MusicTech: Niklas Agevik talks Reason

[antic604]

I'll try to give more perspective on my "journey" through Verdane buying Reason. And why my stance shifted from positive to neutral/negative, compounded by the confusing messaging from the HQ, not helped by spotty track record.

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Initially, I thought Verdane bought Reason because they saw the untapped potential of Rack Extensions:
* REs are stable (sandboxed) and integrated with host way better than any plugin
* REs are apparently easy to code, with a competent SDK/API tools available (at the time, at least)
* REs are OS & hardware agnostic - because it's LLVM byte code, it's the Reason that has to be adjusted to OS & hardware shifting under it & RE devs don't have to do anything (or very little - see AS compatibility, high-res GUI)
* REs are centrally hosted & sold, so 3rd party devs don't have to worry about servers, virus protection, client user account & password, building a store with sales, rent-to-own & trials, marketing campaigns, etc.
* with release of Reason 10, it hinted at easy "convertibility" of REs into VST - the test case was Europa VST; it looked, like RS might be able to offer 3rd party devs (semi-)automatic conversion of REs into VSTs!
* at the same time, RS' CTO gave a talk showcasing how REs can be hosted in the web and on arbitrary hardware, opening other untapped markets

That suggested to me an opportunity for Verdane to build a viable alternative to VST ecosystem, with centralized market. 3rd party devs would build their instruments & FX in RE format, RS would host & sell them for use in Reason, in web, in hardware; and if the 3rd party devs wanted, they'd get free conversion to VST to tap that market, too.

RS would become an Apple of alternative, thriving plugin (semi-)walled garden!!!

Looks like I was way off base.

Or maybe not.

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Fast forward 3-4 years and the situation is clearly different: conversion of REs into VSTs was replaced by RRP, which since then became the key focus of development and of marketing, to the point that 1st thing you see on RS website is ...Ableton Live. Most features introduced in v12 - I think except for crossfades and VST3? -and all devices released in that time benefit RRP as well. There seems to be been no development of RE SDK/API (I think documentation is still dated to 2020 or 2021), most of talented RE devs disappeared because RS made them hostage to stale DAW and SDK/API toolkit, whereas the promise of using REs via RRP in other DAWs also doesn't really served the 3rd party devs. I mean who's going to buy a $500 Reason they don't need, to then have to also buy Expanse, or Antidote, or MIDI Computer to use in their other DAW? Where's free, empty RRP added to every RE purchase???

As someone above said, they want to compete now for our cognitively and creatively "passive" time, rather than the "active" one. Which might be a great business opportunity, but - to me, at least - suggest the move towards Reason becoming a toy, and not a tool. That's why I can't shake the vision I've mentioned on 1st page:

Because - for some reason - all I can think of is those dance machines in arcades, where music plays, stuff flashes on screen and you have to move your arms & legs in coordination to the rhythm to get points. Reading that interview I imagine an inversion of that, i.e. a "fun" system where goofing around - in physical space, or maybe in AR/VR - will create music

Don't get me wrong - that might be an awesome & successful product, but it's not what I want & need.

Perhaps @Selig is right and I'm not the target demographic for Reason anymore...

Frankly, at this point I just want to know where they're going one way or the other, so that I can decide between getting rid of Reason or jumping on R+. Right now - and for the past couple of years - I'm in this limbo, oscillating between frustration and excitement. I don't have that with Bitwig or Studio One, who - despite not publishing any roadmaps - chart a clear way forward. And it's disappointing, because I can't say about any of those DAWs the things I can say about Reason.

[jklok]

And stop naming your modules after regions and such, because what would it look like if someone made a "USA" synthesizer along the lines of the latest Spokane designs. This is just poor creative direction IMHO. Over and out.

To enlighten you on this: Europa is in line with the other gods of mythology theme for Reason synths: Thor, Neptune and Europa (the Greek goddess after which the continent is named). So a "USA" synthesizer seems highly unlikely to me. And if the continent theme were applicable it would be "Amerika" then, imho.

Ah okay, sorry my bad then. Well already kind of fed up with Sonoma, Ventura and all that so could probably live without an 'Amerika' synth. All the best

[danc]

Interesting debate. I jumped away from Reason DAW a few years ago and chose Studio One instead. I do not regret that decision. Reason for me is now RRP. I won't go into too much detail as to why I did this, as it's been discussed on this forum thousands of times. In short... Reason DAW lacks many features I want/need. Another problem is that although the rack is great for creating complex routing ideas, for simple inserts in serial (normal everyday use) it feels oversized and unwieldy.

