Headphone Exclusive Setup

[Toki]

Hi all

Just joined the forums after barely using Reason since Propellerheads hosted their own forum on their website. Still recognise a few names though and cool to see the community still going strong.

Needless to say I am rusty AF. I sold my studio way back and have a ton of relearning to do. I upgraded to R13, but all I have is an M2 Mac and a set of …Beats Mixr.

I’m going to be limited to mixing on headphones for a while so I’m looking to buy a new set of phones, an audio interface, and potentially Sonarworks Sound ID. I’ve previously owned DT770 Pros and an 828 MKII so now I’m looking at DT880 / DT990 Pro X and a MOTU M2.

I was pretty set until I started reading deeper on here about frequency response curves, flatting said curves and headphone calibration tools.

So a couple of questions for those of you working exclusively with headphones.

1. How do you rate Sonarworks ( for composition and mixing)?
2. Assuming Sound ID will give my headphones options a similar response, would the jump in ohms from 48 to 250 make a significant difference in the detail I’ll hear between the 990 Pro X and 880s, even with those fancy new stellar drivers?

Appreciate any advice or links.
Cheers

Toki

[Popey]

I have used sonarworks in the past and it was OK in my opinion. I then tried realphones and that was OK too. I found both good for mixing and mastering purposes. I know realphones have a more recent version than what I previously used so that may have got better too.

I cannot remember if they have a trial but if so worth giving it a go.

Personally I have found slate vsx better and is now what I use for both purposes. They have a lot of detail in the low end for the music I make.

[Toki]

Nice one, Popey.

I’ll check out Realphones as they do offer a trial and it looks like I’d need to commit to buying VSX headphones to try their software. If the calibration software is definitely recommended by folks here I’d like to give it a run on my current set up before I splurge even more on hardware / new cans.

Using Sound ID I could hear a monster bass reduction on the Beats that was clear and obvious, I mean it’s the reason I bought them in the first place. Defo not for using with Reason to mix. But I’ve zero experience composing and mixing with calibrated headphones and the trial didn’t give me enough opportunity which is why I’m keen to hear from anyone about how calibration tools fit into their workflow.

Or is it just worth throwing that cash at higher end, flatter headphones and just adapting to the response?

It’s just one of those things that back in the day, I’d never even heard of using these kinds of tools, my local gear shop recommended 770s and that was it. So I’m a bit like, yeah I can hear something has changed but is this just marketing hype or are people getting solid results? I’m sure it’s legit but I’m getting older and more cynical.

[bxbrkrz]

Enjoy

[esme]

dt990

[tomusurp]

I mix and master a lot in my HD 650 headphones, a lot of it is because they are very comfortable, sound great and warm and that is also very important if you make and mix a lot of music like me (I know people will say you want the sound to be flat as possible, but they are still quite flat meaning there is no particular frequency that jumps out at you). I've tested many headphones above and below in price range. I also mix in ATH m50x which is closed back and meant for tracking but I find that it's also quite rich sounding to the competitors but one aspect of it is that the bass and sibilances in them is quite prominent. You may wonder if that would benefit with Sonarworks or Sound ID "correction" but I use the stock curve to my advantage as it lets me notice when I have too much sibilance or bass in a mix.

I find this is important because a lot of cheap buds and headphones will have some bass and high end boost. I've played many popular songs in something like apple buds and there were many apparent annoying resonances in vocals and snares. So although you can get Sonarworks or SoundID and I know how to use them as well but I decided not to as I don't think it's remotely necessary to mix well. Even my home studio is not acoustically treated perfectly. I have great gear but I even ended up putting my desk towards the corner a bit, a big no-no in home studio building, but I still followed the main principles of acoustic panel placement and strategically got bass traps to trap bass resonances which are more prominent in small rooms aka bedroom studios. And I only placed them on the front wall, corners and nearby side walls, so that it traps the resonances at the source.

