Help with Post Punk / Darkwave Reverb / Vibe

[mbfrancis]

I'm making a post-punk / darkwave EP, and I have the instrumentation and songwriting down, but I need help with overall vibe and production, especially use of reverbs and mixing bass vs drums.

The instrumentation is pretty simple - drum machine, bass with some parallel distortion, some driven chorused guitar and minimal synth. Here are examples (new and old) of the vibe I'm going for:

Not postpunk but what is this vocal reverb:

Any ideas / tips appreciated - what type of revers are they using on the drums? on all of them? what are they using on the vocals? Lots of white noise effects on Joy Division, things like that. How are they establishing vibe? Many thanks!

[TritoneAddiction]

I don't know much about this particular genre. But thinking of just a fitting reverb for drums, Fat Space by Synapse Audio comes to mind. It's easy to dial in a gated reverb. You can chose both reverb length and reverb shape. You can also adjust width, Lo cut and Hi cut to taste. I use it sometimes to thicken up drums.

I copied the kick and snare pattern from the first track and tried to dial in a somewhat similar reverb. Obviously the sample choices themselves will have a great affect on how the reverb sounds.

[mbfrancis]

Love it thanks, I actually have Fat Space and it works great

[selig]

Love it thanks, I actually have Fat Space and it works great

Don't laugh, but I was listening to the examples thinking "Fat Space" is where I'd start on the drums, or the original AMS algorithm from UAD if I was mixing in LUNA.
Fat Space actually has more control, but the AMS has "that sound" from the era. Gotta love them both!

That was the sound I was immersed in when I started my first job in the studio world in 1984, a stupid kid surrounded by lots of the popular tools of the day, and somehow given permission to set it all up and make music with it. Of course we had the both AMS units (the reverb and the delay/sampler), many Lexicons (224, 480, PCM70s) that were the sound of that era for me. Mix it on an SSL and you're well on your way to full immersion in that wonderful world IMO.

[Benedict]

A lot of the 79-82 stuff would have been old analog and or new digital devices depending on how fancy the studio.

I think the thing tho is not to be thinking of what device/s but what was the mindset.

This record was chasing a similar vibe (without trying to clone anything). As usual I used a multi-layerd approach with echoes on instruments feeding another set of echoes on the send. None of the really diffuse modern reverb. Hz Multiplier could be a major player in the Reverb Send slot on here, I don't recall exactly what without opening projects. Even if it was another of my devices it would have been a similar approach. The Echo and Ripley play well for these once you understand the approach.

[selig]

Just a heads up that all but one of those examples are from THIS century, the artists weren’t even born in the early 1980s!
The Cure is a re-mastered 1981 track, so a better example of what was actually available at the time.
So it’s not necessarily about using only what was available at the time, unless of course all of the example artists only used tools from the early 1980s.

Ether way, it was a great time to be in the studio making music, and I was lucky to have been able to have access to those tools at such a heady time in tech history!

There is one aspect to remember - we weren’t stacking effects because there were only a handful available on each mix, and few tracks on tape to print extra FX. For example, I remember we (Castle Recorders) had two digital reverbs in the early 1980s, the EMP 250 (R2D2) and the Lexicon 224. The 480/Lark came in the mid 1980s. We also had two plates, but they were not in great shape. There were also two delays, a Lexicon Prime Time and the AMS delay. But that was it! And of course I used the SSL Quad Compressor (master bus compressor on the E series), probably with the same settings I still use today!

The SSL had four mono sends and one stereo (cue) send, and we barely had enough FX to fill those slots. The SSL could access individual sends by using the small fader and busses, but that’s really only one more send per channel. And even then, it felt like way more than was needed!!!

So one key to the sound was using only a few FX in total, which is a huge contrast to today when stacking FX is the norm.
Here’s an example from 1986, the very first full major label album I mixed!
Recorded/mixed at the Castle Recorders, by this time we had the Lexicon 480 but you can hear I leaned heavily into the AMS Non-lin2 algorithm on the drums for that classic 80s sound. I was NOT going for the typical “Nashville” sound on any level, being way more influenced by the sounds you referenced in your original post.

It is 100% an “80s sound” but the whole album still holds up today IMO!

[WOO]

Any ideas / tips appreciated - what type of revers are they using on the drums? on all of them? what are they using on the vocals? Lots of white noise effects on Joy Division, things like that. How are they establishing vibe? Many thanks!
[/quote]

The cults song was supposedly recorded at outland studio in berkeley. Maybe you could contact for info on what they used for effects on the session. That's assuming the same people who worked the session are still there.

[mbfrancis]

So weird I wrote a big thank you earlier and it didn't post - thanks so much Selig and Benedict for the extensive history and tips, I'll watch the tutorial later=. Yeah Fat Space works great with longer times mixed low. The track I'm working on is sounding great, not 100% there but waaaay better.

Actually 17 Seconds by the Cure (1980) still sounds amazing all the way through - Play for Today might be the ne plus ultra post punk recording:

[MarkTarlton]

This is right up my alley. I have tons of records in this genre. Shoeegaze, Darkwave, Post Punk, Dream Pop, etc...

As a producer of this kind of music I strongly recommend the Valhalla suite, and it's what I use a lot of in addition to all the typical stuff you probably already use. The guy who makes these plug ins is actually a huge fan of this type of stuff too, and made some of these based on some of the classic units that the older bands used.

