Speculation about new dude

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friday
Posts: 180
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 16 Aug 2019

Why are so many here always so pessimistic? I'm still evolving with Reason, it is a super inspiring music making tool. Yes it has his weaknesses, but on the other side a super inspiring vibe. You can start it, dive into it and experiment in seconds, the whole Player-Thing is a source of innovative music exploration for the next 5 years (now with delta even more mind blowing). I always wasn't so happy with the announcements of the new versions, but when i used them, it made sense to me. So for me they are just on track. But I also have to say, what makes me the most happy with Reason is not the Tool, it is that my ears and pruduction skills got better! So don't cry about the CEO, better take the time, we use to find the fool of the others, to evolve your own reason skills :-)

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 16 Aug 2019

There is a lot of hate for Reason Compact. I was sceptical at first but after diving in with it i think it has the potential to be frikin’ awesome! I totally dig the 3 synth jam format, if it had independent midi control and pattern slots in the sequencers it would be a total power house. The synths themselves are little beauties. I dream of doing live sets with Reason Compact hooked up to a Beatstep Pro.

As far as this new guy goes, let him count the beans . Presumably Props has a creative dept. full of synth devs that make the good stuff.

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 16 Aug 2019

raymondh wrote:
15 Aug 2019
Undistraction wrote:
15 Aug 2019
He's been handed a failing company with a rapidly shrinking user base,
I thought Props was a private company. If you have financials or user base data that would be very interesting!
You can get Swedish financials any time you like. They're a bit out date because they're always a year behind, which is a bit frustrating, so we only have up to 2017.

https://translate.google.co.uk/translat ... %2Fbokslut

"Failing company" as Unidistraction puts it I'd say is a bit of a stretch. I see no evidence of that. Stagnating , on the other hand, is pretty clear: there's a solid profit but absolutely zero growth.

So here's something that isn't speculation because it's right there in the figures: tellingly, the number of employees was down by a third between 2015 and 2017 (from 44 down to 28), yet with income pretty much the same (Reason 8 was 2014, so one can possibly explain the 2016 bump (R9 release) over 2015 (no new release), so a lot of that increased profit over the period is in reality savings through reduced wages.

Crucial there is that 2017 was both a major Reason update (9.5 with frickin' VST) and an upgrade year (R10), yet PH made slightly less in revenue than in 2016. So it's fair to suggest* less people upgraded to Reason 10 in 2017 than upgraded to Reason 9 in 2016. At the time I think I even said it was strange they released upgrades in consecutive years; a lot of people don't upgrade every year. I still don't know why they didn't keep R10 back until Spring 2018 (the Reason 10.1 featureset perhaps?).

It's interesting that last time such speculation came up (when only the 2016 figures were available), Ernst himself piped up with "most of this speculation is wrong". I really don't know why he did that because the problem with making that statement is that he thus confirmed some—or even much—of the speculation was actually correct. After all, "most" is as little as 51%. So another way of writing "most of the speculation is wrong" is "some of this speculation is right".

If the speculation were wrong he would have just written "The speculation is wrong". :lol:

______
*We don't have granular breakdown for, e.g. RE revenue, subs revenue, the countless millions in ReCycle sales alone etc. I've estimated in the past that the biggest stream is Reason upgrades, at least in a Reason upgrade year, with up to around $2m in their % from third party REs. Their own REs at 100% revenue is probably $1-2m. The regularity that full Reason licenses get slashed (or discount-converted from the free Lite advertising licenses) I can't believe they're selling many full-price licences these days (although in the interest of balance, is anyone? It might be no-one is). I'd be curious to know if the income includes RE party sales; it says "Net sales", so presumably they shouldn't, otherwise it'd be gross sales, yes/no?

Ermitage
Posts: 37
Joined: 21 Apr 2018

Post 16 Aug 2019

boingy wrote:
16 Aug 2019
The new CEO is in place because that's the deal PH cut with the venture capitalists at the outset. They invest in a company with a view to selling it in 3 to 5 years. Part way through that they install their own CEO to ensure that the "value" of the company is optimised for that sale. That means going for short-term sales boosts and reducing costs. Once the company is sold the CEO stays in place for 6 to 12 months then moves on to the next company the VCs have bought.

