RRP limitations

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SebAudio
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Post 14 Aug 2022

Since using RRP with another DAW is one of the "advised" way to experience the Reason Rack, I'd like to share some thoughts about why RRP is not exactly the same as using the rack inside of reason itself.

Automation (and remote ctrl) parameter names
there’s what seems to be a bug in that the name of the automated parameters are not stored correctly : they’re named « param100x » instead of « filter cutoff ». And the names are prefixed with the device name to sort parameters with the sam-y names (the shell…). That’s making automation as bad as using CC numbers.

Patches changes (previous, next patch)
not all DAWs allow to remote change the current patch, but even if you use one which does, what is a "RRP patch" ? it doesn't exist.
If such a concept existed, it still exists the problem of remote changing a patch of a specific device inside the rack.

Navigation between devices inside the same RRP
Since RRP is a "container" for instruments and or FXs, you'd (sometimes) want to "navigate" to the previous or next device as you do easily inside Reason thanks to Remote.
As of today, there’s no way to « move » from one device to the other except using the mouse. With VSTs you use the « native » DAW navigation scheme and so hw controllers just allow you to use buttons, knobs to go from one device to another.

Multi column rack
Since v6 Reason rack is multi-column... RRP 1-column rack is Reason (v1) Revival Plague ! (just a joke, Reason v1 was great ! at the time)

I've been using Reason since v1 then stopped at 6.5 and comeback with 12 thanks to its HD graphics RRP.
But I see myself relying (and buying) more on "separate" VSTs because the "shell / container" aspect of the RRP made the experience worse.

Do you have any "tricks" to overcome those limitations ? in an other thread, somebody's suggested to use a combinator for the 1st limitation but it doesn't work either.

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huggermugger
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Post 14 Aug 2022

Logic is able to recognize and display the names of parameters in each device. Unfortunately, since it lists them alphabetically and also lists Param #### for the unidentified ones, any device using a patch with a name that follows "P-a-r-a-m" alphabetically (such as the Monotone patch Pulse Bottom in this example) doesn't appear. In fact, if I scroll down all the way to the bottom of the Param ## section, scrolling freezes. I think Logic gives up on the insanely long list. For some ungodly reason, Props decided to offer up almost 2000 unique parameters, thus making the whole exercise pretty much pointless.

Screen Shot 2022-08-14 at 2.02.07 PM.jpg

As for multi column, I'd be happy with a window that could be resized. Props worked their asses off to give us HD in R12, but the RRP window can't be resized? wtf? If Props really expects 3rd party DAW customers to embrace the RRP, they've got a lot of amateur nonsense to clean up.
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Billy+
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Post 14 Aug 2022

huggermugger wrote:
14 Aug 2022
they've got a lot of amateur nonsense to clean up.
:lol:

Yeah on paper RRP should be good but after buying Live 11 suite this year as R12 wasn't/isn't worth the upgrade price I've actually found myself reaching for vst's and Live internal devices over RRP in just about every case.
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zoidkirb
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Post 14 Aug 2022

Right click and assign parameter in Combinator 2 is missing in RRP.
This was a big touted feature for Reason 12.

No Vst inside RRP is a big limitation also.

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StephenHutchinson
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Post 15 Aug 2022

huggermugger wrote:
14 Aug 2022
Logic is able to recognize and display the names of parameters in each device. Unfortunately, since it lists them alphabetically and also lists Param #### for the unidentified ones, any device using a patch with a name that follows "P-a-r-a-m" alphabetically (such as the Monotone patch Pulse Bottom in this example) doesn't appear. In fact, if I scroll down all the way to the bottom of the Param ## section, scrolling freezes. I think Logic gives up on the insanely long list. For some ungodly reason, Props decided to offer up almost 2000 unique parameters, thus making the whole exercise pretty much pointless.


Screen Shot 2022-08-14 at 2.02.07 PM.jpg


As for multi column, I'd be happy with a window that could be resized. Props worked their asses off to give us HD in R12, but the RRP window can't be resized? wtf? If Props really expects 3rd party DAW customers to embrace the RRP, they've got a lot of amateur nonsense to clean up.
You may need to update your RRP... scaling is definitely in there... and it is gorgeous... I notice that your RRP doesn't have the Zoom button.

