Mimic: New Creative Sampler

[danc]

For anyone that is using RRP (not Reason as a DAW) and wondering if they should upgrade from R11 to R12 to get their hands on the new RE's, like Mimic - then consider beforehand your alternatives. I've been checking out TX16WX (https://www.tx16wx.com) It is VST 2 and 3 compatible and has an absolute shed load of features - including beat slicing, modulations, filtering and key-mapping.

It's rock-solid and frequently updated. And MOST IMPORTANTLY... it is FREE, with a PRO version that adds extra bells and whistles.

[chaosroyale]

Don't get me wrong, I like Mimic basically, but the fact, that it doesn't load/import the loop and Rootkey Information from a sample/WAV- or AIF-file is a big failure in my opinion. Also like the fact, that you can't load REX-files, the own Reason format. I'm about 20 years in sampling and my sample library is created with care over the years. A library of perfect looped WAV-files with the right Rootkey and pitch settings. Also I have thousands of REX files. So now I have to set loop points and pitch settings for every sample I load new ? There were a lot of very short waveforms in my well sorted library. Handcrafted with Love . They have to to loop if you want to use them with a sampler and they are really great. NN-XT and other sampler devices play them automatically with the right parameters. You can browse the right sample in very short time. So here IS a big workflow killer in Mimic for me. Maybe others see it in the same way.
I really think, that it couldn't be a big thing to implement this function in a sampler how it must be.

Hey, I feel your frustration, but I think the problem is not really about Mimic, the problem is; "why hasn't the main sampler (NN-XT) been updated for 15 years?" Why doesn't it have time stretch, loop automation, etc. That kind of sampler would be better for what you want to do. The "NN-NeXT" that many of us want, plus "Mimic" for quick fun stuff, that would be a good combination.

EDIT; just saw on another thread that Reason already has a kontakt-style sampler in the SDK called the "gorilla engine"...so why isn't it replacing NN-XT in the Reason Rack!!?

They really need to make a "legacy" folder and deprecate the old instruments like NN-19 and NN-XT into it (or allow users the option to choose what instruments they have in the rack via preferences. It would streamline the menu and save time loading).

[Billy+]

What just happened to that combinator video?

Talk about spoilers

I'm guessing it got removed as it was from a beta tester who really shouldn't have made a YouTube video

[AnotherMathias]

It's a good news, that Mimic will get the pitch detection function like the NN-XT it have. But for me it's more important, that Mimic load the loops out of the WAV-header of existing audiofiles (like NN-XT it does).

Oh yuck, I didn't know that it doesn't!

I too have THOUSANDS of samples that I've carefully added loop points to, with crossfades as needed. Click-free, and often with single-cycle loops that are in tune. Why on earth wouldn't Mimic read that data already existing in the WAV? This makes Mimic even more useless for making playable keyboard sample instruments than I thought.

And equally yuck, why wouldn't they allow it to read the root key data in samples???
I've long applauded Reason for not only reading/embedding root key data, but also for reading/embedding TUNING data into the WAV files. It's enormously useful, in my opinion quite essential! The fact that almost no instrument samples use the tuning data (not Kontakt, for one) is totally bizarre. Who wants to sit and manually tune dozens of samples every time they import them into a sampler.
So yay Reason for being clever and professional and from day one, with NN19 and NNXT!

And now they throw all that in the toilet when dumbing down Mimic so immensely?
They can't make the argument that this is done because Mimic is meant to be simple, fast and fun. What's the fun in tuning and looping samples that ALREADY have that information embedded? Recognizing that data in the file (when present) would clutter the user experience 0%.

I acknowledge that Mimic is intended primarily for goofing around with beats and such, not for something you'd play chromatically on a keyboard. But why not make it a properly versatile tool, instead of a toy with a preconceived way that you should use it, served on a platter? NN19, Malstrom, and Subtractor were incredible in their versatility and economy of design, they weren't just designed for chasing trends in what kind of toys that kids seem to want buy.

It used to be that the beat makers and trendsetters would have to sit down and learn to use general-purpose studio tools, like Akai S1000 and Cubase, and by doing that, some really creative stuff happened. Then came loop construction kit CDs and groove boxes, and that's when things started to fall apart. Luckily Reason came around at the time where professional-style tools still mattered, so even though they came from a 303, 808, and 909 background, in the early days they still made the effort to make clever, versatile, non-trendy devices.