Regarding Niklas talk to MusicTech... it just feels like confused hot air. And it became even more confused by explanations from other RS staff. Instead of hot air... how about RS just impress us with moving their product forward. I feel (like many people do) that Reason Studios move like a super slow iceberg and the gap between RS and the rest of the music production world gets increasingly wider. Maybe that is ok for their targeted "what shall I do tonight Netflix generation audience" ... whatever that means, but for me it just makes me feel increasingly concerned that RS as a whole has become a dinosaur from a previous century. It certainly doesn't look like a serious contender in a competitive music-making/sound-design world. I used to be a Reason evangelist - these days I keep quiet, enjoy RRP for what little it gives me, and get on with making music in Studio One where it is feature rich and fun enough to get the job done. I don't need my DAW to feel like a fun toy to get the job done.

Anyway... as I use RRP I have no need/wish to pay for new versions of Reason unless there is significant new features/improvements in RRP. The biggest new feature for me would be that RRP can host VSTs alongside RE's... just like you can do in the rack within Reason DAW. I could then create some really interesting ideas, which the Reason rack is renowned for.

[Loque]

"" I jumped away from Reason DAW a few years ago and chose Studio One instead. I do not regret that decision. Reason for me is now RRP. I won't go into too much detail as to why I did this, as it's been discussed on this forum thousands of times.""

PLEASE --- >>> U P D A T E---T H E---W O R K F L O W---A N D---S E Q U E N C E R <<<--- PLEASE

Looks like you made your way. Why you still care about DAW improvements?

[selig]

Perhaps @Selig is right and I'm not the target demographic for Reason anymore...

From all I’ve ever heard, if you are a working studio professional on any level then Reason was never directly targeting you. They were targeting the hobbyist musician who wanted better tools that were more like what the professionals had but at a lower price point, at least as I understood it at the time. I don’t believe much has changed in that regard, please correct me if I’m wrong on that.

[selig]

And stop naming your modules after regions and such, because what would it look like if someone made a "USA" synthesizer along the lines of the latest Spokane designs. This is just poor creative direction IMHO. Over and out.

Are you thinking of Korg Gadget here?!?

[antic604]

Perhaps @Selig is right and I'm not the target demographic for Reason anymore...

From all I’ve ever heard, if you are a working studio professional on any level then Reason was never directly targeting you. They were targeting the hobbyist musician who wanted better tools that were more like what the professionals had but at a lower price point, at least as I understood it at the time. I don’t believe much has changed in that regard, please correct me if I’m wrong on that.

Yes, I believe you're right. All of their marketing videos are clearly targeting hobbyist producers or artists/bands. And I'm one.

But for me, it's not as much about features as it is about understanding where RS are going. Reason's sequencer is in lot of aspects way more advanced than Bitwig's or Live's (blocks mode, pattern lanes, automation clips, in-line pitch editing, multiple MIDI lanes per track, grooves, ability to selectively mute MIDI & automation). I don't believe I ever actually called it "outdated", because it's clearly not. But I have no idea if they ever add anything meaningful to it again? Not, if v12 track record and messaging coming from HQ are anything to go by.

[EnochLight]

So I guess the idea is that he's saying that if you can afford Netflix and Steam accounts, you should easily be able to afford a Reason+ subscription?

I read the entire thread

OK, but I thought things were clarified for you here:

viewtopic.php?p=650749#p650749

Or when you said "he's saying", you didn't mean Niklas (the CEO) in his interview? Sorry - it's hard to follow who people are talking about when they don't quote.

other than the thankless job bit, this literally describes every member of any online forum of any size.

I mean, you're not wrong either!

good lord dude, you’re still trying to tell other people what they actually meant?

Uh, no - that's not what's happening at all.

[EnochLight]

I'll try to give more perspective on my "journey" through Verdane buying Reason. And why my stance shifted from positive to neutral/negative, compounded by the confusing messaging from the HQ, not helped by spotty track record.