It's not a death knell for PH but the VCs are purely about profits and do not take a long-term view of a company. It can be a positive thing because they are not afraid to make unemotional decisions about products and practices that maybe should have been dropped years ago. If you go to any company that is still being run my its founders you'll find quite a few examples of "but we've always done it like that" - systems and practices that everyone accepts but that maybe are not appropriate any longer. But it can also be a negative thing because they tend to cut resources on anything that will not pay back in the short-term. I've seen it first hand. Just be happy you are not a PH employee...
Oh boy, I can already picture the inMusic acquisition announcement.

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MattiasHG
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Post 16 Aug 2019

Luxuria wrote:
16 Aug 2019
I quoted the first tweet in my original post. Sorry for not being clear. He hasn't said anything "new" that we hadn't already heard from prior to him taking seat as CEO.

A tweet about his future plans or ambition behind taking the position would be welcome, but Ernst never talked about such matters either so I guess its the same routine with Niklas. And if I wanted to be informed on all things Magic the Gathering I'll just follow Mattias.
I tweet about other things too! But I'm an individual first on social media, not an employee of Propellerhead. :)

In terms of answering or not answering questions, it's a balancing act. As you know, we are generally tight-lipped about the future (though we've eased up a bit on it—for example my communication around Reason 10.3). Many questions are just "will you do X" or "is Y coming in Z" and I simply can't answer those. But even though I don't respond to everything, I read pretty much everything.

A majority of the things we've done since Reason 9.5 (the first version I managed) is based on user feedback. It's important to note there are tons of different types of Reason users and music makers though. They all have different needs so if something is a horrible feature to you, it might be the best thing ever for someone else. I don't believe replacing me as product manager would change that ;)

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 16 Aug 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019


I tweet about other things too! But I'm an individual first on social media, not an employee of Propellerhead. :)

It’s true. I’ve seen him tweet a lot about 90’s style shoot-em-up games as well. :lol:

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MattiasHG
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Post 16 Aug 2019

Jackjackdaw wrote:
16 Aug 2019
MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019

I tweet about other things too! But I'm an individual first on social media, not an employee of Propellerhead. :)
It’s true. I’ve seen him tweet a lot about 90’s style shoot-em-up games as well. :lol:
And sometimes guitar pedals and modular synths! I'm a person of many interests :lol:

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artotaku
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Post 16 Aug 2019

JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 Aug 2019
So here's something that isn't speculation because it's right there in the figures: tellingly, the number of employees was down by a third between 2015 and 2017 (from 44 down to 28), yet with income pretty much the same (Reason 8 was 2014, so one can possibly explain the 2016 bump (R9 release) over 2015 (no new release), so a lot of that increased profit over the period is in reality savings through reduced wages.
The cut down of employees could also partly be explained by the founding of Allihoopa, effectively moving some of the Propellerhead employees to the new company. If they didn´t made any profits with Allihoopa the wages of these employees had to be payed still. Assuming they made no profits with Allihoopa either there has been a new invest from outside investors or the Allihoopa employees have been cross-financed by Propellerhead. If this is true the increased profit may not be explained solely by reduced wages.

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reddust
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Post 16 Aug 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019
A majority of the things we've done since Reason 9.5 (the first version I managed) is based on user feedback.
That's my impression too, so I hope you have seen the poll about what reason users want to have in Reason 11 (Sequencer vs mobile and so... ;) )

Here the link just in case:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7512587

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 2094
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Post 16 Aug 2019

artotaku wrote:
16 Aug 2019
JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 Aug 2019
So here's something that isn't speculation because it's right there in the figures: tellingly, the number of employees was down by a third between 2015 and 2017 (from 44 down to 28), yet with income pretty much the same (Reason 8 was 2014, so one can possibly explain the 2016 bump (R9 release) over 2015 (no new release), so a lot of that increased profit over the period is in reality savings through reduced wages.
The cut down of employees could also partly be explained by the founding of Allihoopa, effectively moving some of the Propellerhead employees to the new company. If they didn´t made any profits with Allihoopa the wages of these employees had to be payed still. Assuming they made no profits with Allihoopa either there has been a new invest from outside investors or the Allihoopa employees have been cross-financed by Propellerhead. If this is true the increased profit may not be explained solely by reduced wages.
Totally unrelated but just been listening to your track "Critical Mass". <3 Smooth!!
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

2017 MBP | 16GB | Steinberg UR44 | Reason 10.4 | Cubase Pro 10.5

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friday
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Post 16 Aug 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019
But even though I don't respond to everything, I read pretty much everything.