Moral is since you won't be mixing on monitors anyway, you can absolutely start mixing and mastering off stock headphones frequency curves. Even if you never use SW or SID you would get used to the sound of your headphones and notice certain things about them and adjust accordingly in the mix just like I noticed the sibilance in ATH-m50x. Otherwise test out headphones if you can, choose one and get going. You can always trial SW or SID if you really want, if you like them use them. Plenty bedroom producers and engineers with hits out there who don't use frequency modding software

drop has a sale on their HD 6XX headphones if you like the HD 650. It's exactly the HD 650, just with some cheaper outer parts I think to make it more affordable. The HD 650 itself is usually about 400 https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx

[PhillipOrdonez]

Sonarworks is awesome. Not tried the others but can vouch you can get solid mixes with such software as long the headphones you got have a profile. I would go with the Beyerdynamic ones or any higher end brand with sonarworks (sound ID) first, and when you upgrade to monitors sonarworks got you covered there (with the studio edition and mic)

[selig]

There is no one “best headphones for mixing” as there is no one speaker for the same purpose. Everyone is different, and I compare monitors to shoes. The same shoes that fit my foot perfectly may cause issues on your feet.
Like shoes, you ultimately have to try them one before you can be 100% sure of the fit.

That said, and starting with the fact I know nothing about any of these systems, I’d decide on a system first, then buy the phones that are generally accepted to work the best with that system. Or consider a system like Slate VSF that includes headphones (for what SHOULD be the best integration since they control the entire system).

I’m more of a “simple as possible but not simpler” guy, so I’d skip all the ‘fancy stuff’ and just find the phones that sound closest to what I expect to hear. Bring your ‘mix tape’ to a music store and try different phones to at least get in the ball park with your personal choices, even if you’re not able to make a final decision. Be prepared for an adjustment period either way, same as with new speakers.

Side note: there’s still nothing like moving air with a speaker. Even a very basic bluetooth mono speaker will be very helpful in having a way to get out of the phones from time to time. You can keep the levels incredibly low when doing this, I find this process to be extremely revealing whether working on speakers or phones!

[bxbrkrz]

Not buying a spare of Sony MDR-V6 20 years ago was a mistake. Almost $500 new on Amazon is insane. This thread made me check and... wow
And no they are not great headphones at all far from it, but if you know... you know.

[Toki]

Thanks all, really appreciate the advice.

Although I have owned Beyers before I will probably take the advice and just take some tracks into a gear shop and try a few other brands. Comfort is a big one for me and I know Beyerdynamic will not fail me in that respect, and now they have detachable cables like on the Pro X series it’s another plus as this is what ultimately killed my last pair. Some of the other options do squeeze the old wallet a bit harder but maybe I can be swayed if there’s a significant jump in detail.

Tom, I have heard the arguments for just getting a solid pair of cans and adjusting, maybe that’s enough but I will give Sonarworks another trial if I can and maybe I can post some mixes here and get feedback with and without SIDR. I wonder if it’s more useful on something less flat like what I have now and less so on more mixing/master grade cans.

Selig, interesting that you mention even using a Bluetooth mono speaker from time to time. I have a Bose Soundlink Revolve which is bass heavy but it’s the only speaker I have right now, other than the car, so all my music at home gets pumped through it. I’ve attempted to use it in the past while writing and everything sounded like total crap (I knew it would). Then a few weeks ago after trying out a few mixes on cans I moved over to the Bose and it was interesting to hear how much closer I’d gotten to more commercial stuff. Except this time I was able to go back and make some tweaks based on what I expected to hear on the Bose and that really helped. It’s probably common practice to use a variety of speakers to test mixes where you expect to hear things played but I’d never done that before and it was super useful.

[rudiarii]

I'm headphone only at the moment. I use Shure SRH1840 for mixing and Beyer DT100 when recording. Last week I bought a pair of Steven Slate Audio VSX and I'm working with those now. Very impressed with them very comfortable and the range of studios to check sound on is good including iPhone and air pods etc. I have to agree with Selig though, there's nothing like moving air with speakers.

[RobC]

1. Your hearing adapts to the sound super fast, thus naturally "flattening" the frequency response curve. I literally have no clue why this is still a thing, but then again, the loudness war is also still a thing.

A professional engineer recommended the Audio-Technica ATH-E70, if you want premium quality sound. They are tripple driver, balanced armature in-ear monitors.

On AudioScienceReview I found the Topping E30 II DAC, and L30 II headphone amp. Both deliver premium quality and match the ATH-E70 beyond perfectly.

You don't need speakers at all. But they certainly are more fun, since you can feel the sub bass with your sense of touch.

