MusicTech: Niklas Agevik talks Reason

[antic604]

Problem with statements like this one is that you (and other people making such statements) seem to think that every other Reason user has the same interests as you have. I, for one, couldn't care less about the things that Bitwig can do, or Ableton for that matter. I make rock music, I don't need a clip launcher

Those are just example features I use, so I care about them. I can't make examples for you.

Also, notice I've not mentioned clip launcher

From a marketing point-of-view, it is always more logical to assume people by your product for what it CAN do, not for the things is can't. So, building on the foundation of what it does best seems, at least to me, a pretty fundamental choice. Playing catch-up with other products will always be what it is: playing catch-up.

Why you assume Reason's "foundation of what it does best" is rock music, like you seem to be implying here?

From where I'm standing it was clearly designed for electronic music with the type of instruments & FX it has, modular structure, CV and the fact that it couldn't record audio until v6 at all. Should I then suggest they should ignore your feature requests & focus on mine?

Again, I gave examples of what I know & use. You do yours, if you wish.

[antic604]

And so far, at least for you because you’re here, it’s winning, no?

No, not really. I'd say 80% of my music making time is spent in Bitwig.
It just helps me achieve what I want faster in the limited time that I have

[EnochLight]

So… “carving out time” isn’t competing with the things you literally just listed?! Lmao… ok.

No. I don't partition my time to Work, Family, Netflix, Reason, Bitwig, Studio One.

LMAO... later...

But it inevitably competes for my music making time...

... that you carve out of your day. You can say that it doesn't compete with time you (inadvertently) alot for Work, Family, Netflix, but you that's not exactly true, Artur - even though you don't realize it. We all carve out time - it's how time works, man. Saying you don't is not exactly living in the universe of reality that most of us inhabit. And sure - some of that time is time you'd give to other DAW.

As well as the other things above.

That said, looks like Mattias clarified things for you?

[selig]

And so far, at least for you because you’re here, it’s winning, no?

No, not really. I'd say 80% of my music making time is spent in Bitwig.
It just helps me achieve what I want faster in the limited time that I have

Fair point, I guess that just means you’re not the target market for Reason then!
I feel the same way about mixing in LUNA vs Reason, so I can relate.

[avasopht]

I just use the best tool for the job.

Reason has its uses. It doesn't matter if it's 20% or 5% of my time. It does what it does.

All I know is that there's someone making the best-sounding hits on all the stuff people complain about.

[antic604]

No. I don't partition my time to Work, Family, Netflix, Reason, Bitwig, Studio One.

LMAO... later...

But it inevitably competes for my music making time...

... that you carve out of your day. You can say that it doesn't compete with time you (inadvertently) alot for Work, Family, Netflix, but you that's not exactly true, Artur - even though you don't realize it. We all carve out time - it's how time works, man. Saying you don't is not exactly living in the universe of reality that most of us inhabit. And sure - some of that time is time you'd give to other DAW.

As well as the other things above.

That said, looks like Mattias clarified things for you?

I'm not sure if it's my English, or what?

Yes - for me Reason competes with Bitwig, not with Netflix. I don't think it ever happened that I was using Bitwig for 2h and I planned to watch Peeky Blinders afterwards, but I decided against it and launched Reason instead. If I wanted Reason, I'd simply cut the Bitwig session to 1h however or much time I want to use Reason.

The choice is always Netflix vs. music-making time, then between DAWs within that music-making time.

And yes, Mattias made it clearer:
- Niklas says Reason shouldn't compete with other DAWs on features, instead it should compete for our time with Netflix
- for me, and I'm beating the dead horse at this point, Reason competes for my music-making time with other DAWs; hence why I disagree with Niklas

[guitfnky]

No, not really. I'd say 80% of my music making time is spent in Bitwig.
It just helps me achieve what I want faster in the limited time that I have

Fair point, I guess that just means you’re not the target market for Reason then!
I feel the same way about mixing in LUNA vs Reason, so I can relate.

sort of begs the question, what *is* the target market for Reason? you’d asked whether Reason is his main choice of DAW—but it’s also a plugin. it used to be my main DAW, but now it’s just a plugin…until they build it into a more competent DAW in the modern space.

[luckygreen]

I guess I was lucky not to experience R12 in its initial release. It has been running totally crash free since I bought a used M1 this spring and installed 12.5.1 with Ventura and the performance and sound is the best ever. With the amount of power available and access to the VST3, I would say you can mix directly out of the box now and be very happy with the result compared to any other DAW on the market. Calling Reason a toy is like calling a real recording studio a playground, and I suppose that i was thinking. must always be the case whether you make a lot of money from your tracks or not.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Then again ..

...

