ... utnow.html
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

User avatar
tt_lab
Posts: 335
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 22 Nov 2023

RE only user here. If in any future I would be forced to jump to vsts then I´ll be glad to pay a crossgrade for some of the most used REs in my arsenal (Deep Reverb and GQ7 for instance).
And please, put The Legend on sale already!! jk.

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests