Cakewalk vs Reason

Want to talk about music hardware or software that doesn't include Reason?
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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

guitfnky wrote:
03 Feb 2020
a cursory look at their forums makes it readily apparent that they’re very much invested in Cakewalk. the devs are all over the forum, very responsive to issue requests, and they’re constantly working to improve the program. they put out updates on a very regular basis (every couple of months). and it’s not just bug fixes, but adding new functionality.
What do you think is Bandlab's long game strategy ? It's been 18 months since the acquisition, and they are obviously operating at a loss, to have such good customer service, social media engagement & a development team. The only monetizing at present seems to be a few budget audio interfaces under the Bandlab brand.

When I did the install, I got the Windows warning of 'do you trust this developer' or whatever, and noted that it's Bandlab Singapore LTE. So I did some digging, and found that the DAW was purchased by Singaporean entrepreneur Kuok Meng Ru, the son of a billionaire.

Along with the Cakewalk acquisition, He also purchased a chain of music stores in the South East Asia, I guess the region's equivalent to Guitar Center, called Swee Lee Music, and quite amazingly, took over a 49% stake in Rolling Stone magazine in 2016 and is the brand's CEO.

https://www.mumbrella.asia/2019/01/sing ... ce-in-asia

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Back to 'Cakewalk vs Reason' features:

Sequencer Looping: In Cakewalk, It's as simple as click>drag a section on the timeline, and pressing 'set loop points' button. No need to have to scroll for ages as in Reason, where we need to find the L & R, which is a pain in the @ss. Yes, I'm aware of the funstionality where you can select a clip, and hit ctrl+L , but that's of no use when working with continuous audio that spans an entire track.

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orthodox
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Proboscis wrote:
04 Feb 2020
Back to 'Cakewalk vs Reason' features:

Sequencer Looping: In Cakewalk, It's as simple as click>drag a section on the timeline, and pressing 'set loop points' button. No need to have to scroll for ages as in Reason, where we need to find the L & R, which is a pain in the @ss. Yes, I'm aware of the funstionality where you can select a clip, and hit ctrl+L , but that's of no use when working with continuous audio that spans an entire track.
You can Ctrl/Command-click on the ruler to set the L loop marker location, and Alt/Option-click for the R marker.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Easy to access 'Notes' panel that resides in a right-side pop out. Within this popout are three commonly used panel, being Media / Plugins / Notes. When you need more screen space, it's as simple as selecting the arrows to the far right to fold it out of view.

And notice the name/album/artist/copyright & image placeholder. Haven't tested it, but I'm going to assume this is file metadata, customizable from right within the project !

Reason's only native alternative is to use the 'Song Information' screen, which when launched, freezes all functionality while it's open :roll:

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

orthodox wrote:
04 Feb 2020
You can Ctrl/Command-click on the ruler to set the L loop marker location, and Alt/Option-click for the R marker.
Great suggestion - I did not know that :thumbs_up: However it's 2x more work (four clicks) than Cakewalk (two clicks). But I'm being a bit pedantic to argue that minuscule point of difference. :lol:

Appreciate the tip

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

With two clicks, Cakewalk shows music notation, which is printable. Further options to add lyrics & chords to below/above the staff

Another two clicks to print off guitar tablature in text / ASCII format

Not sure what the fretboard option does - I was hoping this would highlight notes being triggered while playing, which for me would be an INCREDIBLE feature to play along to - so I'll need to investigate this function a little more unless someone can offer tips.

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Export to whatever format you want, rather than the developer deciding we only want WAV.

Choices.. how about that !