Thanks for your input. I'm pretty sure I can go 5 years back on this forum, even more and find a post from you saying something like this. Saying we will do things you ask. And then in the mean time we get some cool devices, but not really crucial as the workflow improvements people ask for. So my question is just why? And how many more years will it take and also, why is it so hard to do those things if we see stuff like that being implemented in all other DAW's?

Thanks.
M

So if RS is indeed not going for the supposedly low hanging fruits and easy to implement workflow improvements, why is that? Is it harder to implement as we think, for instance folder tracks? Maybe it doen't fit their design philosophy? Because flashy new devices sell better than folder tracks?

[crimsonwarlock]

I can't make examples for you.

Which was precisely my point.

Also, notice I've not mentioned clip launcher

That's correct, I did

Why you assume Reason's "foundation of what it does best" is rock music, like you seem to be implying here?

Where do I 'imply' that? I just said that >> I << make rock music with it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I didn't 'imply' anything else. Nevertheless, as you brought it up here, the SSL mixing consoles are rather famous for all the gold and platinum rock records that were mixed on those

From where I'm standing it was clearly designed for electronic music with the type of instruments & FX it has, modular structure, CV and the fact that it couldn't record audio until v6 at all.

Listening to the tracks that are posted here on the forum, it is obvious that there are several other genres being made with Reason, besides 'electronic' music. There is also a whole bunch of 'electronic' genres that do include live instruments and vocals. Ever seen a picture of Vangelis's studio?

Should I then suggest they should ignore your feature requests & focus on mine?

Nope, they should focus on what THEY think is best to bring their product forward. The point is that they will focus on things that have broad appeal, while many feature requests, like here on the forum, obviously lack the notion of broad appeal and are often very application or genre-specific. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for QoL improvements like markers, track folders, etc. But I also wouldn't mind seeing stuff that I'm sure has absolutely NO (or at least little) broad appeal, and therefore I refrain from posting those.

[crimsonwarlock]

So if RS is indeed not going for the supposedly low hanging fruits and easy to implement workflow improvements, why is that? Is it harder to implement as we think, for instance folder tracks? Maybe it doen't fit their design philosophy? Because flashy new devices sell better than folder tracks?

Track folders might constitute a complete rewrite of the tracks infrastructure. We simply don't know. Also, you don't want to implement 'simple' things in a simple way because any initial implementation will trigger follow-up developments, and you want to anticipate that as good as possible.

Bottom line: there is no 'simple' in software development.

[dioxide]

I have to agree with antic604 here. Netflix is a passive thing, where I'm not actively doing or making things, and I do that to relax. Music making requires focus and effort for the most part – it is an active pursuit. When I decide to make a song I'll decide to work in either Ableton or Reason. So for example most of this weekend I was doing a collab we spent in Ableton because he is an Ableton user. If I'd had my way we'd have been using Reason but most of these tasks you only do once – sequence the drums, Reason, set mixer levels, Ableton etc. So it's one or the other.

Someone on Facebook nailed it, commenting that the interview seems to be aimed at investors not users. I'd agree with that. Either Verdane are fluffing up RS to see if they can find a buyer, or just that Niklas is talking in language that his peer group understands – tech / start-up talk. There's nothing in the interview for users that we didn't already know and the interview could just have appeared on a tech blog like The Verge as a music website. Anyway the best thing to come out of this interview for me is that people here will be mentioning Netflix at every opportunity for months – me included

[EnochLight]

Again, it's not specifically "Netflix" or even "Steam". The entire point was: making Reason fun/inspiring enough to compete for your time against shit you'd otherwise be doing (watching movies/TV or playing video games. Or reading a book. Or going to the mall). Etc...

[avasopht]

Someone on Facebook nailed it, commenting that the interview seems to be aimed at investors not users. I'd agree with that. Either Verdane are fluffing up RS to see if they can find a buyer, or just that Niklas is talking in language that his peer group understands – tech / start-up talk.

It's communicating in the terms of the high-level vision.

Investors pay more attention to this scope. Nintendo have a near-identical identity as a "toy-maker", yet they continue to be the #1 industry innovator who set the gold standard for games design. Like RS, Nintendo differentiated themselves from Microsoft and Sony so that they are not competing with them.

That's how Apple differentiated themselves from IBM and IBM compatibles.

That's how Motown evaluated their records with their "would you rather buy this song or a cheeseburger"? metric.

[EnochLight]

The choice is always Netflix vs. music-making time, then between DAWs within that music-making time.

Right, so the choice is always [OTHER CRAP THAT ENTERTAINS YOU AND TAKES UP YOUR TIME] vs. music-making time.

Niklas' point is to make sure that Reason is the thing that draws you away from that other crap. And yes, we already know that Bitwig fills this time for you.

And yes, Mattias made it clearer:
- Niklas says Reason shouldn't compete with other DAWs on features, instead it should compete for our time [THAT YOU WOULD SPEND DOING OTHER CRAP THAT ENTERTAINS YOU]

Fixed that for you.