I don't believe replacing me as product manager would change that ;)
Wow thats a statement, to even post here, in this negative afflicted thread! Thanks Matthias

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diminished
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Post 16 Aug 2019

friday wrote:
16 Aug 2019
MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019
But even though I don't respond to everything, I read pretty much everything.

I don't believe replacing me as product manager would change that ;)
Wow thats a statement, to even post here, in this negative afflicted thread! Thanks Matthias
+1

Page 2 was good, actual speculation and discussion somewhat based on facts, but page 1, for the most part, is a trainwreck.

And for the love of God, people, try to seperate company policy from the people doing their jobs. Like, in general.

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MattiasHG
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Post 16 Aug 2019

friday wrote:
16 Aug 2019
MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019
But even though I don't respond to everything, I read pretty much everything.

I don't believe replacing me as product manager would change that ;)
Wow thats a statement, to even post here, in this negative afflicted thread! Thanks Matthias
Haha don't worry, I was a forum user before I ever worked at Propellerhead. I don't think it's a wholly negative thread, just a lot speculation and opinions. Everyone's free to do that. :)

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Luxuria
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Post 16 Aug 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
16 Aug 2019
Luxuria wrote:
16 Aug 2019
I quoted the first tweet in my original post. Sorry for not being clear. He hasn't said anything "new" that we hadn't already heard from prior to him taking seat as CEO.

A tweet about his future plans or ambition behind taking the position would be welcome, but Ernst never talked about such matters either so I guess its the same routine with Niklas. And if I wanted to be informed on all things Magic the Gathering I'll just follow Mattias.
In terms of answering or not answering questions, it's a balancing act. As you know, we are generally tight-lipped about the future (though we've eased up a bit on it—for example my communication around Reason 10.3). Many questions are just "will you do X" or "is Y coming in Z" and I simply can't answer those. But even though I don't respond to everything, I read pretty much everything.

A majority of the things we've done since Reason 9.5 (the first version I managed) is based on user feedback. It's important to note there are tons of different types of Reason users and music makers though. They all have different needs so if something is a horrible feature to you, it might be the best thing ever for someone else. I don't believe replacing me as product manager would change that ;)
Let me see ask you some questions that aren't so X,Y,Z.

So much of your guys attention has been Reason Compact 2.0. I understand that every program has to start somewhere, but on the matter of uniqueness. What Pheads has been promoting with Compact hasn't given much options to users. For instance, Rytmik seems like a step backwards in terms of not being able to sample load when you guys were promoting sampling loading as a cool new feature in Reason. From the Facebook reply, it was stated that because IOS doesn't support that feature, Rytmik also doesn't. Why willingly force yourself into a corner if you knew sample loading wouldn't be possible. So now you have everyone using the same samples for drums so everyone's percussion sounds the same. Then you've got Monotone and Europa which are limited to 1 instance per device on Mobile and you further limit the an artist from creating their own sound and separating themselves from everyone else who uses Compact. How are you addressing the issue that Compact is simply creating a "Compact sound" similar to the "Reason sound" stigma that was created due to overuse of Reason presets.

My main concern is the core Reason program. I see the efforts in VST optimization with update 10.3 but beyond that I don't know where you guys are envisioning the program going. What do you guys want Reason to be in the next 5 years? Is it a sandbox of synths that are supported by simple recording features, is it a professional DAW you'd like to see more studio's have installed on engineer's desktops, is it none of those?

When preparing major or even minor point updates, what determines how much of that user feedback is implemented? It seems that whenever you release a feature, there is always something not quite complete about it. Is it resource limitations such as staff or are you purposefully choosing to introduce things at a slow pace? For instance, the themes decision to omit the mixer from getting the blue/dark themes perplexes me. I'm sorry but you really let me down on the 10.2 workflow update. You add multi lane editing for MIDI but neglect audio and the rest of the features I can count on one hand. What gives? Other DAW's are competing to meet as many demands as their customers throw at them and you guys seem like your twiddling your thumbs trying to come up with what to add next. Please let us know if this is intentional or that you really are trying but the tasks aren't as easy to implement because no one can tackle Reason's old coding from 20 years ago.