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Initially, I thought Verdane bought Reason because they saw the untapped potential of Rack Extensions:

Personally, I feel your perspective was misguided from the very start, hence your compounding negativity. When Verdane became majority shareholder of Propellerhead, I never thought for a second that the "future" was in Rack Extensions. Not even sure why you or anyone would have thought that by this time, because RE's were stuck in a funk with dev support having shifted to small/indie devs only by this time. Meanwhile, Reason 9.5 arrives, and Reason got actual VST support - something the vast majority had been asking for since before RE's appeared. To me, the writing was on the wall: sure, Rack Extensions are great, but Reason could never truly be a fleshed out DAW if we couldn't use VST inside of it. Once VST support appeared, Rack Extension devs - at least the top tier ones - barely gave RE's another thought. U-he? Gone (long before Reason 9.5 actually). Korg? Gone. Reveal Sound? Gone (not that they put much effort into ReSpire anyway LOL)! iZotope? Gone. Native Instruments never made any attempt at RE's, neither did Waves, etc.

So I am literally at a loss of logic as to how you thought Verdane would have threw all their chips behind a limited native plugin format that was only specific to Reason?

Personally, I feel Verdane took the gamble because they saw Reason making an attempt to be a more wide-spread DAW with VST-support, and expansion was always intended with Reason Rack Plugin so it could be used in all DAW, with the subscription OPTION always planned.

[antic604]

So I am literally at a loss of logic as to how you thought Verdane would have threw all their chips behind a limited native plugin format that was only specific to Reason?

My "plan" never excluded Reason supporting VSTs natively!

The idea was that RS - with "help" of Verdane's money - could've turned REs into thriving plugin alternative, that would attract small & medium developers who don't have or don't want to waste the resources on all the mundane maintenance stuff and could have the VST builds for them if they wanted; in exchange for a fee paid to RS. That's both a potential source of income for RS and a way to get more stuff for Reason users. On top of that, REs - as shown by the CTO - could easily be ported to web and hardware, which can't be said of VSTs where there's multitude of development frameworks and the specs are so loose, that DAWs have to build elaborate code base to handle the same feature in different plugins. That's an additional, potential revenue stream.

I might be crazy, but it made sense to me

I mean what could be the alternative? Did they really thought they can compete with Kontakt, Halion and Falcon on one end and VCV Rack, Softube Modular or Reaktor on the other? If that was/is the plan, then abandoning the DAW portion would make sense, because it's a drag on their resources and development timelines.

I guess we'll never know what was the plan

All I know is that they're failing on implementing either...

[EnochLight]

All I know is that they're failing on implementing either...

You say that (and believe me, since before your return from being banned, you're not the first ) but... they aren't failing. The company hasn't folded, they keep releasing Reason updates and new Rack Extensions, and their user-base is (allegedly) the biggest it's ever been since releasing RRP. Also, slightly unrelated but worth saying - if the current CEO's guidance wasn't working, Verdane would have replaced him a long time ago. Equity investment groups don't mess around.

[antic604]

All I know is that they're failing on implementing either...

You say that (and believe me, since before your return from being banned, you're not the first ) but... they aren't failing. The company hasn't folded, they keep releasing Reason updates and new Rack Extensions, and their user-base is (allegedly) the biggest it's ever been since releasing RRP. Also, slightly unrelated but worth saying - if the current CEO's guidance wasn't working, Verdane would have replaced him a long time ago. Equity investment groups don't mess around.

That's a fair point.

But at the same time that's how I picture the old Propellerheads crew in the RS office:




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And maybe I am crazy. Three months ago I changed job from one where I was paid ~10% more and had ~50% less work, but I felt miserable

[selig]

…But for me, it's not as much about features as it is about understanding where RS are going.

I've seen one or two indication of where RS was going in the 20 years I've been a customer. Both were recently. Meaning, anyone who's been around for a while knows not to expect any ideas where Reason is going.
And judging by how the road maps were seen as "promises" by so many folks, I don't think it's likely we'll see a detailed road map any time soon.

And even then, things change so how much confidence can you have in a 'road map' in the first place?

Bottom line, IMO if you've (not specifically you) stuck around this long you know the best you're gonna get is maybe an occasional rough road map, if that.
Either you're cool with being surprised by the next version of Reason, or you're not.

[antic604]

And even then, things change so how much confidence can you have in a 'road map' in the first place?

Bottom line, IMO if you've (not specifically you) stuck around this long you know the best you're gonna get is maybe an occasional rough road map, if that.