I suspect not many will agree with me about most of this, especially not people under the age of 40. Oh well, I guess this is just another one of those old-man rants about how Reason has totally lost their way...

[QVprod]

Perhaps this may ring true for an Ableton user, but I submit a sampler is unlikely to be the make or break factor here. They probably aren’t looking for a sampler anyway if Simpler is that good. I think we’re mostly past the point of “groundbreaking” features and more now on the line of whether it enhances workflow. The Rack plug-in and the DAW are the same product, so in both cases an interested party would be after the whole experience rather than an individual device being the best thing ever.

Looking at it another way. The DAW is what needed a new sampler if it were one thing over another.

Strong agree on workflow, and yeah probably I should have not used "groundbreaking", maybe "impressive" or something...

I actually like the basic concept of Mimic - it is very simple and old-school Reason, in a good way.

I agree Reason DAW needed a device like Mimic, and if the DAW was still being strongly developed, I'd say it was a nice and necessary feature to have in a version upgrade. But I disagree that the "package" is both the DAW and the RRP. Nobody who uses Cubase is thinking "wow, Reason DAW looks good", and the official marketing and lack of attention to the DAW for the last several years makes it clear that it is not a priority.

I disagree that no one who uses Cubase is looking at Reason DAW. Perhaps not as a replacement, but people using multiple DAWs is actually very common. My expectations are very different though. I don’t expect Reason to ever compete with DAWs like Studio One, Cubase, and Pro Tools. Slightly different market. Cubase hits the composers market, Studio One and Pro Tools hit the more audio focused market. Sure there’s some crossover, but I expect Reason to compete more with Machine, Ableton, and FL Studio, which it does quite well IMO.

Also, not sure where the several years count starts, but Reason 11 isn’t even 2 years old yet… and the plugin was the marquee feature. Of course it’s the primary thing that’s pushed. If by lack of attention to the DAW, you mean the sequencer? That was always a second class citizen. That’s nothing new. One price gives you both, therefore “package”. I use Machine both standalone and as a plugin, as do many others. I don’t see why Reason would be any different.

Most of the action has sort always happened in the rack anyway…CV and audio routing, instrument and fx devices, mix channels, players, insert fx…etc… Mimic, though updates would be great, fits pretty well within that “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts” paradigm.

[QVprod]

It's a good news, that Mimic will get the pitch detection function like the NN-XT it have. But for me it's more important, that Mimic load the loops out of the WAV-header of existing audiofiles (like NN-XT it does).

I acknowledge that Mimic is intended primarily for goofing around with beats and such, not for something you'd play chromatically on a keyboard. But why not make it a properly versatile tool, instead of a toy with a preconceived way that you should use it, served on a platter? NN19, Malstrom, and Subtractor were incredible in their versatility and economy of design, they weren't just designed for chasing trends in what kind of toys that kids seem to want buy.

It used to be that the beat makers and trendsetters would have to sit down and learn to use general-purpose studio tools, like Akai S1000 and Cubase, and by doing that, some really creative stuff happened. Then came loop construction kit CDs and groove boxes, and that's when things started to fall apart. Luckily Reason came around at the time where professional-style tools still mattered, so even though they came from a 303, 808, and 909 background, in the early days they still made the effort to make clever, versatile, non-trendy devices.

I suspect not many will agree with me about most of this, especially not people under the age of 40. Oh well, I guess this is just another one of those old-man rants about how Reason has totally lost their way...

Sorry to speak as someone under 40, but specialized tools are generally better for their intended purpose than ones that do everything. You know…jack of all trades and all, They generally end up lacking in something or are overly complex for the task. If I want a simple bass sound, Subtractor or Monotone are far more immediately useful than Thor or Europa. Samplers are no different, and while an update NNXT would be wonderful, something specifically built for slicing samples just makes sense. Kontakt is one of those do everything tools. It can even chop samples, but Serato Sample is just a better tool for the job.