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

In two clicks, 'Fit MIDI Content' brings only the populated notes into view. Saves having to scroll up and down to search for notes

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guitfnky
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Post 04 Feb 2020

QVprod wrote:
04 Feb 2020
guitfnky wrote:
03 Feb 2020


I have to respectfully disagree here. Bandlab may not have had their hands on Cakewalk for very long, but even a cursory look at their forums makes it readily apparent that they’re very much invested in Cakewalk. the devs are all over the forum, very responsive to issue requests, and they’re constantly working to improve the program. they put out updates on a very regular basis (every couple of months). and it’s not just bug fixes, but adding new functionality.

yes, Sonar was a paid product, and most of the main features were developed under that sales structure, but Cakewalk’s development team is pretty clearly dedicated to making it the best DAW they can.
Presonus isn’t involved in their forums pretty much at all if we use that as a barometer. I think customer service is a slightly different conversation than Reason as a product but I’ll submit that that’s part of the product for some.
forum engagement is only part of the picture. Reason devs are incredibly dedicated to Reason (whatever I may think of their recent direction), and their involvement on these forums is almost nonexistent by comparison.

the point is, the Cakewalk devs are involved so heavily in their forums *because* of their dedication, but it’s not the only way to show dedication. the real proof is the frequency of their updates, and responsiveness to issues that crop up.

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guitfnky
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Proboscis wrote:
04 Feb 2020
guitfnky wrote:
03 Feb 2020
a cursory look at their forums makes it readily apparent that they’re very much invested in Cakewalk. the devs are all over the forum, very responsive to issue requests, and they’re constantly working to improve the program. they put out updates on a very regular basis (every couple of months). and it’s not just bug fixes, but adding new functionality.
What do you think is Bandlab's long game strategy ? It's been 18 months since the acquisition, and they are obviously operating at a loss, to have such good customer service, social media engagement & a development team. The only monetizing at present seems to be a few budget audio interfaces under the Bandlab brand.

When I did the install, I got the Windows warning of 'do you trust this developer' or whatever, and noted that it's Bandlab Singapore LTE. So I did some digging, and found that the DAW was purchased by Singaporean entrepreneur Kuok Meng Ru, the son of a billionaire.

Along with the Cakewalk acquisition, He also purchased a chain of music stores in the South East Asia, I guess the region's equivalent to Guitar Center, called Swee Lee Music, and quite amazingly, took over a 49% stake in Rolling Stone magazine in 2016 and is the brand's CEO.

https://www.mumbrella.asia/2019/01/sing ... ce-in-asia
I suspect they make more $ than we might think. bandlab is a sort of social site, and they have another web-based DAW that I have to assume is far less powerful than Cakewalk (but more convenient, for non-DAW-users). I’m not sure if they have ads, but I bet they’re finding ways to make money from that to fund Cakewalk, or at least planning on it.

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QVprod
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Post 04 Feb 2020

guitfnky wrote:
04 Feb 2020
QVprod wrote:
04 Feb 2020


Presonus isn’t involved in their forums pretty much at all if we use that as a barometer. I think customer service is a slightly different conversation than Reason as a product but I’ll submit that that’s part of the product for some.
forum engagement is only part of the picture. Reason devs are incredibly dedicated to Reason (whatever I may think of their recent direction), and their involvement on these forums is almost nonexistent by comparison.
That‘s exactly the point I was making in my first post.

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

guitfnky wrote:
04 Feb 2020
I suspect they make more $ than we might think. bandlab is a sort of social site, and they have another web-based DAW that I have to assume is far less powerful than Cakewalk (but more convenient, for non-DAW-users). I’m not sure if they have ads, but I bet they’re finding ways to make money from that to fund Cakewalk, or at least planning on it.
You raise a good point. It's unlikely the owner needs to monetize at all, coming from a family that is one of the top 100 wealthiest in the world. Maybe it's just a pet business. Off on a slight tangent here, before the craft beer boom, it was not uncommon for independently wealthy guys to own microbreweries, simply so they could say 'I own a brewery'.