Remember Andrew Schepps for example does his engineering work on 100~200 dollar Sony headphones.

That 'one can't mix on headphones', is nothing but a myth. But I will do a publication on this subject one day. Speaker manufacturers will partly hate me for it.

[Toki]

I'm headphone only at the moment. I use Shure SRH1840 for mixing and Beyer DT100 when recording. Last week I bought a pair of Steven Slate Audio VSX and I'm working with those now. Very impressed with them very comfortable and the range of studios to check sound on is good including iPhone and air pods etc. I have to agree with Selig though, there's nothing like moving air with speakers.

Yeah, 100% there's nothing like bathing in the sound from speakers. I miss my old studio. It's been so long since I've been fully invested and excited about writing that I'm gonna see if I keep this up before I start splurging real money on the sexy stuff. As easy as that is for me to do – I really don't need much convincing. That and buying a detached house with a dedicated office/basement will release me from the guilt of pissing off my neighbours. All in good time...

1. Your hearing adapts to the sound super fast, thus naturally "flattening" the frequency response curve. I literally have no clue why this is still a thing, but then again, the loudness war is also still a thing.

A professional engineer recommended the Audio-Technica ATH-E70, if you want premium quality sound. They are tripple driver, balanced armature in-ear monitors.

On AudioScienceReview I found the Topping E30 II DAC, and L30 II headphone amp. Both deliver premium quality and match the ATH-E70 beyond perfectly.

You don't need speakers at all. But they certainly are more fun, since you can feel the sub bass with your sense of touch.

Remember Andrew Schepps for example does his engineering work on 100~200 dollar Sony headphones.

That 'one can't mix on headphones', is nothing but a myth. But I will do a publication on this subject one day. Speaker manufacturers will partly hate me for it.

I agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to produce a solid mix on headphones alone. I've heard plenty of professionals say it and it seems there's plenty of folk here who agree too, but it's nice to have the choice and give the old ears a break. Also just hearing a different soundstage, like comparing your mix on different systems helps. I'm still on the fence about adapting to the standard frequency response or getting calibration tools. Not that I think your ears don't adapt, I believe it, I just don't know how much I trust my ears these days and the thought of just going in with a nice, relatively flat level seems like it reduces some mental anxiety or doubt, like I know I have this baseline and I'm not second guessing myself. We'll see, I've got some experimenting to do but lots of food for thought here and it's been great to sound this out with folks here.

[Fotu]

I use and like Sonarworks (for both headphone and monitor calibrations).

Keep in mind that with Sonarworks (and likely similar packages) you can add your own EQ on top of whatever it uses for a flat calibration, and thus add any kind of intentional coloration that might be useful for your purposes. This gives you the confidence of starting with a flat baseline that you otherwise might not have if just picking headphones or monitors that subjectively 'sound great'. For example, I'll add a shelf high EQ boost if I'm focused on tweaking things in that range (and to compensate for my old ears .

[selig]

…Selig, interesting that you mention even using a Bluetooth mono speaker from time to time. I have a Bose Soundlink Revolve which is bass heavy but it’s the only speaker I have right now, other than the car, so all my music at home gets pumped through it. I’ve attempted to use it in the past while writing and everything sounded like total crap (I knew it would). Then a few weeks ago after trying out a few mixes on cans I moved over to the Bose and it was interesting to hear how much closer I’d gotten to more commercial stuff. Except this time I was able to go back and make some tweaks based on what I expected to hear on the Bose and that really helped. It’s probably common practice to use a variety of speakers to test mixes where you expect to hear things played but I’d never done that before and it was super useful.

Switching between monitors/phones is really the only way to mix IMO. Some say it is so your mix 'translates' well, but I don't like that term. It implies the mix should essentially sound the same on every system, which is never gonna happen IMO.

So I instead like to say I want the mix to "work well" on all systems. No way will a super wide bass heavy mix translates well to a tiny mono speaker. But your mix CAN still 'work' on that tiny speaker if things are done with that intention. No, it won't be the same mix, but it should still work! Some elements may go away, some may change perspective/balance - but the idea is it should still work as a mix. And the only way to know if you're in the ballpark is to listen on different systems.