Doesn’t make it a “toy” and “not professional” simply because it’s not meant for multi-sampled instruments. The old school way of people finding workarounds is because there was no other option. By that logic we should also keep multi samples to 1 second and or whatever minimal time limit was imposed with old samplers as well as keeping samples mono only.

[Creativemind]

Very nice toy, but without EDIT option at least for normalize material...
Why not integrate Recycle as a standard sample edit tool?
Maybe it would be a good point of sale for new clients and pleased the old ones that support´s this great software for years...
All the best.

If you alt-click the start sampling button you get the editor for the sample that currently is loaded.

But won't work with the Reason Rack Plug-In.

[Creativemind]

One example of time saving functions would be a one button solution for a “do over”, something I run into a lot when recording ideas. It would basically stop recording, rewind to the last place you started playback and UNDO the last recording, then play up to the point you started recording and punch in for you, Basically all the things I have to do one at a time when I’m in a creative flurry.

I would friggin love this feature! Have you ever suggested this particular idea to Reason Studios?

Haha, we're still waiting for basic things like joining midi notes or slice by song position pointer. Although they have been known to add bigger things before little.

To Selig though, I bet this would be do-able in Reaper. I will look into it over the next couple of days. It's so customisable and the actions list can do so much, adding shortcuts together and then assigned to any key command you want, etc.

[selig]

To Selig though, I bet this would be do-able in Reaper. I will look into it over the next couple of days. It's so customisable and the actions list can do so much, adding shortcuts together and then assigned to any key command you want, etc.

It will be a tall order to be able to transparently log the initial punch in and play it back. It would require an “always recording” type feature for the transport/timeline, nothing new though….

There a some things that need to be done by the host IMO….

And now, back to discussing missing features in Mimic…

[Sterioevo]

Some voice rotation/polyphony options would be an interesting addition.

[okaino]

Hmmmm everything you would like to do with a one button press is already a reason command ....so to tie that up all in one button is very doable, and i do have a solution for that if you really want to do it.....not sure how to do it on a pc it is possible though,but if you are running a mac theres a way.

Let me know.

I’ve already added a bunch of key commands to speed up my work flow, but there is no third part solution to most workflow issues such as unnecessary additional clicks or odd zoom behavior or missing features…

Im talking about running automated scripts to do the key actions. Is that what your saying your doing?..reason isnt set up well to be scripted to do automation with mouse clicks so much, but for sequencer actions youd have no issue getting it done.

But for example i script buffer up and buffer down and closing the preference window all with one button press.

Im not talking about creating shortcut commands. Im talking about scripting them...to make the computer do the work.

[Billy+]

I’ve already added a bunch of key commands to speed up my work flow, but there is no third part solution to most workflow issues such as unnecessary additional clicks or odd zoom behavior or missing features…

Im talking about running automated scripts to do the key actions. Is that what your saying your doing?..reason isnt set up well to be scripted to do automation with mouse clicks so much, but for sequencer actions youd have no issue getting it done.

But for example i script buffer up and buffer down and closing the preference window all with one button press.

Im not talking about creating shortcut commands. Im talking about scripting them...to make the computer do the work.

Something like autoit in conjunction with touch portal?

Autoit to create the extra functions via scripted keyboard and mouse command and touch portal for the single press shortcut execution...

[AnotherMathias]

Sorry to speak as someone under 40, but specialized tools are generally better for their intended purpose than ones that do everything. You know…jack of all trades and all, They generally end up lacking in something or are overly complex for the task. If I want a simple bass sound, Subtractor or Monotone are far more immediately useful than Thor or Europa. Samplers are no different, and while an update NNXT would be wonderful, something specifically built for slicing samples just makes sense. Kontakt is one of those do everything tools. It can even chop samples, but Serato Sample is just a better tool for the job.

Doesn’t make it a “toy” and “not professional” simply because it’s not meant for multi-sampled instruments. The old school way of people finding workarounds is because there was no other option. By that logic we should also keep multi samples to 1 second and or whatever minimal time limit was imposed with old samplers as well as keeping samples mono only.

Thanks for a thoughtful reply to my dumb rant!

I'm weird enough to probably enjoy a 1-second old time sampler, but in reality that would of course be another example of an arbitrary limitation without any gain in simplicity. Just like not importing loop and root key into Mimic.