In terms of vocals I like having a couple sends that I sculpt the reverbs with EQ so it can blend better or stand out depending on what the song calls for. Vintage Verb, Shimmer, Uber-Mod, Delay, and also a few others I might try depending on what I am going for. I like effects and am heavy handed with them when appropriate for the music.

Ones that you can try that i like a lot... Uber-Mod for chorus and modulations, you really should check out the reverse reverb patch, it's incredible.

The Room reverb is really good for drums, I like it on snare and guitars, heck really anything sounds good, try layering that with another longer reverb and/or delay.

The Valhalla delay has a really good wobble preset that I use a ton in the guitar folder, it works on a lot of stuff I do. I usually customize it but it's a great starting point.

Shimmer is really cool too, think Cocteau Twins vocals, you can get a lot of cool effects out of tweaking that one. None of the Reason effects are as easy and intuitive in my opinion and take a lot of time to get the results I can get with the Valhalla stuff. I also use other stuff as well but I feel like my productions would take a lot longer without these in my arsenal. i love them! I have over 200 RE's and I use them everyday but for this kind of music I tend to reach for the Valhalla stuff first.

Check out the band Drab Majesty if you haven't. They're one of my faves in the past 5-10 years. Very cool stuff. Andrew has a couple other projects. VR Sex is pretty cool, I love everything he does. His guitar and synth work is very original and stands out in this modern age to my ears.

[MarkTarlton]

Here is a song I wrote and used a lot of Valhalla stuff on. I mixed it and played drums and synths. It's a band I'm in called Asteroid No. 4

[selig]

Here is a song I wrote and used a lot of Valhalla stuff on. I mixed it and played drums and synths. It's a band I'm in called Asteroid No. 4

Sounds great as usual Mark - I always enjoy everything you post!

[mbfrancis]

Sorry was out of town over the weekend and offline

Here is a song I wrote and used a lot of Valhalla stuff on. I mixed it and played drums and synths. It's a band I'm in called Asteroid No. 4

Wow, hey Mark great as always to hear from you, wow I didn't realize you were that into shoegaze/darkwave, that track is wonderful, so rich and well balanced, which is hard. I put out a Shoegaze/90s EP https://open.spotify.com/album/1OugV3cE ... fxL-0eFBw in September.


For Valhalla I have Vintage Verb plus the free ones (Feq Echo, Space Modulator, Super Massive). Doesn't Vintage Verb have a lot of the classic 80s hardware we're talking about, could I get by with that and Fat Space and some free convolutions - I reeeeealy don't want to buy any more VSTs, although the Valhalla ones are all high value...

I'm trying to limit options on this project, recording guitar/bass through pedals and amps and hardware. Drums are either TR505, Linn, or Oberheim DMX samples though hardware (EQ/saturation/effects). Keys are all from my 1980 Yamaha Electone or various 80s Casio home keyboards.

I could do hardware reverb - I have an old Roland DEP5 which has a wonderful modulated reverb. I'm using a lot of real spring reverb from a Yamaha PA mixer.

Sorry rambling, you guys are awesome.

[MarkTarlton]

Vintage Verb can go a long way along with the other effects you mentioned. You don't need to buy anything else. The stuff you're doing is great. I always go through phases where I feel I need to change things up or get a new tool, when you have a good song the music will guide you regardless of what tools you use to get the results you desire. At the end of the day it's your ear and taste. Just keep making good music and everything else will fall into place. You might have to work a little harder, it's a fun journey getting there even if you land in a different spot than you were looking towards

All the gear you mentioned is perfect for those sounds too. I have a lot of that stuff, and use it as well. I have been loving GForce lately, the DMX is really fun. All their synths are top notch and sound great. I sometimes find myself going back to older songs where I had way less options, and the results were still very good, which is telling because a lot of the older bands were very limited with their tools as well. The songs and creativity you apply to them is the main ingredient of the outcome. I have to remind myself when I get bored or stagnant that buying a new gadget might be a good idea to help inspire me, or help me to come up with something new, but it's not a requirement. Going over forums and reading up on gear I already own can spark a new idea as well. Or learning some new songwriting techniques...or just simply finding new music to listen to. It all helps the creative brain that never ceases to stop.

[mbfrancis]

Vintage Verb can go a long way along with the other effects you mentioned. You don't need to buy anything else. The stuff you're doing is great. I always go through phases where I feel I need to change things up or get a new tool, when you have a good song the music will guide you regardless of what tools you use to get the results you desire. At the end of the day it's your ear and taste. Just keep making good music and everything else will fall into place. You might have to work a little harder, it's a fun journey getting there even if you land in a different spot than you were looking towards

All the gear you mentioned is perfect for those sounds too. I have a lot of that stuff, and use it as well. I have been loving GForce lately, the DMX is really fun. All their synths are top notch and sound great. I sometimes find myself going back to older songs where I had way less options, and the results were still very good, which is telling because a lot of the older bands were very limited with their tools as well. The songs and creativity you apply to them is the main ingredient of the outcome. I have to remind myself when I get bored or stagnant that buying a new gadget might be a good idea to help inspire me, or help me to come up with something new, but it's not a requirement. Going over forums and reading up on gear I already own can spark a new idea as well. Or learning some new songwriting techniques...or just simply finding new music to listen to. It all helps the creative brain that never ceases to stop.

Thanks Mark, appreciated! I'll check in as we get closer.