In the end I am still making compromises in the mix to accommodate the different systems, just as before. But I am no longer chasing my tail trying to get the mix to sound the same on all systems.
As always, the key with all your listening options is in being familiar with each, and you do that by playing your reference mixes regularly.
Bottom line, if this part is done well then you will never be surprised at how your mix sounds when you first hear it on different systems.

[RobC]

I'm headphone only at the moment. I use Shure SRH1840 for mixing and Beyer DT100 when recording. Last week I bought a pair of Steven Slate Audio VSX and I'm working with those now. Very impressed with them very comfortable and the range of studios to check sound on is good including iPhone and air pods etc. I have to agree with Selig though, there's nothing like moving air with speakers.

Yeah, 100% there's nothing like bathing in the sound from speakers. I miss my old studio. It's been so long since I've been fully invested and excited about writing that I'm gonna see if I keep this up before I start splurging real money on the sexy stuff. As easy as that is for me to do – I really don't need much convincing. That and buying a detached house with a dedicated office/basement will release me from the guilt of pissing off my neighbours. All in good time...

1. Your hearing adapts to the sound super fast, thus naturally "flattening" the frequency response curve. I literally have no clue why this is still a thing, but then again, the loudness war is also still a thing.

A professional engineer recommended the Audio-Technica ATH-E70, if you want premium quality sound. They are tripple driver, balanced armature in-ear monitors.

On AudioScienceReview I found the Topping E30 II DAC, and L30 II headphone amp. Both deliver premium quality and match the ATH-E70 beyond perfectly.

You don't need speakers at all. But they certainly are more fun, since you can feel the sub bass with your sense of touch.

Remember Andrew Schepps for example does his engineering work on 100~200 dollar Sony headphones.

That 'one can't mix on headphones', is nothing but a myth. But I will do a publication on this subject one day. Speaker manufacturers will partly hate me for it.

I agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to produce a solid mix on headphones alone. I've heard plenty of professionals say it and it seems there's plenty of folk here who agree too, but it's nice to have the choice and give the old ears a break. Also just hearing a different soundstage, like comparing your mix on different systems helps. I'm still on the fence about adapting to the standard frequency response or getting calibration tools. Not that I think your ears don't adapt, I believe it, I just don't know how much I trust my ears these days and the thought of just going in with a nice, relatively flat level seems like it reduces some mental anxiety or doubt, like I know I have this baseline and I'm not second guessing myself. We'll see, I've got some experimenting to do but lots of food for thought here and it's been great to sound this out with folks here.

You can do the rest of the tasks, too. Just look at the frequency response of whatever you buy, because many headphones cut hard into the lower sub bass region.
The IEMs I mentioned, do not.
This is important, because although our ears adapt, with "mixing" headphones that cut the bass, my ears were pretty fatigued, since I had to turn it up to hear a proper bass response.
If you need to EQ the lows, to compensate, then you will get booming/ringing. This is why engineers (also) said on here to stay away from EQ.
If you get something that sounds best for your ears (and budget), then it likely matches your hearing.
Remember, even each ear can have a different frequency response curve; same with each individual speaker, not the stereo pair (be it a near or far field; headphones, or IEMs).

Other than hearing protection, or extremely bad response, I'm not sure what else what these curves matter. As you listen, yourhearing adapts even to a bad mix.
Simply do a "flush", by listening to other mixes that you trust, or go outside and listen to real life sounds - the best reference and refreshing for ears, IMO.

But yeah, there are so many factors to consider, yet it's simpler than we think, lol.

I plan to buy more speakers, too, still.

[Toki]

I use and like Sonarworks (for both headphone and monitor calibrations).

Keep in mind that with Sonarworks (and likely similar packages) you can add your own EQ on top of whatever it uses for a flat calibration, and thus add any kind of intentional coloration that might be useful for your purposes. This gives you the confidence of starting with a flat baseline that you otherwise might not have if just picking headphones or monitors that subjectively 'sound great'. For example, I'll add a shelf high EQ boost if I'm focused on tweaking things in that range (and to compensate for my old ears .

This is a good point about tweaking for older ears by compensating with EQ. I hadn’t considered that but I’ll play around with the idea when I get more consistent studio time.

