tools or toys?

[EnochLight]

tools or toys?

Obligatory...

[guitfnky]

tools or toys?

Obligatory...

this thread is not for fence-sitters!

[Mistro17]

I would like to see focus on more sequencer features that will make the sequencer feel like a toy...a fun one. I like the feel of a sequencer that is as fun to use as making the music. Also more musician focused tools (like markers for chord progressions in the sequencer) with some visual theory toys would be a bonus.

[guitfnky]

I would like to see focus on more sequencer features that will make the sequencer feel like a toy...a fun one. I like the feel of a sequencer that is as fun to use as making the music. Also more musician focused tools (like markers for chord progressions in the sequencer) with some visual theory toys would be a bonus.

great point, it’s like there’s a paradox that can happen when adding features—new features often benefit the workflow, so the software can get out of the way of the creativity (e.g. not needing to use workarounds to achieve a goal). that means adding tools can sometimes result in the boring stuff being more fun, and feeling more like a toy than a tool.

[LittleBoy]

Reason was always a rack of toys made to look and behave like hardware.

I brought Reason as a DAW but what initially got my interest was the toys that came with in, I preferred the stability of the rack over other DAW's and vst combinations and I'm glad I did.

But after 20 years of Reason and later Rack Extensions I've grown to the point that I don't have much need for a new toy unless it's something unique ( Friktion and Algorithm ) were my last purchases and I got them because I had cash that I hadn't used for anything in ages so RS generally knows how to hit that spot (excluding mimic) and I guess that's why it's stock.

As for the DAW features at some point,
well RS generally includes something new in the DAW now weather you think it's a "feature" or not I guess is up to you for example I definitely don't see removing the groove mixers skin as a feature but some will,

the same as the automation curve I guess it's a feature that I use but really it's more like correcting a mistake as it should have been there but no matter how you think it's listed as features, enhancements to the DAW are there they perhaps just aren't big enough to shout about.

Think about this if midi pass through / routing gets implemented is it really something that RS can shout about? Not really it's in every other daw on the market but for me it's the one missing feature/mistake that I've waited for the longest but it's definitely not going to interest RRP users they want new toys.

the thing that continues to boggle my mind is that most Reason users buy into it because it’s easy to pick up, but eventually get to the point where they’re frustrated by some caveman-basic bit of DAW functionality available anywhere else. it seems like adding a bunch of really simple shit would put Reason right in the sweet spot for a whole lot of people. super easy to pick up, super inspiring, not bloated, but also not missing any glaring basics. I’m no marketer, so maybe I’m way off here, but goddamn, I would lose my shit with joy if they just filled the gaps.

and I think back to when I started working in modern DAWs—holy hell would I have been excited to use something like that. I was excited about Reason, but knew it was missing a lot when I started—having an easy, inspiring learning curve AND all the basics seems like such a no-brainer.

This is the best definition I can think of: Fill the gaps.

People who have been with Reason for 20 years are frustrated because the software shortcomings are actually very basic, and it is difficult to understand that many of them are not fixed. I don't want Reason to be cluttered with advanced features that are used from time to time. But it is unforgivable that there is no VST3 support in 2021, or that there is no multitimbral MIDI, track folders or video player support (Reason has the best sound design tools of all DAWS, it would be perfect for cinema and video game sound design).

If Reason Studios wants to go with the plug-in and abandon the DAW, let them do so, but be honest with their customers, especially those who have paid for their product for two decades. In the last 2 years we have had these improvements for the DAW (in 2 years):

-Added MP3 export
-It's now possible to create a Player in a new rack by dragging and dropping it onto a rack divider.
-Browsing for Default Song Template in the Preferences will now open a regular OS file browser.
-Feature: Shift+doubleclick on note in Edit mode selects that note + all following notes until end of clip.

It's honestly a joke.

[plaamook]

They also added...
Cross fades (which I used to death)
A kind of half asses vertical zoom (which I’ve given up criticising)
Some midi editing adjustments
Can’t think of the others off top of my head but there are more, I’m sure of it.

[EnochLight]

A kind of half asses vertical zoom (which I’ve given up criticising)

How is the vertical zoom in the sequencer half assed? Just curious - as I use it all of the time without issue.

[plaamook]

A kind of half asses vertical zoom (which I’ve given up criticising)

How is the vertical zoom in the sequencer half assed? Just curious - as I use it all of the time without issue.

Because when you zoom out it doesn’t zoom to the vertical position if the curser, it zooms down from the top, so you have to scroll back to where you were.

[slic]

I guess I am on of the very few that voted Toys!

I love the creative, fun and easy to use side of Reason...there are a ton of 'serious' DAWS- you can get Reaper for next to nothing and run Reason as a rack if that is your bag....Personally, I want fun creative tools and leftfield thinking. In my opinion DAWS are dull dull dull, the 'spreadsheets' of the musical world, avoid whenever possible!!! Oh, and if you want to record live bands, maybe a small jazzband or even an orchestra...Reason is probably the wrong tool....if you are sat an your own making predominantly electronic music, Reason is just about as good as it gets...other DAWS are just different, not better.