But, to make money in the digital age is often not about directly selling a flagship product. If there are 100,000 Cakewalk users, that's a very large list of customers, with a clear focal point of their interests. Facebook marketers would kill for such a list, since they don't need to burn through $$ finding their niche target audience. To use that for marketing purposes (for example selling that list to advertisers in related industries, or running their own ad agency managing ad campaigns) is a value in and of itself, even if Cakewalk remains free. As with Google, we as the end users are not the customers, rather we are the product they are selling.

And from my early first impressions of Cakewalk, I'm perfectly fine with that :lol:

Here's an exerpt from a 2016 article in 'The Business Times', a Singapoean publication, which validates your theory

BandLab debuted (for web, Android and Apple iOS devices) in August 2015 and is generating millions of dollars in annual revenue, according to Mr Kuok. The startup is aiming to be the social network of choice for fans and musicians.

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Do you want COLORS ? Unlike Reason's limited, and often terrible and hard to see text/grid, palette, Cakewalk allows the selection of any custom colors, which immediately carries over from the console to the sequencer and the ProChannel display. It allows for 48 presets & 16 further user defined options with RGB input.

EDIT: To clarify, there are not 48 + 16 colors available, thats just the system & user defined preset pallet. In reality, the RGB spectrum allows over 16 MILLION COLORS, therefore Cakewalk's custom track colors are also 16 million.

I have longed for this... as an example to set some housekeeping rules where all drums are a shade of blue, all synths a shade of yellow, all guitars a shade of brown etc etc. With Cakewalk I can create a set of custom palettes and immediately know what I'm looking at in projects that have a lot of tracks


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Last edited by Proboscis on 04 Feb 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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guitfnky
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Post 04 Feb 2020

QVprod wrote:
04 Feb 2020
guitfnky wrote:
04 Feb 2020


forum engagement is only part of the picture. Reason devs are incredibly dedicated to Reason (whatever I may think of their recent direction), and their involvement on these forums is almost nonexistent by comparison.
That‘s exactly the point I was making in my first post.
I wasn’t disagreeing with the assertion that RS cares about their product. I was disagreeing with the implication that Bandlab didn’t care as much about theirs, in suggesting that it wasn’t a fair comparison.

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

guitfnky wrote:
04 Feb 2020
bandlab is a sort of social site, and they have another web-based DAW that I have to assume is far less powerful than Cakewalk (but more convenient, for non-DAW-users).
Just discovered what you are referring to. That's pretty amazing

Propellerhead: Make a web based synth (Europa)
Bandlab: Have an entire multi-instrument DAW online

And they have an Alihoopa style music community, with direct upload from the regular DAW and the web DAW, that isn't shut down :roll:

OK, I'm calling it now. Bandlab NEED TO PURCHASE REASON ! We need a progressive, attentive company to take Reason into the future. :thumbs_up:

Here's how it's going to look:

Cakewalk reverts back to the full SONAR suite with all the plugins that were stock (including that much loved CA-2A Compressor), plus the addition of Reason as a plugin. All owners of SONAR get version 1 for free, and so do all owners of Reason. The DAW part of Reason is retired, as an old racehorse put out to pasture because it can no longer stay in the race with every other thoroughbred on the track. 80% of the longstanding feature requests don't need to be addressed, because Cakewalk already has them.

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Proboscis
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Post 04 Feb 2020

ONE THING that Reason (as a DAW) has over Cakewalk is the vocal pitch editing.

Although with deep pockets, maybe they will introduce Melodyne as standard, which is far superior, since AFAIK handles guitar takes as well. And Melodyne is already 'kinda' integrated, albeit as a trial (thats a moment where my discovery went from JOY to SADNESS when I launched it and was hit with an 'activate trial' prompt )


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QVprod
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Post 04 Feb 2020

guitfnky wrote:
04 Feb 2020
QVprod wrote:
04 Feb 2020


That‘s exactly the point I was making in my first post.
I wasn’t disagreeing with the assertion that RS cares about their product. I was disagreeing with the implication that Bandlab didn’t care as much about theirs, in suggesting that it wasn’t a fair comparison.
You misunderstand. I was implying that Cakewalk being free and feature rich is a bad comparison to imply that RS doesn't care about Reason.