Either you're cool with being surprised by the next version of Reason, or you're not.

I don't need roadmap.

As I said, with Bitwig or S1 I know where they're going and who they're targeting, because it's clear from what they've delivered so far.

With Reason, I know that I don't know. Especially when it comes to Reason DAW. Because I'm such a peculiar person, for whom RRP doesn't "exist". If there will be no Reason DAW, I'll simply sell my license even if $2k+ spent on 1st and 3rd party REs goes down the drain.

[luckygreen]

What's a bit puzzling to me: Why not make a basic version of RRP free?

RS still developes fine Rack Extensions like BV-X, Chord Sequencer, Objekt, etc. Let's say you have no Reason license and you are not interested in any subscription but you would like to buy and use Objekt. Would you buy Reason for 500 USD and then Objekt for another 100 USD just to use Objekt in your DAW of choice?

But if you get a basic RRP for free to use your RE in .. you might want to upgrade to full Reason in the future. If I was RS I would do just that sooner than later.

[selig]

And even then, things change so how much confidence can you have in a 'road map' in the first place?

Bottom line, IMO if you've (not specifically you) stuck around this long you know the best you're gonna get is maybe an occasional rough road map, if that.

Either you're cool with being surprised by the next version of Reason, or you're not.

I don't need roadmap.

As I said, with Bitwig or S1 I know where they're going and who they're targeting, because it's clear from what they've delivered so far.

With Reason, I know that I don't know. Especially when it comes to Reason DAW. Because I'm such a peculiar person, for whom RRP doesn't "exist". If there will be no Reason DAW, I'll simply sell my license even if $2k+ spent on 1st and 3rd party REs goes down the drain.

I guess you didn't agree with my comment that if you've been around for very long, you know where Reason is going. They haven't really changed course from day one of Reason AFAICT. If and when they fulfill a feature request, it won't be in the expected way. It's the "Reason Way", which can often mean 80% of the way to where many would have expected…

[EnochLight]

What's a bit puzzling to me: Why not make a basic version of RRP free?

RS still developes fine Rack Extensions like BV-X, Chord Sequencer, Objekt, etc. Let's say you have no Reason license and you are not interested in any subscription but you would like to buy and use Objekt. Would you buy Reason for 500 USD and then Objekt for another 100 USD just to use Objekt in your DAW of choice?

But if you get a basic RRP for free to use your RE in .. you might want to upgrade to full Reason in the future. If I was RS I would do just that sooner than later.

Yeah, I agree this would be a smart product. Just a blank "rack", with the sequencer + RRP blank rack - that's 100% free. Force users to buy Rack Extensions to fill the free rack. It channels money directly into the coffers of Reason Studios and whatever devs score the sales, and gives users a "gateway" to Reason. Offer an upgrade path, and - bam!

[antic604]

What's a bit puzzling to me: Why not make a basic version of RRP free?

For sure.

...I mean who's going to buy a $500 Reason they don't need, to then have to also buy Expanse, or Antidote, or MIDI Computer to use in their other DAW? Where's free, empty RRP added to every RE purchase???

[danc]

What's a bit puzzling to me: Why not make a basic version of RRP free?

RS still developes fine Rack Extensions like BV-X, Chord Sequencer, Objekt, etc. Let's say you have no Reason license and you are not interested in any subscription but you would like to buy and use Objekt. Would you buy Reason for 500 USD and then Objekt for another 100 USD just to use Objekt in your DAW of choice?

But if you get a basic RRP for free to use your RE in .. you might want to upgrade to full Reason in the future. If I was RS I would do just that sooner than later.

I totally agree. RRP as it is currently sold works for people that already own Reason DAW, but want to use REs in a different DAW. For anyone else wanting REs in a DAW that isn't Reason, this comes at an eye watering cost to get your hands on RRP. And the mad idea that you have to install the entire Reason DAW just to have the RRP plugin.

RRP needs to be sold as a stand-alone plugin, without the entire Reason eco-system. Either for free, or at a temptingly low cost. Claw your money back RS from the sale of REs.

[antic604]

...For anyone else wanting REs in a DAW that isn't Reason, this comes at an eye watering cost to get your hands on RRP...

The idea is for everyone else to jump on R+

I suspect this is where the "the most Reason users ever" is coming from.
But they're not really using Reason, at least not how I define "Reason user".