- for me, and I'm beating the dead horse at this point, Reason competes for my music-making time with other DAWs; hence why I disagree with Niklas

That much is clear.

[guitfnky]

good lord dude, you’re still trying to tell other people what they actually meant?

[DaveyG]

Some of the mods on this forum really need to think about stepping down imho.

[EnochLight]

Some of the mods on this forum really need to think about stepping down imho.

You're not wrong. It's a thankless job that we all do for free, and continually dealing with spambots, trolls, passive aggressiveness, and grown people who behave like children can get tiring.

[jklok]

So I guess the idea is that he's saying that if you can afford Netflix and Steam accounts, you should easily be able to afford a Reason+ subscription?

The problem is that most people share their Netflix and Steam accounts with a large family. I don't think many Reason users share their bedroom studio with anyone.

It is a space they cherish as a sacred domain to create a possible path to something that might seem difficult to understand for anyone other than themselves.

It's your typical domestic conflict: you're sitting in your "studio", inaccessible to anyone working on endless projects that no one will ever accept as something that could turn your hobby into a real job. The monthly expense is therefore in their eyes a total waste because the children do not use it to take precious time from their parental tasks.

But on the other hand, buying this Christmas gift software is something more easily accepted by everyone. It's like buying a guitar or a saxophone because you want to learn something new and valuable. Where as making strange electronic music in the bedroom is just a waste of valuable time you could be using together with the kids watching Netflix and playing games?

Speaking from my own experiences here.

[EnochLight]

So I guess the idea is that he's saying that if you can afford Netflix and Steam accounts, you should easily be able to afford a Reason+ subscription?

No, that's not what he's saying at all. I'd recommend you read the entire thread.

[jklok]

I read the entire thread and as an interview, the real meaning of it all is rather vague and unclear. As a registered user of Reason since version 2, I think the actual direction of the company is becoming less and less clear. But I know that the latest updates will make any perpetual license easily convertible to a forced upon rental model, and I think many people are aware of this and therefore avoid updating their software at the moment.

[guitfnky]

Some of the mods on this forum really need to think about stepping down imho.

You're not wrong. It's a thankless job that we all do for free, and continually dealing with spambots, trolls, passive aggressiveness, and grown people who behave like children can get tiring.

other than the thankless job bit, this literally describes every member of any online forum of any size.

[avasopht]

I read the entire thread and as an interview, the real meaning of it all is rather vague and unclear. As a registered user of Reason since version 2, I think the actual direction of the company is becoming less and less clear. But I know that the latest updates will make any perpetual license easily convertible to a forced upon rental model, and I think many people are aware of this and therefore avoid updating their software at the moment.

This is what I wrote earlier:

"It's communicating in the terms of the high-level vision.

Investors pay more attention to this scope. Nintendo have a near-identical identity as a "toy-maker", yet they continue to be the #1 industry innovator who set the gold standard for games design. Like RS, Nintendo differentiated themselves from Microsoft and Sony so that they are not competing with them.

That's how Apple differentiated themselves from IBM and IBM compatibles.

That's how Motown evaluated their records with their "would you rather buy this song or a cheeseburger"? metric."

Maybe YOU think forcing a rental model on those with perpetual licenses makes business sense, but that doesn't mean everyone in business thinks anything like that.

[jklok]

I just pray that Reason doesn't get swallowed by Avid or Adobe, because I don't like any of their software as a way to improve the user interface. As mentioned before, looking in the Fairlight/Resolve direction would be something much more exciting in my opinion. And stop naming your modules after regions and such, because what would it look like if someone made a "USA" synthesizer along the lines of the latest Spokane designs. This is just poor creative direction IMHO. Over and out.

[dioxide]

I read the entire thread and as an interview, the real meaning of it all is rather vague and unclear. As a registered user of Reason since version 2, I think the actual direction of the company is becoming less and less clear. But I know that the latest updates will make any perpetual license easily convertible to a forced upon rental model, and I think many people are aware of this and therefore avoid updating their software at the moment.

Yeah I agree, it has to be the least enlightening interview we've seen from someone at RS / PH. At least it gets Reason in front of people's eyeballs though, so it serves for that at least. In general I'd say the development of Reason is looking good. It's taking time but the last few years are definitely moving in the right direction.

[jam-s]

And stop naming your modules after regions and such, because what would it look like if someone made a "USA" synthesizer along the lines of the latest Spokane designs. This is just poor creative direction IMHO. Over and out.

To enlighten you on this: Europa is in line with the other gods of mythology theme for Reason synths: Thor, Neptune and Europa (the Greek goddess after which the continent is named). So a "USA" synthesizer seems highly unlikely to me. And if the continent theme were applicable it would be "Amerika" then, imho.