I hope you can realize that being so tight lipped is hurting your fans who want nothing more but the best for Propellerhead and Reason. I really love making music and mixing other people's projects on the side using Reason. I want to know that Propellerhead has the best interest in users both old and new. That every device is easy to learn but difficult to master. That every update is an attempt to touch base with as many user requests as possible and there is no delay in order to milk us slowly because sooner or later we will get sick of waiting and drop your platform altogether.

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CloudsOfSound
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Post 16 Aug 2019

I get that some people are pessimistic by nature, but this thread is a tad on the apocalyptic and conspiracy-like side for my taste, and the post's topic is rather pointless to begin with.
Anyway.
  1. Nothing of what's being said is backed up by actual facts or numbers. How can you prove that Reason has a "Rapidly declining user base"?
    Personally I hear more people talking about Reason now than I've done before, and the various reviews made by important influencers are exclusively positive.
  2. Propellerheads has been through major changes on the administrative and investor / business side the last two years or so, but this is not unique for a company of this size.
    Basically what we're seeing here is just a small company trying to make the best out of what they've got, by maximizing the ROI of their existing IP, and trying to find ways to penetrate the growing "mobile music creation" segment of the market using existing code wrapped in fancy new wrapping.
  3. Concerning Reason as a desktop DAW, this is obviously where most of their revenue comes from, combined with some income from the Rack Extension store, so any CEO will understand that this is the area to keep focusing on.
    Also, most of the programmers that works for Propellerheads seems to be happy and dandy from what I can see from the statements made by the product managers and the Reason software team leader.
So, chillax a bit and enjoy life for a moment.

Don't create negative rumors and doomsday scenarios in peoples heads by spreading false information based on personal opinion, and the world will be a better place.
In the end we'll all die anyway.
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(Intel i7 QuadCore / Radeon Pro 450 2GB / 16GB RAM)
macOS Mojave v.10.4.6
Software Developer and Wannabe Musician
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reggie1979
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Post 16 Aug 2019


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aeox
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Post 16 Aug 2019

Is anyone still making music?
Last edited by aeox on 16 Aug 2019, edited 1 time in total.

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Raveshaper
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Post 16 Aug 2019

friday wrote:
16 Aug 2019
Why are so many here always so pessimistic?
  • People have invested in this platform in good faith
  • There are very few investments being made in valuing their decision
  • The community and official lines of communication were scrapped wholesale
That about sums up the major causes for it.

People obviously wouldn't get angry about it unless they cared and wanted the best for the company and product of their choice. You'll find negativity everywhere, from me as well of course, but this is different. Cutting the user community off completely has sort of laid a foundation of pessimistic culture that was already brewing because none of the issues in the software were getting patched and no public statements about this trend were being made. It's as if they wanted to send a message that not only were those things not getting fixed at the time, they never would be fixed and we should shove off if we didn't like that. As if to say to the customer "we don't serve your kind around here".

Obviously that has still, to this day, had a lasting impact on those loyal to this platform.
A lot of people have left because that hasn't changed in any meaningful way.

The response to and engagement with user feedback has been a major selling point for every other DAW out there. They put that right in the first 30 seconds of their walkthroughs, etc., so you know that they listen and care. It takes a shark to survive in business, and a whole bunch of them smell the blood of what this brand is doing wrong.

And that's going to be the toughest damn thing for Niklas. I wish him well, and I hope he's capable of doing something about the following:
  • Learning this program involves discovery of limitation, rather than harnessing potential
  • User experience of this product is synonymous with lengthy bad practice work-arounds
  • They have had 20 years and some things still aren't fixed
  • The brand image is synonymous with broken, outdated things
  • The entire paradigm of the platform is an anachronism.
That's the final off-topic elephant in the room. Nobody is competing with Reason at doing what it does because users find that way of working confusing or counter intuitive. Wires in the computer? Why. That's weird. This dude Niklas somehow has to spin the positive of insisting on doing things differently like that -- in ways that are basically harder than patching a wire in real life -- and then modernize that same backward business model into finding new relevance without betraying its own dogma.

In short, Reason has to grow up and become contemporary, but it is defined by its 90's software vibe and "virtual museum of retro devices" identity. It can't do both, and seemingly won't do either.