[guitfnky]

I guess I am on of the very few that voted Toys!

I love the creative, fun and easy to use side of Reason...there are a ton of 'serious' DAWS- you can get Reaper for next to nothing and run Reason as a rack if that is your bag....Personally, I want fun creative tools and leftfield thinking. In my opinion DAWS are dull dull dull, the 'spreadsheets' of the musical world, avoid whenever possible!!! Oh, and if you want to record live bands, maybe a small jazzband or even an orchestra...Reason is probably the wrong tool....if you are sat an your own making predominantly electronic music, Reason is just about as good as it gets...other DAWS are just different, not better.

I'll agree on one point--Reason is definitely different. but it's objectively worse as a DAW--that's something that I don't think can be argued with a straight face. better as a creative toy, absolutely, but not even close to anything else out there as a serious tool. sounds like you would have been okay with Reason remaining a sequencing and sound-design playground like it was before they introduced the ability to record audio, which is of course totally fine. but since they DID turn Reason into a DAW, they should either shit or get off the pot when it comes to that side of things. I'd be unhappy if they decided to remove the DAW side of things, but at least it would mean they'd made a decision.

the strangest thing is, it doesn't have to be one or the other. why shouldn't it be a competent DAW AND a super inspiring creative tool? they've hit the creative sweet spot already--but they've let the DAW lag further and further behind in terms of features, while adding more and more toys. it's like a really good cake, and the only thing they can think to do to tweak the recipe is to add more sugar. I don't get it.

[LittleBoy]

They also added...
Cross fades (which I used to death)
A kind of half asses vertical zoom (which I’ve given up criticising)
Some midi editing adjustments
Can’t think of the others off top of my head but there are more, I’m sure of it.

Those additions came with version 11. I say in the following 2 years.

[LittleBoy]

I guess I am on of the very few that voted Toys!

I love the creative, fun and easy to use side of Reason...there are a ton of 'serious' DAWS- you can get Reaper for next to nothing and run Reason as a rack if that is your bag....Personally, I want fun creative tools and leftfield thinking. In my opinion DAWS are dull dull dull, the 'spreadsheets' of the musical world, avoid whenever possible!!! Oh, and if you want to record live bands, maybe a small jazzband or even an orchestra...Reason is probably the wrong tool....if you are sat an your own making predominantly electronic music, Reason is just about as good as it gets...other DAWS are just different, not better.

Reason is a great recording tool. Reason's problem is another. But for recording bands, it may be the simplest and most efficient DAW out there.

[LittleBoy]

I guess I am on of the very few that voted Toys!

I love the creative, fun and easy to use side of Reason...there are a ton of 'serious' DAWS- you can get Reaper for next to nothing and run Reason as a rack if that is your bag....Personally, I want fun creative tools and leftfield thinking. In my opinion DAWS are dull dull dull, the 'spreadsheets' of the musical world, avoid whenever possible!!! Oh, and if you want to record live bands, maybe a small jazzband or even an orchestra...Reason is probably the wrong tool....if you are sat an your own making predominantly electronic music, Reason is just about as good as it gets...other DAWS are just different, not better.

I'll agree on one point--Reason is definitely different. but it's objectively worse as a DAW--that's something that I don't think can be argued with a straight face. better as a creative toy, absolutely, but not even close to anything else out there as a serious tool. sounds like you would have been okay with Reason remaining a sequencing and sound-design playground like it was before they introduced the ability to record audio, which is of course totally fine. but since they DID turn Reason into a DAW, they should either shit or get off the pot when it comes to that side of things. I'd be unhappy if they decided to remove the DAW side of things, but at least it would mean they'd made a decision.

the strangest thing is, it doesn't have to be one or the other. why shouldn't it be a competent DAW AND a super inspiring creative tool? they've hit the creative sweet spot already--but they've let the DAW lag further and further behind in terms of features, while adding more and more toys. it's like a really good cake, and the only thing they can think to do to tweak the recipe is to add more sugar. I don't get it.

That's what I think: Why can't a good DAW be compatible with fun toys? I don't think anyone expects Reason to ever have all the editing features and all the video, surround, or post-production tools of Logic, Nuendo, or ProTools, but it still has major shortcomings that it wouldn't cost as much to integrate. VST3 support or track folders are not exactly revolutionary or sophisticated features.

[plaamook]

They also added...
Cross fades (which I used to death)
A kind of half asses vertical zoom (which I’ve given up criticising)
Some midi editing adjustments
Can’t think of the others off top of my head but there are more, I’m sure of it.

Those additions came with version 11. I say in the following 2 years.

Hmm.
Ok yeah. I was also disappointed that there wasn’t a decent point update.
Looking at R+ it seems like there won’t be many of those in the future for license holders.
It’s the back of the bus for us lot!

[plaamook]

VST3 support or track folders are not exactly revolutionary or sophisticated features.

They are to some of the folks round here.
I almost wet myself when we finally got cross fades!

[selig]

This is the best definition I can think of: Fill the gaps.