I'm fine with specialized tools if they benefit from staying focused on a very specific task.
But when a tool is trying to coax you into a specific kind of final result, and does a "these are not the droids you're looking for" if you try to take it in another direction, that just feels infantilizing and patronizing.
It's like when hardware sequencers went from having patterns of any length or time signature, to suddenly forcing you into a 16 step 4/4.

I admit to having a certain old-guy snob attitude towards loop-based music. If I understand the industry right, most of the loops people use are made by companies churning them out by the hundreds (thousands?), generally to fit whatever trend is going at the moment.
Then bedroom producers download them, click through them until they find some they like, stick a few of them in Serato or Live, and screw around with them for a bit, arrange them in a standardized manner (remember when all dubstep had to have a drop section?), and call it a track.

That's hardly making your own music, is it? If you don't even know what key it's in (unless you look at the readout in Serato, but apparently not in Mimic), could you honestly say that you've made it?
It's a bit like like assembling a bunch of IKEA furniture, arranging them in a room, and calling yourself a carpenter.

Oh damn, I replied to a sensible reply to my dumb rant with another dumb rant. Look what you made me do, Reason!

[PhillipOrdonez]

Sorry to speak as someone under 40, but specialized tools are generally better for their intended purpose than ones that do everything. You know…jack of all trades and all, They generally end up lacking in something or are overly complex for the task. If I want a simple bass sound, Subtractor or Monotone are far more immediately useful than Thor or Europa. Samplers are no different, and while an update NNXT would be wonderful, something specifically built for slicing samples just makes sense. Kontakt is one of those do everything tools. It can even chop samples, but Serato Sample is just a better tool for the job.

Doesn’t make it a “toy” and “not professional” simply because it’s not meant for multi-sampled instruments. The old school way of people finding workarounds is because there was no other option. By that logic we should also keep multi samples to 1 second and or whatever minimal time limit was imposed with old samplers as well as keeping samples mono only.

Thanks for a thoughtful reply to my dumb rant!

I'm weird enough to probably enjoy a 1-second old time sampler, but in reality that would of course be another example of an arbitrary limitation without any gain in simplicity. Just like not importing loop and root key into Mimic.

I'm fine with specialized tools if they benefit from staying focused on a very specific task.
But when a tool is trying to coax you into a specific kind of final result, and does a "these are not the droids you're looking for" if you try to take it in another direction, that just feels infantilizing and patronizing.
It's like when hardware sequencers went from having patterns of any length or time signature, to suddenly forcing you into a 16 step 4/4.

I admit to having a certain old-guy snob attitude towards loop-based music. If I understand the industry right, most of the loops people use are made by companies churning them out by the hundreds (thousands?), generally to fit whatever trend is going at the moment.
Then bedroom producers download them, click through them until they find some they like, stick a few of them in Serato or Live, and screw around with them for a bit, arrange them in a standardized manner (remember when all dubstep had to have a drop section?), and call it a track.

That's hardly making your own music, is it? If you don't even know what key it's in (unless you look at the readout in Serato, but apparently not in Mimic), could you honestly say that you've made it?
It's a bit like like assembling a bunch of IKEA furniture, arranging them in a room, and calling yourself a carpenter.

Oh damn, I replied to a sensible reply to my dumb rant with another dumb rant. Look what you made me do, Reason!

You look down upon loop based music? If you mean only those who use loops and mix and match until they find something they like and call it their production, I agree. Though I wonder how many of those actually exist in any significant form beyond amateurs whose music is as useful and valuable as plastic in the ocean.

If you mean electronic music...

[ravasb]

Even if someone is just throwing a couple of loops together, they are having fun and being creative. They might even be inspired to make more original works. We should be encouraging people to have fun making sounds.

[QVprod]

Sorry to speak as someone under 40, but specialized tools are generally better for their intended purpose than ones that do everything. You know…jack of all trades and all, They generally end up lacking in something or are overly complex for the task. If I want a simple bass sound, Subtractor or Monotone are far more immediately useful than Thor or Europa. Samplers are no different, and while an update NNXT would be wonderful, something specifically built for slicing samples just makes sense. Kontakt is one of those do everything tools. It can even chop samples, but Serato Sample is just a better tool for the job.