RRP in Bitwig:
RRP-Zoom.jpg
ZOOMED to 180%:

RRP+Zoom2.jpg
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SebAudio
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Post 15 Aug 2022

huggermugger wrote:
14 Aug 2022
Logic is able to recognize and display the names of parameters in each device. Unfortunately, since it lists them alphabetically and also lists Param #### for the unidentified ones, any device using a patch with a name that follows "P-a-r-a-m" alphabetically (such as the Monotone patch Pulse Bottom in this example) doesn't appear. In fact, if I scroll down all the way to the bottom of the Param ## section, scrolling freezes. I think Logic gives up on the insanely long list. For some ungodly reason, Props decided to offer up almost 2000 unique parameters, thus making the whole exercise pretty much pointless.
When creating devices, names are « ok » (with the less than adequate naming rules) in Live. It’s when I reopen a song which contains automation that the names are replaced with generic names paramxxx. If owners of Logic and Bitwig (and other DAWs) have time and envy to verify the problem exists in their DAW, I could refer to this thread when reported to RS.

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DaveyG
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Post 15 Aug 2022

zoidkirb wrote:
14 Aug 2022
No Vst inside RRP is a big limitation also.
Yep, I have old Combis with VSTs that only work with the standalone.

I can achieve the same end result by passing stuff between one or more RRPs and Studio One but I can't save that combination as a preset or building block. So where I have a player that drives a VST that drives a Reason effect I now have an RRP with just the player, the VST in Studio One and then another RRP just to apply the effect(s). It's a big enough PITA that I rarely do it. An alternative solution would have been Rewire but.... :(

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zoidkirb
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Post 15 Aug 2022

DaveyG wrote:
15 Aug 2022
zoidkirb wrote:
14 Aug 2022
No Vst inside RRP is a big limitation also.
Yep, I have old Combis with VSTs that only work with the standalone.

I can achieve the same end result by passing stuff between one or more RRPs and Studio One but I can't save that combination as a preset or building block. So where I have a player that drives a VST that drives a Reason effect I now have an RRP with just the player, the VST in Studio One and then another RRP just to apply the effect(s). It's a big enough PITA that I rarely do it. An alternative solution would have been Rewire but.... :(
Exactly. There's always a workaround but personally why waste time when I can use the in-built rack system of Live, and freely use a mix of Vst and Ableton devices. If there was Vst in RRP, I'd definitely use it a lot more than now, and I'd like to swap Combi patches (including Vst) between RRP and Reason.

jlgrimes
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Post 15 Aug 2022

SebAudio wrote:
14 Aug 2022
Since using RRP with another DAW is one of the "advised" way to experience the Reason Rack, I'd like to share some thoughts about why RRP is not exactly the same as using the rack inside of reason itself.

Automation (and remote ctrl) parameter names
there’s what seems to be a bug in that the name of the automated parameters are not stored correctly : they’re named « param100x » instead of « filter cutoff ». And the names are prefixed with the device name to sort parameters with the sam-y names (the shell…). That’s making automation as bad as using CC numbers.

Patches changes (previous, next patch)
not all DAWs allow to remote change the current patch, but even if you use one which does, what is a "RRP patch" ? it doesn't exist.
If such a concept existed, it still exists the problem of remote changing a patch of a specific device inside the rack.

Navigation between devices inside the same RRP
Since RRP is a "container" for instruments and or FXs, you'd (sometimes) want to "navigate" to the previous or next device as you do easily inside Reason thanks to Remote.
As of today, there’s no way to « move » from one device to the other except using the mouse. With VSTs you use the « native » DAW navigation scheme and so hw controllers just allow you to use buttons, knobs to go from one device to another.

Multi column rack
Since v6 Reason rack is multi-column... RRP 1-column rack is Reason (v1) Revival Plague ! (just a joke, Reason v1 was great ! at the time)

I've been using Reason since v1 then stopped at 6.5 and comeback with 12 thanks to its HD graphics RRP.
But I see myself relying (and buying) more on "separate" VSTs because the "shell / container" aspect of the RRP made the experience worse.

Do you have any "tricks" to overcome those limitations ? in an other thread, somebody's suggested to use a combinator for the 1st limitation but it doesn't work either.

Yeah there are some limitations that kind of hurt RRP.


1. Non resizable Browser, Reason's browser is resizable in standalone but the RRP is not. This is most likely a VST limitation as I don't know too many VSTs with resizable browsers but that said most VSTs have various methods of dealing with the limitations to where you don't need resize. I would think for a product as extensive as Reason, a more modern browser would need to be needed. I was hoping for RS's improved browser that they decided not to implement, as it seems like that they were probably already aware of these issues.

2. No Sampling, Sample Editing, REX editing. This makes Reason's older sampler modules more cumbersome to use as they have a more "older" style workflow as most built-in DAWs have a basic Sampler with rudimentary waveform editing built-in. I'm guessing the No Sampling is probably a VST limitation (that said Geist came up with creative ways around this limiation, but Geist is pretty buggy so might not be the best example), but at a minimum Samples should be easily editable somehow. Also a way to edit REX files is becoming more important in Standalone and Plug-in. A way to Merge Recycle into Mimic too would also be nice. Certain few key improvements could turn RRP into a Sampling Powerhouse, but sampling needs to be editable both from a WAV and REX perspective.

