Reason 10: Not Very Impressed

[antic604]

Sometimes all those discussions about GUI makes me wonder what ppl really do with Reason? Looking at it? It is a god damn tool to work with. And i am pretty sure, as soon as PH made it more customizable, more themese, vector graphics, look like every other DAW, fancy little buttons and big menus all over the place which nobody understands or even knows, the same ppl would start crying about: It looks so bad, it is so difficult, the workflow is worse, the colors, the big scaled UI is always in my way, blablabla... Just good we have the internet and we can talk about it again and again and again...

I think this was already discussed numerous times, but in my particular case I'd love them to *just* double / triple the resolution of everything and add internal scaling / zoom option, like Live or Bitwig have.

As is, I need to use 200% Windows scaling for the GUI to look sharp, because it is then upscaled evenly to 2x2 pixels. But then everything becomes big, as it's effectively a resolution of 1362x912. On the 12'' screen of Surface Pro I could easily go higher to 175% (1563x1042) or 150% (1824x1216) which I can comfortably use with above mentioned DAWs and still control everything with confidence, but it starts to get very blurry and tiring for the eyes after several minutes in, because scaling becomes uneven as a patterns of interweaving 2x2, 1x2 and 2x1 pixels. If it was scaled down from say a 4K image, it would be much less aparent, but it's actually scaled up from microscopic - by today's standards - bitmaps.

Sure, there are other issues, in particular with very ineffective use of space by the GUI with the thick bars between work areas, big transport bar, wasteful toolbar in sequencer or sequencer track spacing itself, but those would be much less of a nuisance if I could comfortably use Reason at higher resolution. Because right now it's as if I'm looking at it through at keyhole in a door.

And I know it's a tool to be used to write music, but one of the reasons I picked up Reason was its skeuomorphic graphical & workflow paradigm, so - at least for me - how it looks is important. And actually, when I squint my eyes and look at the sequencer, rack and mixer it IS the most visually appealing DAW out there, just wished I didn't had to squint my eyes

[Ermitage]

I think the problem here is that there is no trajectory - there is nothing whatsoever being done to improve the now ancient UI and update or resolve it's myriad issues. I don't think anyone really expects it to do everything perfectly, but nothing has been improved at all for years. PH have sat back and done nothing to improve the skin and bones of Reason and what we are now at the point where people are giving up any hope of this happening. I think if PH didn't have such a hold over people who have invested in REs, many more would be jumping ship (myself among them).

I mean they really have done almost nothing (other than VST support and tweaks to the file browser) for literally years.

We can all imagine that a new version is just around the corner, and I really hope it is, but we have to face the truth that maybe it isn't or maybe it's still years away. Or maybe when it arrives it will be another cynical content release.

I "jumped ship" despite having several REs.

Or maybe a better way would be to say that I stopped using training wheels. As a result I can now cycle faster.
I do still use Reason occasionally, but then it's usually just for playing around and making short loops.

[madmacman]

Sometimes all those discussions about GUI makes me wonder what ppl really do with Reason? Looking at it? It is a god damn tool to work with.

*sigh*

The user interface is the main approach to the tool. And it needs to be up to par with today's standards of user interface (or user eXperience) design. Otherwise you could still consider Fairlight's Page R as a mature and working solution.

[Krell]

[/quote]
I must admit: Reason's SSL mixer is one of the stronger parts for mixing purposes. And I enjoy it every time I use Reason. The mixers of other DAW's (I know Cubase and Logic) are a bit too "technical" (for the lack of a better word).
[/quote]

The SSL emulation may be great but the size of the text, buttons and knobs is so microscopic as to be laughable. In addition the fact that you have to have the mixer either full screen or sectioned to accomodate the full height of each channel strip is painfully at odds with the 'landscape' nature of computer monitors. It's simply painful to actually work with as it's applying a real console skeuomorphism on to a screen composed of pixels that is these days HD, UHD or 4K. The advantage of the computer is the ability to display what you need when you need it and PH don't seem to have grasped this as yet.

[antic604]

In addition the fact that you have to have the mixer either full screen or sectioned to accomodate the full height of each channel strip is painfully at odds with the 'landscape' nature of computer monitors.

Yeah, that would be solved - or at least mitigated somewhat - by being able to arrange the screens in a more flexible manner: I'd love to have one working area* for sequencer as is and 2nd for rack + mixer, but put side-by-side instead of on top of each other, with a single key to switch between them. I don't need those "MIXER", "RACK" and "SEQUENCER" bars visible all the time and taking up valuable space, because I never use them.

* I mean this for a single screen setup, ie. a laptop

[selig]

The SSL emulation may be great but the size of the text, buttons and knobs is so microscopic as to be laughable. In addition the fact that you have to have the mixer either full screen or sectioned to accomodate the full height of each channel strip is painfully at odds with the 'landscape' nature of computer monitors. It's simply painful to actually work with as it's applying a real console skeuomorphism on to a screen composed of pixels that is these days HD, UHD or 4K. The advantage of the computer is the ability to display what you need when you need it and PH don't seem to have grasped this as yet.