Doesn’t make it a “toy” and “not professional” simply because it’s not meant for multi-sampled instruments. The old school way of people finding workarounds is because there was no other option. By that logic we should also keep multi samples to 1 second and or whatever minimal time limit was imposed with old samplers as well as keeping samples mono only.

Thanks for a thoughtful reply to my dumb rant!

I'm weird enough to probably enjoy a 1-second old time sampler, but in reality that would of course be another example of an arbitrary limitation without any gain in simplicity. Just like not importing loop and root key into Mimic.

I'm fine with specialized tools if they benefit from staying focused on a very specific task.
But when a tool is trying to coax you into a specific kind of final result, and does a "these are not the droids you're looking for" if you try to take it in another direction, that just feels infantilizing and patronizing.
It's like when hardware sequencers went from having patterns of any length or time signature, to suddenly forcing you into a 16 step 4/4.

I admit to having a certain old-guy snob attitude towards loop-based music. If I understand the industry right, most of the loops people use are made by companies churning them out by the hundreds (thousands?), generally to fit whatever trend is going at the moment.
Then bedroom producers download them, click through them until they find some they like, stick a few of them in Serato or Live, and screw around with them for a bit, arrange them in a standardized manner (remember when all dubstep had to have a drop section?), and call it a track.

That's hardly making your own music, is it? If you don't even know what key it's in (unless you look at the readout in Serato, but apparently not in Mimic), could you honestly say that you've made it?
It's a bit like like assembling a bunch of IKEA furniture, arranging them in a room, and calling yourself a carpenter.

Oh damn, I replied to a sensible reply to my dumb rant with another dumb rant. Look what you made me do, Reason!

I think you're oversimplifying. The sampling you can do in Mimic is beyond just using loop packs. There's a fair amount of complex things you can do with it. I'd recommend checking out the livestream RS did. Even with kits, there's an art to chopping somethings so it doesn't sound like the next guy who bought the same loop pack. A hybrid of loops and played sounds is also common. That aside, even though I create everything from scratch myself, I've come to know there is still skill in putting together loops and making it sound good. I've taught GarageBand classes... Some people really have no ear for what sounds good.

[AnotherMathias]

You look down upon loop based music? If you mean only those who use loops and mix and match until they find something they like and call it their production, I agree. Though I wonder how many of those actually exist in any significant form beyond amateurs whose music is as useful and valuable as plastic in the ocean.

If you mean electronic music...

Yes, there's a difference between using loops as a component of your music, and BASING your tracks on other people's loops.

I have no problem with people "making" music however they want. It only becomes an issue when my favorite beloved music software shifts focus towards that kind of having fun, and away from my kind of having fun!

[AnotherMathias]

Even if someone is just throwing a couple of loops together, they are having fun and being creative. They might even be inspired to make more original works. We should be encouraging people to have fun making sounds.

I'm sure a lot of people thinks that Paint By Numbers is a lot of fun as well.
But what if you're a "traditional" painter, and one day all the art supply shops stop selling what you need, and instead just sell Paint By Numbers? Pretty irritating, right?

[avasopht]

I'm sure a lot of people thinks that Paint By Numbers is a lot of fun as well.
But what if you're a "traditional" painter, and one day all the art supply shops stop selling what you need, and instead just sell Paint By Numbers? Pretty irritating, right?

Except that's not what's happened at all.

First of all, loop libraries (or loops in general) aren't for painting by numbers. They're to be used however a person sees fit. If you can only think of using them as loops in a painting-by-numbers manner, that's your own limitation in thought, not anyone else's. Other people are free to use them in different, unique and more creative ways.

Secondly, traditional instruments are well established and well supported across the board.

You've got:
1. EWQL (1 TB of state of the art instruments for $20/mo)
2. SampleTank
3. Komplete Ultimate
4. Steinberg Collection
5. Sonic Reality Gold Bundle Refill and the Miroslav Orchestra Refill
6. A few orchestral and instrument Rack Extensions from the same people behind the stock Kontakt libraries
7. Korg Triton/Triton Extreme
8. Roland Zenology (all the XV-5080 expansions, plus weekly patch releases)
9. Workstation keyboards
10. Real acoustic instruments

Traditional instruments for traditional musicians have been exhausted, almost to death.