3. No VST hosting. I'm guessing most RRP users would prefer to host VSTs right inside of RRP. I'm sure there are technical reasons for not including this, but this would be alot easier than having to use multiple tracks in Ableton to put a player on a VST. Maschine/Komplete VST allows this so this should be doable.

4. Pattern device parameters shows up as "floating point parameters than integers". This makes it harder to do pattern/player automation in RRP vs Reason, where in Reason patterns are directly choosable from an automation perspective (as Players are fully integrated into Reason). This wouldn't be that bad if patterns where integer values but a float value is much harder to decipher.

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jam-s
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Post 15 Aug 2022

jlgrimes wrote:
15 Aug 2022
4. Pattern device parameters shows up as "floating point parameters than integers". This makes it harder to do pattern/player automation in RRP vs Reason, where in Reason patterns are directly choosable from an automation perspective (as Players are fully integrated into Reason). This wouldn't be that bad if patterns where integer values but a float value is much harder to decipher.
I think this cannot be easily solved as the VST standard does not know anything about patterns. Maybe some internal remapping inside the RRP could at least map it to integers, but this would then most likely have to be done on a per device basis which would hardly work for REs.

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huggermugger
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Post 15 Aug 2022

StephenHutchinson wrote:
15 Aug 2022

You may need to update your RRP... scaling is definitely in there... and it is gorgeous... I notice that your RRP doesn't have the Zoom button.
Yeah, I'm still in R11. But actually, I was referring to not being able to adjust the window and get rid of the wasted space.
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StephenHutchinson
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Post 15 Aug 2022

huggermugger wrote:
15 Aug 2022
StephenHutchinson wrote:
15 Aug 2022

You may need to update your RRP... scaling is definitely in there... and it is gorgeous... I notice that your RRP doesn't have the Zoom button.
Yeah, I'm still in R11. But actually, I was referring to not being able to adjust the window and get rid of the wasted space.
Ah, I hear you... that is super annoying!
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QVprod
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Post 15 Aug 2022

DaveyG wrote:
15 Aug 2022
zoidkirb wrote:
14 Aug 2022
No Vst inside RRP is a big limitation also.
Yep, I have old Combis with VSTs that only work with the standalone.

I can achieve the same end result by passing stuff between one or more RRPs and Studio One but I can't save that combination as a preset or building block. So where I have a player that drives a VST that drives a Reason effect I now have an RRP with just the player, the VST in Studio One and then another RRP just to apply the effect(s). It's a big enough PITA that I rarely do it. An alternative solution would have been Rewire but.... :(
This may or may not make your day, but you can save that as a multi-instrument in Studio One. That will load up the entire instrument/effect chain.

I think the thing with the RPP is you have to think of it as an extension of the DAW you’re using (like every other plug-in) rather than in the traditional Reason sense.

As far as control though, if you happen to be a panorama user, Nektarine maps to RRP or at the least the first instrument in the chain. It’s the one practical advantage Nektarine has if you don’t mind using a plug-in wrapper. But it does present an additional way of saving RRP presets.

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DaveyG
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Post 15 Aug 2022

QVprod wrote:
15 Aug 2022
DaveyG wrote:
15 Aug 2022


Yep, I have old Combis with VSTs that only work with the standalone.

I can achieve the same end result by passing stuff between one or more RRPs and Studio One but I can't save that combination as a preset or building block. So where I have a player that drives a VST that drives a Reason effect I now have an RRP with just the player, the VST in Studio One and then another RRP just to apply the effect(s). It's a big enough PITA that I rarely do it. An alternative solution would have been Rewire but.... :(
This may or may not make your day, but you can save that as a multi-instrument in Studio One. That will load up the entire instrument chain.
It's a good thought but I don't think it will work in this case because the RRP and the VST it drives have to be on separate tracks. I don't think the multi-instruments thing will let you route MIDI between the blocks. All you can do is key splits and use the built-in MIDI fx. Thanks for the suggestion though :thumbup:

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QVprod
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Post 15 Aug 2022

DaveyG wrote:
15 Aug 2022
QVprod wrote:
15 Aug 2022


This may or may not make your day, but you can save that as a multi-instrument in Studio One. That will load up the entire instrument chain.
It's a good thought but I don't think it will work in this case because the RRP and the VST it drives have to be on separate tracks. I don't think the multi-instruments thing will let you route MIDI between the blocks. All you can do is key splits and use the built-in MIDI fx. Thanks for the suggestion though :thumbup:
Ah I missed the RPP as a player part. Yeah I wish S1 would open that functionality to 3rd parties. RPP can run as midi fx in Logic and Luna.

electrofux
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Post 25 Aug 2022

Last time i checked (with Bitwig i think) RRP only exposed a fraction of device parameters to the DAW for remote controlling than Reason does.
I digged a bit deeper and it looked like it only exposes parameters that have a Midi CC associated to it in the Midi Implementation.