I’ve never had a problem with the size of the text. Besides, just like with real hardware, you don’t read the text every time you use it, as the position and color of controls gives you the feedback you need once you learn the basics of where everything is.

While I acknowledge the layout isn’t perfect, Reason already has the “ability to display what you need when you need it” (and I use this all the time) by collapsing sections of the mixer when not needed. I often collapse the sends and inserts when starting a song, and I collapse the EQ and Dynamics if not using them. I also constantly switch views because I don’t need to see everything all fo the time, which is the advantage of using a computer for this (having come from working on hardware SSL mixers of 48-80 channels, which requires lots of physical movement to reach everything!).

My problem is I’m stuck on the vertical layout for mixers. I’ve tried to envision/design alternate UIs for a mixer (as a fun exercise) and struggle to see an alternative. Best I can come up with is a way to combine the horizontal sequencer/recorder with the mixer functions so it’s all on one screen, which (as with any solution) has advantages and disadvantages …


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[esselfortium]

Given that REs all have 4k versions sitting in the vault, it'll clearly happen sooner or later, but I assume that the reason we haven't seen high-resolution graphics implemented yet is because on standard 1080p displays Reason still looks exactly as intended.

As a 1080p display user, Reason's interface is sized comparably to other software I use, and I have a hard time imagining myself wanting to zoom in to see less instead of out to see more.

[selig]

Given that REs all have 4k versions sitting in the vault, it'll clearly happen sooner or later, but I assume that the reason we haven't seen high-resolution graphics implemented yet is because on standard 1080p displays Reason still looks exactly as intended.

As a 1080p display user, Reason's interface is sized comparably to other software I use, and I have a hard time imagining myself wanting to zoom in to see less instead of out to see more.

Indeed, I wonder how much more screen real estate is actually necessary. Coming from the hardware world where you have to have a well-oiled chair to move around quickly to get work done, I’m a fan of having everything on one 27” monitor (leaves room for speakers too). So it would seem the solution is more efficient use of screen space, as there’s always a trade off between zooming in to see more detail vs zooming out to see the big picture.


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[antic604]

My problem is I’m stuck on the vertical layout for mixers. I’ve tried to envision/design alternate UIs for a mixer (as a fun exercise) and struggle to see an alternative. Best I can come up with is a way to combine the horizontal sequencer/recorder with the mixer functions so it’s all on one screen, which (as with any solution) has advantages and disadvantages

As said above, this would solve this particular problem for me:



Yes, I know I can detach the windows and put them together in a similar fashion, but it looks very clumsily and inconsistent, with Rack's part including both the top menus & transport, whereas Mixer has none.

[antic604]

Given that REs all have 4k versions sitting in the vault, it'll clearly happen sooner or later, but I assume that the reason we haven't seen high-resolution graphics implemented yet is because on standard 1080p displays Reason still looks exactly as intended.

As a 1080p display user, Reason's interface is sized comparably to other software I use, and I have a hard time imagining myself wanting to zoom in to see less instead of out to see more.

Well, then try to use in on a high-DPI screen, like a small 4K monitor or a high-res laptop - the only way to have all the controls at proper size is to "zoom in", which results in a blurry picture.

Just compare the sharpness of the Windows bar with Reason's GUI on this capture from Surface Pro 4 (right-click, open in new tab):

[sdst]

Reason 5 was like that, then they messed up that

[antic604]

Reason 5 was like that, then they messed up that

Was it? AFAIK 5 didn't even had the SSL mixer, just the 6:2 and 14:4 ones, which were obviously in the rack.

[sdst]

Reason 5 was like that, then they messed up that

Was it? AFAIK 5 didn't even had the SSL mixer, just the 6:2 and 14:4 ones, which were obviously in the rack.

in Reason 5 you can put the Sequencer the Rack and tool windows on the screen,

and fit perfectly in an 22 HD screen , was very good to work

now most user wants the vertical division, I hope they do

[esselfortium]

Given that REs all have 4k versions sitting in the vault, it'll clearly happen sooner or later, but I assume that the reason we haven't seen high-resolution graphics implemented yet is because on standard 1080p displays Reason still looks exactly as intended.

As a 1080p display user, Reason's interface is sized comparably to other software I use, and I have a hard time imagining myself wanting to zoom in to see less instead of out to see more.

Well, then try to use in on a high-DPI screen, like a small 4K monitor or a high-res laptop - the only way to have all the controls at proper size is to "zoom in", which results in a blurry picture.

Just compare the sharpness of the Windows bar with Reason's GUI on this capture from Surface Pro 4 (right-click, open in new tab):

https://i.imgur.com/fhpaMt7.png

Yes, I get that, I've read the thread and all the other ones about this. My point is that while 4k displays will need to be dealt with at some point as they become more and more common, it hasn't been prioritized so far for pretty simple reasons: it's a lot of money and development time for a feature that will at the moment only affect a very small percentage of users.