Maybe someone someday will create a virtual instrument designer where you can invent your own virtual acoustic instruments that sound like nothing else out there, but still sounds "real".

What is it exactly that you think you need that is being neglected in favour of loop libraries?

[AnotherMathias]

What is it exactly that you think you need that is being neglected in favour of loop libraries?

A modern instrument sampler.

By "modern" I don't mean created for "modern" ways of using samples, I mean up-to-date ways of handling files, UIs, etc.
And I don't mean big monsters like Kontakt, Falcon, and Halion, where people almost exclusively use either pro sample libraries, or use them for synthesis, not samples.

I've been looking for about a year now, and am pretty certain that what I want doesn't exist. There are a few VST samplers, Nuance, Bliss, and TAL Sampler (the best one of the three, imo), but all of them are cumbersome and awkward to work with. NN19 and NN-XT are STILL the best ones out there, I think, and that's pretty sad, considering how old they are.

Many DAWs has a sampler engine built in, like Ableton Simpler and Sampler, Studio One's Sample One and Presence XT, Logic's Sampler, and the one in Bitwig, but as one who may need to work in multiple DAWs, I need something that's not tied to one system.

So when the word broke that Reason 12 will have a NEW SAMPLER, I was filled with misguided hope. And that's why I'm now a grump!

[bitley]

I don't get it. NNXT is not an old sampler; it's an unexplored sampler as far I've seen many use it. Ensoniq Mirage? Yeah that's a pretty old sampler. Mimic, a new sampler? Absolutely. Replacing anything? No, but I've not used the NN19 much since we did some timestretch funkiness with it (on a collab project with a guy producing as Tintin) so Mimic's more advanced stretching etc looks promising and will surely be giving Reason a new island to explore. Once I •really• learned my ways around the NNXT I realized how extremely powerful it is. It still surprises me. Would never call it dated! You know what's dated? Reading complaints about it!!! When it got sampling that was a huge addition / update too btw. The sample editor is awesome. But I look forward to exploring Mimic and the new R12! (Been happily sampling ever since the 80's). Bonus point: No sampler will ever get dated in my world, goes against the nature of these instruments. Example? Ok. If I sample the Take 5 into my 1988 Akai S1000KB it can sound like the Take 5, cool huh?

[avasopht]

A modern instrument sampler.

By "modern" I don't mean created for "modern" ways of using samples, I mean up-to-date ways of handling files, UIs, etc.
And I don't mean big monsters like Kontakt, Falcon, and Halion, where people almost exclusively use either pro sample libraries, or use them for synthesis, not samples.

I've been looking for about a year now, and am pretty certain that what I want doesn't exist. There are a few VST samplers, Nuance, Bliss, and TAL Sampler (the best one of the three, imo), but all of them are cumbersome and awkward to work with. NN19 and NN-XT are STILL the best ones out there, I think, and that's pretty sad, considering how old they are.

Many DAWs has a sampler engine built in, like Ableton Simpler and Sampler, Studio One's Sample One and Presence XT, Logic's Sampler, and the one in Bitwig, but as one who may need to work in multiple DAWs, I need something that's not tied to one system.

So when the word broke that Reason 12 will have a NEW SAMPLER, I was filled with misguided hope. And that's why I'm now a grump!

Have you tried Halion or Sampletank?

[joeyluck]

I agree about NN-XT. And I hope it gets some attention in the future!

All NN-XT really needs IMO is legato sample handling and these stretch modes (at least Melody stretch). And Mimic doesn't need to be the only sampler with different stretch modes in order to distinguish itself... It just needs to be a simple sampler that gets inspiring results quickly in order to separate itself.

In other words, keep making NN-XT more advanced and keep improving the workflow for Mimic to improve upon it being simple and quick.

[bitley]

Legato, since day one, please explain what you need.

[QVprod]

Legato, since day one, please explain what you need.

There’s no way of handling legato samples. It has a legato function that works similar to a synth, but not for instruments like real strings where separate legato samples are recorded. There’s no denying that NNXT is still capable, but it does need updates. There have been many advancements with samplers since it was built. Time stretching…etc…