Has that changed?

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rcbuse
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Post 25 Aug 2022

electrofux wrote:
25 Aug 2022
Last time i checked (with Bitwig i think) RRP only exposed a fraction of device parameters to the DAW for remote controlling than Reason does.
I digged a bit deeper and it looked like it only exposes parameters that have a Midi CC associated to it in the Midi Implementation.

Has that changed?
I'm using bitwig and all the parameters that are exposed are the same parameters that are available for Automation and combinator targets in Reason. Those have associated midi CCs internally. Those are not the same as a devices "Remotable" parameters in Reason.

electrofux
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Post 25 Aug 2022

rcbuse wrote:
25 Aug 2022
electrofux wrote:
25 Aug 2022
Last time i checked (with Bitwig i think) RRP only exposed a fraction of device parameters to the DAW for remote controlling than Reason does.
I digged a bit deeper and it looked like it only exposes parameters that have a Midi CC associated to it in the Midi Implementation.

Has that changed?
Those are not the same as a devices "Remotable" parameters in Reason.
Thats what i meant. I have a beautiful launchpad map for Step Note Recorder but no way i could translate that to RRP even if i digged deep into the other DAWs API.

Jac459
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Post 25 Aug 2022

electrofux wrote:
25 Aug 2022
rcbuse wrote:
25 Aug 2022

Those are not the same as a devices "Remotable" parameters in Reason.
Thats what i meant. I have a beautiful launchpad map for Step Note Recorder but no way i could translate that to RRP even if i digged deep into the other DAWs API.
Mmm, I am not really sure which parameters you are referring to. As far as I know Bitwig shows all parameters.
At least I remember than when I did the remote map for my Akai mpk mk3, all the parameters I found, I now find them in bitwig (except that creating the map is much much much easier as I don't have to write code but just drag and drop to create my parameter pages...).
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Jac459
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Post 25 Aug 2022

SebAudio wrote:
15 Aug 2022
huggermugger wrote:
14 Aug 2022
Logic is able to recognize and display the names of parameters in each device. Unfortunately, since it lists them alphabetically and also lists Param #### for the unidentified ones, any device using a patch with a name that follows "P-a-r-a-m" alphabetically (such as the Monotone patch Pulse Bottom in this example) doesn't appear. In fact, if I scroll down all the way to the bottom of the Param ## section, scrolling freezes. I think Logic gives up on the insanely long list. For some ungodly reason, Props decided to offer up almost 2000 unique parameters, thus making the whole exercise pretty much pointless.
When creating devices, names are « ok » (with the less than adequate naming rules) in Live. It’s when I reopen a song which contains automation that the names are replaced with generic names paramxxx. If owners of Logic and Bitwig (and other DAWs) have time and envy to verify the problem exists in their DAW, I could refer to this thread when reported to RS.
I just tried to reproduce by creating a new song, adding a RRP with few parameters. I close the song and bitwig. I reopen, the parameters name are still there and correct. Do you want me to try something else ?
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

electrofux
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Post 25 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
25 Aug 2022
electrofux wrote:
25 Aug 2022


Thats what i meant. I have a beautiful launchpad map for Step Note Recorder but no way i could translate that to RRP even if i digged deep into the other DAWs API.
Mmm, I am not really sure which parameters you are referring to. As far as I know Bitwig shows all parameters.
At least I remember than when I did the remote map for my Akai mpk mk3, all the parameters I found, I now find them in bitwig (except that creating the map is much much much easier as I don't have to write code but just drag and drop to create my parameter pages...).
Drop in a Kong into Reason and go remote_info.txt through the menu. It shows around 1000 parameters that can be remoted with Reason.
Now drop in a Kong into RRP and count the available Parameters. It should be less, alot less and as i said last time i checked Btwig showed like the first 250 parameters of the remote_info.txt file. But maybe it has changed.

