finding similar preset feature

[ebeneezer]

So, Ableton 12 has a feature where the user can load a patch, then users can hit a button and the user is offered patches that are similar in sound which they can then listen to. I don't use Ableton 12 so don't know how well this works but wouldn't this be so useful to have in Reason? Reason has so many synths that's impossible to go through the presets of every single one searching for sound you're after.

This isn't actually a feature request I've seen others make all that often, and it doesn't appear on the facebook Features Request form, the only one that's even close is "Browser update (tags, improved search)" option, which has only 1% of the vote. Is this a niche request, or could this be massively useful? If it could be useful it we should let the ReasonStudios people know!

[selig]

I think this would be a great idea, and a positive way to add AI type technology to Reason. Anything that helps you better explore the vast options available is a good thing, especially something like this that only requires you to make a single choice. If you can keep refining your search even better.

So the workflow would be as follows:
You find a patch you like but may not quite be 'right'
You 'request' some optional 'sound alike' patches and are presented with the best four suggestions and you choose the one or two that best match your goals and repeat the search.
You mark a few as 'potential' along the way so you can return to them later just in case.
This is a basic iterative process of elimination and refinement of the goal.

This is one of those helpful features that would not require you to do much more than just point at the options you like. You wouldn't have to type keywords or choose options from a list. But you WOULD have to choose a patch to start with. But this would require some serious up-front work and machine learning because the system needs to "hear" each and every patch in the library, and differentiate between mono/poly patches, single patches and splits/drum maps, and playable (piano/pad/bass/etc) vs auto-play (guitar strumming patterns, REX loop playing) patches.

I really wish RS had been forward thinking and added tags to the FSB - it just keeps getting bigger, and so is the job of tagging it for more in depth and targeted patch searches (Native Instruments is a good model for tag based systems IMO).

[DaveyG]

It's a good idea and, yeah, tags would be good too. RS could harness the power of "the crowd" to get the FSB tags done. We could all contribute some and they could use the most common ones for each sound. There would be a few anomalies but it would probably turn out quite well.

I agree with Giles that building up a database of similar sounds would require a fair bit of effort on the part of RS, especially if you want the ability to find similar sounds across different synths. Maybe they'd have to do an NKS thing where every preset has an audio preview regardless of what synth it is for.

Another similar feature that doesn't appear on enough synths is a "mutate" button. NI's Absynth is a really good example of this.
You find a sound you like then mutate will change that sound a small amount. You can keep hitting mutate and then cycle back through the different sounds, choosing your favourite. Plenty of synths have randomising options but mutate just tweaks what you start with rather than making dramatic changes. It's really effective. Of course, mutate would be best implemented in each synth rather than at a browser level.

So many options. I guess tags would be the easiest for RS to implement.

[antic604]

Assuming it actually uses AI (instead of matching the tags, which still isn't clear), it would be difficult in Reason. Live has an audio file accompanying every factory preset, so it can know how a preset sounds without having to load the instrument & that particular preset.

[ebeneezer]

So the workflow would be as follows:
You find a patch you like but may not quite be 'right'
You 'request' some optional 'sound alike' patches and are presented with the best four suggestions and you choose the one or two that best match your goals and repeat the search.
You mark a few as 'potential' along the way so you can return to them later just in case.
This is a basic iterative process of elimination and refinement of the goal.

Yes, I'd thought something along those lines, you find a starting point, then get some candidate similar ones, then iterate and refine your search. A bit of trial and error but nothing much as like as you have to do at the moment. In some ways the job of finding good sounds is harder than eg in the 80s or 90s because there's been such an expansion in music genres. I don't make eg trance or trap music but I still have to spend time listening to (and rejecting) those presets while looking for a preset that I do actually want!

The tag versus AI method is interesting. The AI method could involve waveform analysis (I think it's Fourier analysis) where you reverse engineer the waveform of the preset to infer properties eg how fast its attack is, whether it's got detuned oscillators, if it has eg two tones a fifth/octave apart, how bright the sound is, does it have vibrato etc. Both the tagging and AI method would involve building a database of traits associated with each preset, which feels .. doable? But with the AI method maybe there could be a tool where when you use a VST, you could run a 'registration' procedure where Reason simulates playing each preset and then populates the database with the metadata for each preset of the VST. Sounds quite tricky to implement and probably is but would be cool.

[robussc]

I dunno, I guess when I have a preset that's close to what I want I just tweak it a bit until it's what I'm looking for?

Though I did go through a long process of building a sound bank that has patches I'm excited to use, so I guess I did a bunch of the labor an AI might have saved me

A tagging system would have helped that process a lot!

[antic604]

I dunno, I guess when I have a preset that's close to what I want I just tweak it a bit until it's what I'm looking for?

This is obviously a good tip, but how it works in Live 12 (based on patch audio previews) opens up the door to "happy accidents", so you get e.g. sounds that sound similar, but are produced by a completely different device and FX chain.

So in Reason-land it would be the equivalent of looking for a replacement of sampled kick and getting an Objekt-synthesized one.

No amount of patch tweaking would give you that