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QVprod
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Post 04 Feb 2020

Proboscis wrote:
04 Feb 2020
ONE THING that Reason (as a DAW) has over Cakewalk is the vocal pitch editing.

Although with deep pockets, maybe they will introduce Melodyne as standard, which is far superior, since AFAIK handles guitar takes as well. And Melodyne is already 'kinda' integrated, albeit as a trial (thats a moment where my discovery went from JOY to SADNESS when I launched it and was hit with an 'activate trial' prompt )


>
cakewalk_melodyne.PNG
Should they ever create a paid version, maybe. Studio One also has ARA (same as Cakewalk). However only their professional version comes with a version of Melodyne, and thats just the essentials version.

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Proboscis
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Post 05 Feb 2020

QVprod wrote:
04 Feb 2020
Should they ever create a paid version, maybe. Studio One also has ARA (same as Cakewalk). However only their professional version comes with a version of Melodyne, and thats just the essentials version.
From the old archived pages relating to SONAR, it appears that was also the same story, regarding Melodyne Essentials. I would say the referral commission paid to Celemony from other DAWs would mean nothing would change. Unless of course Bandlab buy Celemony :lol:

Out of interest, QV, and since you've mentioned Studio One / Presonus a couple of times... why are you using two DAWs, now that R11 allows seamless integration of all your rack instruments and routing to be used anywhere ? Force of habit, comfortable familiarity or are there aspects of Reason (as a DAW) that surpass S1 ?

In doing this little exercise, I didn't realize I would uncover so many shortcomings in Reason, and I haven't yet even used Cakewalk for a project. I'm probably going to stop looking for comparisons for now, since I don't own R11, but for me in the space of a few hours of active research, it's gone from 'likely never switching DAW' to 'quite likely to switch DAW come R12'. At that time I'm guessing I'll find even more features that I never imagined as missing from Reason. Cakewalk has certainly ticked a lot of boxes on my wishlist.

In the end, Propellerheads have created the ability for users to never upgrade again, after one last exit-tax. And when there are more feature-rich DAWs that are either free (Cakewalk) or cheap (Reaper at $60), there's few incentives to stay.

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Post 05 Feb 2020

I wouldn't say linked / aliased clips should have been implemented in Reason 2 decades ago but certainly in Reason 8. 8 was sold as the "workflow" edition and aliased clips should have been in that. Ganged Faders also should've been but as we know, that has now been implemented. Muting notes has which also should've been in 8 and Time Markers, Undo History and Manual Parameter Inputs with Copy / Paste should've also been in 8. All key workflow / time saving features. Midi Chase, remember last note length, note displays and scroll muting / soloing on tracks, devices and clips as well.
:reason:

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reddust
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Post 05 Feb 2020

Proboscis wrote:
04 Feb 2020
Do you want COLORS ? Unlike Reason's limited, and often terrible and hard to see text/grid, palette, Cakewalk allows the selection of any custom colors, which immediately carries over from the console to the sequencer and the ProChannel display. It allows for 48 presets & 16 further user defined options with RGB input.

EDIT: To clarify, there are not 48 + 16 colors available, thats just the system & user defined preset pallet. In reality, the RGB spectrum allows over 16 MILLION COLORS, therefore Cakewalk's custom track colors are also 16 million.

I have longed for this... as an example to set some housekeeping rules where all drums are a shade of blue, all synths a shade of yellow, all guitars a shade of brown etc etc. With Cakewalk I can create a set of custom palettes and immediately know what I'm looking at in projects that have a lot of tracks


>
cakewalk_colors.PNG
This is a feature I wonder why Reason and other DAWs haven't implemented yet, I don't get the point of limiting the color palette to a short list.