Good luck, Niklas.
:reason: :ignition: :re: :refillpacker: Enhanced by DataBridge v5

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boingy
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Post 16 Aug 2019

It is strange that no other DAW has done the rack and wires thing. Maybe it remains unique to Reason for an, um, reason.

My biggest worry is that the next desktop version of Reason will only run in a browser like that synth demo. The tech world will bow at the awesomeness of the technical achievement but we users will wonder why everything is slower and clunkier.

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 16 Aug 2019

Raveshaper wrote:
16 Aug 2019




  • Learning this program involves discovery of limitation, rather than harnessing potential
  • User experience of this product is synonymous with lengthy bad practice work-arounds
  • They have had 20 years and some things still aren't fixed
  • The brand image is synonymous with broken, outdated things
  • The entire paradigm of the platform is an anachronism.
I agree with all these points to some extent except maybe the last one. I think the skeumorphism is what makes Reason so fun to use creatively and gives it its soul, it’s a bit off trend at the moment for sure but Cubase is still rocking fake wood everywhere as well. In the ‘What do you love about Reason thread’ everyone expresses the sense of exploration that Reason provides and a big part of that is because of it’s unique GUI. I think Props do a great job of playing to Reasons strengths with regards to marketing. It’s very accessible and affordable, has a fantastic App Store style ecosystem , has great learning resources and can produce professional results. A lot of people want that and appreciate it. I don’t think Props goal is to make Reason the beating heart of high end studios, but yeah they do need to face up to the jank in the core product because it does piss everyone off to some extent.

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modecca
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Post 16 Aug 2019

nik2.JPG
What would a real AI do to few who figured out it intentionally failed?
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¡ɹǝɥʇoɥɔɐǝ ɟo doʇ uo pǝʞɔɐʇs llɐ 'sǝɹuǝƃ ʇuǝɹǝɟɟᴉp 9 uᴉ 'sƃuos ʇuǝɹǝɟɟᴉp 9 oʇ ƃuᴉuǝʇsᴉl ɟo soɐɥɔ ƃuᴉɯlɐɔ ǝɥʇ ǝʞᴉl ƃuᴉɥʇou sᴉ ǝɹǝɥ┴

zoidkirb
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Post 16 Aug 2019

boingy wrote:
16 Aug 2019
It is strange that no other DAW has done the rack and wires thing. Maybe it remains unique to Reason for an, um, reason.

My biggest worry is that the next desktop version of Reason will only run in a browser like that synth demo. The tech world will bow at the awesomeness of the technical achievement but we users will wonder why everything is slower and clunkier.
Other daws do have cabling but it's not as central as Reasons cabling - Ableton Live has always had Max, and Bitwig has it's new modular Grid. Cables are here to stay and I guess Props will continue to improve them and simultaneously let people work without ever needing to touch a single cable. They've already been on that path for a while as you can load synths, fx , audio channels without once pressing tab. Hell, Players don't even have cables.

Browser only Reason: do you really think Props hate their users that much ? :lol:

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Luxuria
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Post 16 Aug 2019

foreshadowing.jpg
:shock:
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ejanuska
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Post 16 Aug 2019

Luxuria wrote:
16 Aug 2019

:shock:
Luxuria, you are nailing it. You said everything I feel about Reason like you read my mind. I was real surprised to see Mattius stick his neck out in this thread, but not surprised to see him retreat after faced with real questions.
New CEO doesn't give a damn about anything but profits. No news there. He reminds me of a chef that goes from failing restaurant to failing restaurant.
I love lots of things about Reason but there are glaring deficiencies that must be implemented before anyone is coming over from any other DAW, including FL.
Only the super flexibility and ease of use of the rack has kept me around. The sequencer is a fucking wreck. The mixer hasn't seen a change since I can remember, and I remember using Record.
I haven't been at RT much lately because its toxic and makes me want to dive into Ableton more. I mean I have NI Komplete and if I really need some synth from reason I can just do a workaround of some sort. Otherwise I have dynamics, synths, percussion, etc.
In closing, give me a reason to bail by not updating shit in R11. I dare you.

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hurricane
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Post 16 Aug 2019

I don't get some of you guys. There's nothing wrong with using a second DAW.
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music
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