…Selig, interesting that you mention even using a Bluetooth mono speaker from time to time. I have a Bose Soundlink Revolve which is bass heavy but it’s the only speaker I have right now, other than the car, so all my music at home gets pumped through it. I’ve attempted to use it in the past while writing and everything sounded like total crap (I knew it would). Then a few weeks ago after trying out a few mixes on cans I moved over to the Bose and it was interesting to hear how much closer I’d gotten to more commercial stuff. Except this time I was able to go back and make some tweaks based on what I expected to hear on the Bose and that really helped. It’s probably common practice to use a variety of speakers to test mixes where you expect to hear things played but I’d never done that before and it was super useful.

Switching between monitors/phones is really the only way to mix IMO. Some say it is so your mix 'translates' well, but I don't like that term. It implies the mix should essentially sound the same on every system, which is never gonna happen IMO.

So I instead like to say I want the mix to "work well" on all systems. No way will a super wide bass heavy mix translates well to a tiny mono speaker. But your mix CAN still 'work' on that tiny speaker if things are done with that intention. No, it won't be the same mix, but it should still work! Some elements may go away, some may change perspective/balance - but the idea is it should still work as a mix. And the only way to know if you're in the ballpark is to listen on different systems.

In the end I am still making compromises in the mix to accommodate the different systems, just as before. But I am no longer chasing my tail trying to get the mix to sound the same on all systems.
As always, the key with all your listening options is in being familiar with each, and you do that by playing your reference mixes regularly.
Bottom line, if this part is done well then you will never be surprised at how your mix sounds when you first hear it on different systems.

Thanks again for the advice, for sure I’m going to give this more thought too. I noticed Sonar Works has these various system profiles on there so perhaps it’s worth a shot even for that. But yeah, finding a sweet spot between a few different systems makes total sense.

Yeah, 100% there's nothing like bathing in the sound from speakers. I miss my old studio. It's been so long since I've been fully invested and excited about writing that I'm gonna see if I keep this up before I start splurging real money on the sexy stuff. As easy as that is for me to do – I really don't need much convincing. That and buying a detached house with a dedicated office/basement will release me from the guilt of pissing off my neighbours. All in good time...



I agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to produce a solid mix on headphones alone. I've heard plenty of professionals say it and it seems there's plenty of folk here who agree too, but it's nice to have the choice and give the old ears a break. Also just hearing a different soundstage, like comparing your mix on different systems helps. I'm still on the fence about adapting to the standard frequency response or getting calibration tools. Not that I think your ears don't adapt, I believe it, I just don't know how much I trust my ears these days and the thought of just going in with a nice, relatively flat level seems like it reduces some mental anxiety or doubt, like I know I have this baseline and I'm not second guessing myself. We'll see, I've got some experimenting to do but lots of food for thought here and it's been great to sound this out with folks here.

You can do the rest of the tasks, too. Just look at the frequency response of whatever you buy, because many headphones cut hard into the lower sub bass region.
The IEMs I mentioned, do not.
This is important, because although our ears adapt, with "mixing" headphones that cut the bass, my ears were pretty fatigued, since I had to turn it up to hear a proper bass response.
If you need to EQ the lows, to compensate, then you will get booming/ringing. This is why engineers (also) said on here to stay away from EQ.
If you get something that sounds best for your ears (and budget), then it likely matches your hearing.
Remember, even each ear can have a different frequency response curve; same with each individual speaker, not the stereo pair (be it a near or far field; headphones, or IEMs).

Other than hearing protection, or extremely bad response, I'm not sure what else what these curves matter. As you listen, yourhearing adapts even to a bad mix.
Simply do a "flush", by listening to other mixes that you trust, or go outside and listen to real life sounds - the best reference and refreshing for ears, IMO.

But yeah, there are so many factors to consider, yet it's simpler than we think, lol.

I plan to buy more speakers, too, still.

Cheers Rob, I’ll take this into consideration. I think I just need to play around and see what works. I’ll defo invest in some new headphones probably in the 300€ range and perhaps give Sonar Works a whirl. I guess if I catch it in a sale it’s not gonna be such a large expense if I end up not using it.

I think my mixes have massively improved recently while I’ve been trialling SW but then I’ve also been reading a lot about EQ, so could be that.

Thanks again all, appreciate the comments and I’ll have to post a track soon and get some critical feedback