If only it was that simple. Sure we all only have a dozen or so “must have” missing features to fill the gap but my dozen or so features is different from yours, with little overlap multiplied by tens of thousands of users and “fill the gaps” suddenly balloons into an overwhelming amount of “catch up” to be done before any of us are truly satisfied. Results: most of us will never be anywhere near 100% satisfied.

[guitfnky]

This is the best definition I can think of: Fill the gaps.

If only it was that simple. Sure we all only have a dozen or so “must have” missing features to fill the gap but my dozen or so features is different from yours, with little overlap multiplied by tens of thousands of users and “fill the gaps” suddenly balloons into an overwhelming amount of “catch up” to be done before any of us are truly satisfied. Results: most of us will never be anywhere near 100% satisfied.

true, but it also depends how you define “gaps”. to me, it’s something that’s a well-established industry standard that’s available in the majority of other DAWs. that’s still pretty vague, but it does eliminate quite a lot (e.g. allowing users to add as many controls as they want to their combis wouldn’t be a gap, because it’s not available in other DAWs).

ultimately it doesn’t matter how we describe it—we just want our functionality!

[LittleBoy]

VST3 support or track folders are not exactly revolutionary or sophisticated features.

They are to some of the folks round here.
I almost wet myself when we finally got cross fades!

And for me they would also be very good improvements. I speak from a technical point of view. VST3 support is not like MPE support (which is newer and more specific), it is something a decent DAW must have.

[LittleBoy]

Fill the gaps is fill the gaps.

"add as many controls as they want to their combis " it's more of a personal preference. But having access to all the VST3 tools or being able to make a track folder are basic things of our profession that can be done for years in other DAWs.

Fill the gaps is solve the most basic deficiencies.

[selig]

Fill the gaps is fill the gaps.

"add as many controls as they want to their combis " it's more of a personal preference. But having access to all the VST3 tools or being able to make a track folder are basic things of our profession that can be done for years in other DAWs.

Fill the gaps is solve the most basic deficiencies.

Your list of "most basic deficiencies" is going to be different from mine. So I get you want them to fill YOUR gaps, we ALL want them to fill OUR gaps.
It's just there are SO many gaps that need filling that individually speaking it's unlikely OURS will ever be completely addressed.

[sublunar]

the thing that continues to boggle my mind is that most Reason users buy into it because it’s easy to pick up, but eventually get to the point where they’re frustrated by some caveman-basic bit of DAW functionality available anywhere else. it seems like adding a bunch of really simple shit would put Reason right in the sweet spot for a whole lot of people. super easy to pick up, super inspiring, not bloated, but also not missing any glaring basics. I’m no marketer, so maybe I’m way off here, but goddamn, I would lose my shit with joy if they just filled the gaps.

This x100

[LittleBoy]

Fill the gaps is fill the gaps.

"add as many controls as they want to their combis " it's more of a personal preference. But having access to all the VST3 tools or being able to make a track folder are basic things of our profession that can be done for years in other DAWs.

Fill the gaps is solve the most basic deficiencies.

Your list of "most basic deficiencies" is going to be different from mine. So I get you want them to fill YOUR gaps, we ALL want them to fill OUR gaps.
It's just there are SO many gaps that need filling that individually speaking it's unlikely OURS will ever be completely addressed.

Yes, that is true. But you will agree that there are more "relevant" features than others. VST3 support is a must in a professional sound software. And generally, there are 10 or 12 functions that a vast majority would agree on.

[selig]

Your list of "most basic deficiencies" is going to be different from mine. So I get you want them to fill YOUR gaps, we ALL want them to fill OUR gaps.
It's just there are SO many gaps that need filling that individually speaking it's unlikely OURS will ever be completely addressed.

Yes, that is true. But you will agree that there are more "relevant" features than others. VST3 support is a must in a professional sound software. And generally, there are 10 or 12 functions that a vast majority would agree on.

I’m listening…

[guitfnky]

Yes, that is true. But you will agree that there are more "relevant" features than others. VST3 support is a must in a professional sound software. And generally, there are 10 or 12 functions that a vast majority would agree on.

I’m listening…

you’re surely not expecting us to list them again. it seems like you’re trying to prove some kind of point, but maybe missing the actual point in the process. one doesn’t even have to opine about what constitutes an industry standard feature—just look at other DAWs and see where there’s feature overlap.

and sure, we’ll all have different ideas for which of those should take priority, but that’s hardly the point, when they introduced just 7 of the dozens of QOL improvements they could have added by now, into the last release. it goes to the fundamental question of this thread—what should they be focused on? if they focused on the tools for a while, we could expect way more than 7 improvements every year or two.

[LittleBoy]

Yes, that is true. But you will agree that there are more "relevant" features than others. VST3 support is a must in a professional sound software. And generally, there are 10 or 12 functions that a vast majority would agree on.

I’m listening…

Every once in a while in this community someone posts a "what should be next Reason" list, and usually a lot of the stuff matches, and the following comments do as well:

VST3 support.
Multitimbral MIDI for VST.
Folder tracks.
Video support.
Improved audio edition tools.
Improved metering tools.
Retrospective record.
Improved MIDI editor.
Mono mode on master.
Mix scenes.
Hide channels/groups on mixer.


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