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QVprod
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Post 05 Feb 2020

Proboscis wrote:
05 Feb 2020


Out of interest, QV, and since you've mentioned Studio One / Presonus a couple of times... why are you using two DAWs, now that R11 allows seamless integration of all your rack instruments and routing to be used anywhere ? Force of habit, comfortable familiarity or are there aspects of Reason (as a DAW) that surpass S1 ?

In doing this little exercise, I didn't realize I would uncover so many shortcomings in Reason, and I haven't yet even used Cakewalk for a project. I'm probably going to stop looking for comparisons for now, since I don't own R11, but for me in the space of a few hours of active research, it's gone from 'likely never switching DAW' to 'quite likely to switch DAW come R12'. At that time I'm guessing I'll find even more features that I never imagined as missing from Reason. Cakewalk has certainly ticked a lot of boxes on my wishlist.
I’ve actually been using 2 DAWs since Reason 7. Bought S1 At version 2 because I wanted a proper VST host for when I needed to use more ‘real’ instruments a la Kontakt. I was actually one of the firsts to suggest the midi out workaround, but it was never a practically good one. From there it also became my preferred DAW to record and mix because it’s actually built with audio production in mind (Like most other DAWs). While Reason is capable, the workflow involved with routing in the rack just slows that process down. Reason to me was always more like the software equivalent of a workstation keyboard such as the Motifs, Fantoms, Tritons...etc... Plus in version 3, S1 added a few Reason like features in their massive overhaul.

Aside from that, while the sequencer in S1 is certainly more feature packed, I never really had much of a problem with Reason’s sequencer for midi. I’m a keyboard player though, so I play everything in so most of the fancy stuff in S1 goes unused. The UI of Reason is a bit more inspirational to work in, especially if I went to experiment or layer. There’s also no replacement for using cv to modulate something. When I want to auto pan something in S1, it’s a process... whereas in Reason it’s as easy as loading up a Pulsar. That said I did start using S1 more nowadays with the Rack plugin. Mainly because I got spoiled by the VSTs I acquired to avoid using Rewire, so I use them a lot now and Reason’s VST hosting just feels a bit weird next to rack devices. I’d have far less VSTs if the plugin had came out a few years ago.

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guitfnky
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Post 05 Feb 2020

reddust wrote:
05 Feb 2020
Proboscis wrote:
04 Feb 2020
Do you want COLORS ? Unlike Reason's limited, and often terrible and hard to see text/grid, palette, Cakewalk allows the selection of any custom colors, which immediately carries over from the console to the sequencer and the ProChannel display. It allows for 48 presets & 16 further user defined options with RGB input.

EDIT: To clarify, there are not 48 + 16 colors available, thats just the system & user defined preset pallet. In reality, the RGB spectrum allows over 16 MILLION COLORS, therefore Cakewalk's custom track colors are also 16 million.

I have longed for this... as an example to set some housekeeping rules where all drums are a shade of blue, all synths a shade of yellow, all guitars a shade of brown etc etc. With Cakewalk I can create a set of custom palettes and immediately know what I'm looking at in projects that have a lot of tracks


>
cakewalk_colors.PNG
This is a feature I wonder why Reason and other DAWs haven't implemented yet, I don't get the point of limiting the color palette to a short list.
the crazy thing is, AFAIR the Reason palette we have now *is* expanded. before, it was even more limited. can’t remember which version they added the new colors, but it might have been version 8.

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orthodox
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Post 05 Feb 2020

reddust wrote:
05 Feb 2020
This is a feature I wonder why Reason and other DAWs haven't implemented yet, I don't get the point of limiting the color palette to a short list.
I understand the point. To me, the list is better than the whole color space to pick from. I can remember the color name or its position in the list, otherwise I would have to keep in mind what colors I already used look like.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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Proboscis
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Post 05 Feb 2020

QVprod wrote:
05 Feb 2020
Thanks for your response. It's always interesting to hear the process & mindset of others.

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