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SebAudio
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Post 25 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
25 Aug 2022
SebAudio wrote:
15 Aug 2022


When creating devices, names are « ok » (with the less than adequate naming rules) in Live. It’s when I reopen a song which contains automation that the names are replaced with generic names paramxxx. If owners of Logic and Bitwig (and other DAWs) have time and envy to verify the problem exists in their DAW, I could refer to this thread when reported to RS.
I just tried to reproduce by creating a new song, adding a RRP with few parameters. I close the song and bitwig. I reopen, the parameters name are still there and correct. Do you want me to try something else ?
Thank you ! So in Bitwig it’s ok. It must have something to do with the « init / loading » of VSTs in Live perhaps. RS would not take into account a problem which occurs with some DAWs and not others (there’s a similar problem with macros mapped on a RRP device, I’ve told them, they’ve responded I have to deal with Ableton).
Too bad I don’t feel right with Bitwig because the remote control of VST parameters is far advanced than Live’s one !

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rcbuse
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Post 25 Aug 2022

electrofux wrote:
25 Aug 2022
Jac459 wrote:
25 Aug 2022


Mmm, I am not really sure which parameters you are referring to. As far as I know Bitwig shows all parameters.
At least I remember than when I did the remote map for my Akai mpk mk3, all the parameters I found, I now find them in bitwig (except that creating the map is much much much easier as I don't have to write code but just drag and drop to create my parameter pages...).
Drop in a Kong into Reason and go remote_info.txt through the menu. It shows around 1000 parameters that can be remoted with Reason.
Now drop in a Kong into RRP and count the available Parameters. It should be less, alot less and as i said last time i checked Btwig showed like the first 250 parameters of the remote_info.txt file. But maybe it has changed.
You are correct, it has not changed, and probably won't ever. Reason Devices and Rack Extensions have two parameter lists internally. There are "automatable" parameters, which show up in the sequencer for automation lanes, and in the combinator. These are exposed as VST parameters. Then there are "remotable" parameters, which usually (maybe even required) to also contain the automatable parameters. But often times there are waaaay more items available to be remoted than automated. I have done this in several lectric panda devices, because of the RE limitation of ~250 or so automatable parameters. And sometimes there are things you just don't want available for automation.

I wouldn't expect Remotable items to ever be exposed though VST since they are conceptually two different things.

electrofux
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Post 26 Aug 2022

rcbuse wrote:
25 Aug 2022
electrofux wrote:
25 Aug 2022


Drop in a Kong into Reason and go remote_info.txt through the menu. It shows around 1000 parameters that can be remoted with Reason.
Now drop in a Kong into RRP and count the available Parameters. It should be less, alot less and as i said last time i checked Btwig showed like the first 250 parameters of the remote_info.txt file. But maybe it has changed.
You are correct, it has not changed, and probably won't ever. Reason Devices and Rack Extensions have two parameter lists internally. There are "automatable" parameters, which show up in the sequencer for automation lanes, and in the combinator. These are exposed as VST parameters. Then there are "remotable" parameters, which usually (maybe even required) to also contain the automatable parameters. But often times there are waaaay more items available to be remoted than automated. I have done this in several lectric panda devices, because of the RE limitation of ~250 or so automatable parameters. And sometimes there are things you just don't want available for automation.

I wouldn't expect Remotable items to ever be exposed though VST since they are conceptually two different things.
Yeah i know it won't happen. I have a faint hope that maybe they implement a seperate Remote implementation in the pluging but no most likely won't happen.

And you have no idea how much fun i have with your devices because you went the length to implement all parameters :thumbup:
PSQ (i should make a video of PSQs bitsequence lighting up my Launchpad - limited use but so cool) and Evolution are so nice in this area. As is Step Note from Robotic if i may mention it :--)
I am trying to get Aggregate remoted too as it gave me a next to perfect hook after a few minutes of using it. With nice variations so a song resulted quickly.
Basically it is the no1 reason i stick with Reason.

And it feels kinda weird to me when some Reasonstudios own devices have a kindof lackluster remote implementation (Umpf anyone?) while Re devs put so much effort into it even though it might not be the most profitable time investment (only a guess).
Praises to any dev who does that.

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rcbuse
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Post 26 Aug 2022

electrofux wrote:
26 Aug 2022
And it feels kinda weird to me when some Reasonstudios own devices have a kindof lackluster remote implementation (Umpf anyone?) while Re devs put so much effort into it even though it might not be the most profitable time investment (only a guess).
Praises to any dev who does that.
I think there are a lot of additional pressures when you are talking about the ReasonStudios stuff, getting things tested and shipped before certain dates gets features dropped. Certainly when they approach a 3rd party to do development with a budget and set requirements, once those requirements are met the project is wrapped. Compared to weekend RE developers, who are usually making things for themselves to use, will polish and beta test that stuff forever and ever.

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