[Andy]

I couldn't tell the last time where I saw Reason users say "I am switching to Netflix/Steam because Reason is not doing it for me anymore". This idea that you are competing with Netflix/Steam is strange, just as strange as the "idea starter" statements made a few months ago. Netflix/Steam serves completely different purposes and no amount of DAW *fun* will take users away from those services. Users turn to competing DAWs if they provide tools they need. Which in return makes making music on those platforms also fun where they achieve their music making dreams after coming home.

What is really behind the CEO statement is easy access to a lot of content, content which in return will make a lot of money. It's similar to how Netflix/Steam is all about easy access to a lot of content to keep you engage/subscribed. I have no issues with Reason Studios making loads of money by the way. Simply put Netflix/Steam is about entertainment, Reason is about creativity, other DAWs are about creativity. To say you are not competing with other DAWs(creativity tools) is bizarre. Imagine the Netflix CEO saying they are not competing with Amazon Prime but with Avid or Ableton.

There are different types of fun. Entertainment fun, creativity fun etc. Where does Reason belong?

[selig]

...For anyone else wanting REs in a DAW that isn't Reason, this comes at an eye watering cost to get your hands on RRP...

The idea is for everyone else to jump on R+

I suspect this is where the "the most Reason users ever" is coming from.
But they're not really using Reason, at least not how I define "Reason user".

Now that's coming off as a bit of an elitist, kinda a "no true Scotsman" type argument.
If you don't pay full price for Reason, you're not a "TRUE" Reason user.

[avasopht]

I couldn't tell the last time where I saw Reason users say "I am switching to Netflix/Steam because Reason is not doing it for me anymore". This idea that you are competing with Netflix/Steam is strange, just as strange as the "idea starter" statements made a few months ago. Netflix/Steam serves completely different purposes and no amount of DAW *fun* will take users away from those services. Users turn to competing DAWs if they provide tools they need. Which in return makes making music on those platforms also fun where they achieve their music making dreams after coming home.

What is really behind the CEO statement is easy access to a lot of content, content which in return will make a lot of money. It's similar to how Netflix/Steam is all about easy access to a lot of content to keep you engage/subscribed. I have no issues with Reason Studios making loads of money by the way. Simply put Netflix/Steam is about entertainment, Reason is about creativity, other DAWs are about creativity. To say you are not competing with other DAWs(creativity tools) is bizarre. Imagine the Netflix CEO saying they are not competing with Amazon Prime but with Avid or Ableton.

There are different types of fun. Entertainment fun, creativity fun etc. Where does Reason belong?

Nintendo says, "We are toy-makers", and does not consider themselves to be in competition with Sony and Microsoft. This is known as a differentiation strategy.

Rolex doesn't compete with Sekonda. It competes with other luxury items and indicators of wealth.

Reason doesn't have to compete with DAWs. It can be used alongside or inside the DAW. In a nutshell, it means that if you have a DAW you can still use Reason.

Being in competition suggests you have to pick between Protools/Studio One/FLStudio/etc. and Reason.

I really wouldn't read too much into their product positioning statements. It's just a guiding principle that, as you can see with Nintendo and Rolex, doesn't preclude them from producing some of the best (no pun intended) games and watches ( ).

[antic604]

The idea is for everyone else to jump on R+

I suspect this is where the "the most Reason users ever" is coming from.
But they're not really using Reason, at least not how I define "Reason user".

Now that's coming off as a bit of an elitist, kinda a "no true Scotsman" type argument.
If you don't pay full price for Reason, you're not a "TRUE" Reason user.

That's not what I'm saying at all

"Reason user" is - IMO, of course! - someone who's using Reason the DAW. I don't care if they stole it, bought it or subscribe to it. But I bet my left testicle that vast majority of R+ subscribers use RRP exclusively or most of the time.

[antic604]

Nintendo says, "We are toy-makers", and does not consider themselves to be in competition with Sony and Microsoft. This is known as a differentiation strategy.

Rolex doesn't compete with Sekonda. It competes with other luxury items and indicators of wealth.

I'm not aware of anyone who went with Nintendo Switch when shopping for Lego set. Or a Rolex instead of art piece or antique furniture.

Sure, they might be a toy / luxury item respectively, but first & foremost they're a game console / watch.