[Goodbye]

I imagine that's what happens when they design new aeroplane dashboards. Someone just looks at it and says 'Jeez it's just a tool. Stick the same dashboard in that we used on the last model 10 years back.'

And nobody mentioned themes so pack your straw man back in the box.

Don't think that this was meant by Goodbye - new themes are only a welcomed side effect for scalable (vector?) UI which adapts to whatever display you use.

BTW: Ableton 10 does really nice (but it took them >5 years since 9). Freely scalable UI

Themes doesnt have any relation to scalable or vector graphics. Implementing themes in UIs uses lot of development resources, especially if implemented in an existing code. That is obviously the reason why it is not everywhere implemented. But hey, it looks fancy - that is what users want, right?

As i said, i would rather had seen functional improvements than fancy GUI stuff. And as we also had seen, some ppl doent like this colore, want more to adjust here and there. I found myself in the past to waste too much time to adjust the look&feel of a application instead of just using it. The overall benefit of customizing GUIs is something i never realy had seen.

Ofc we are talking about different things, than you build up a application from scratch, especially today where you can have frameworks and stuff, that already support all that fancy things out of the box.

Sometimes all those discussions about GUI makes me wonder what ppl really do with Reason? Looking at it? It is a god damn tool to work with. And i am pretty sure, as soon as PH made it more customizable, more themese, vector graphics, look like every other DAW, fancy little buttons and big menus all over the place which nobody understands or even knows, the same ppl would start crying about: It looks so bad, it is so difficult, the workflow is worse, the colors, the big scaled UI is always in my way, blablabla... Just good we have the internet and we can talk about it again and again and again...

[selig]

My problem is I’m stuck on the vertical layout for mixers. I’ve tried to envision/design alternate UIs for a mixer (as a fun exercise) and struggle to see an alternative. Best I can come up with is a way to combine the horizontal sequencer/recorder with the mixer functions so it’s all on one screen, which (as with any solution) has advantages and disadvantages

As said above, this would solve this particular problem for me:



Yes, I know I can detach the windows and put them together in a similar fashion, but it looks very clumsily and inconsistent, with Rack's part including both the top menus & transport, whereas Mixer has none.

I really like the way your mockup looks, I could definitely make use of that. It makes total sense now that I've seen it, and is a head scratcher why it's not already a part of Reason.

[Loque]

I imagine that's what happens when they design new aeroplane dashboards. Someone just looks at it and says 'Jeez it's just a tool. Stick the same dashboard in that we used on the last model 10 years back.'

And nobody mentioned themes so pack your straw man back in the box.

Themes doesnt have any relation to scalable or vector graphics. Implementing themes in UIs uses lot of development resources, especially if implemented in an existing code. That is obviously the reason why it is not everywhere implemented. But hey, it looks fancy - that is what users want, right?

As i said, i would rather had seen functional improvements than fancy GUI stuff. And as we also had seen, some ppl doent like this colore, want more to adjust here and there. I found myself in the past to waste too much time to adjust the look&feel of a application instead of just using it. The overall benefit of customizing GUIs is something i never realy had seen.

Ofc we are talking about different things, than you build up a application from scratch, especially today where you can have frameworks and stuff, that already support all that fancy things out of the box.

Sometimes all those discussions about GUI makes me wonder what ppl really do with Reason? Looking at it? It is a god damn tool to work with. And i am pretty sure, as soon as PH made it more customizable, more themese, vector graphics, look like every other DAW, fancy little buttons and big menus all over the place which nobody understands or even knows, the same ppl would start crying about: It looks so bad, it is so difficult, the workflow is worse, the colors, the big scaled UI is always in my way, blablabla... Just good we have the internet and we can talk about it again and again and again...

And some ppl want the "make a hit" feature in the DAW, just like a aeroplane can fligh without a pilot

[antic604]

I really like the way your mockup looks, I could definitely make use of that. It makes total sense now that I've seen it, and is a head scratcher why it's not already a part of Reason.

Isn't it? I mean it looks obvious this would work so much better for single-screen users than the "sandwich" GUI we have now...



...that doesn't provide an effective overview for any of the areas, unless it's on a 40'' 4K screen.

But I'm sure all devs @ Propellerhead use it on 2-3 1080p monitors and are not even aware of it



EDIT: BTW, above screen is taken from Propellerhead' website and it's at 4:3 ratio (or close to it) which almost none of current monitors or laptops have...

[Loque]

Reason 5 was like that, then they messed up that

If i want this, i dock out the windows, press win+left on the one window, win+right on the other.

[antic604]

If i want this, i dock out the windows, press win+left on the one window, win+right on the other.

Yeah, and it looks like shit with improperly aligned window borders, double top menus & transport bars, etc. Not to mention it's finicky to use such setup on a single-screen computer, like a laptop.

But then we already established Reason is just a tool and it doesn't matter to you how it looks

[Loque]

If i want this, i dock out the windows, press win+left on the one window, win+right on the other.

Yeah, and it looks like shit with improperly aligned window borders, double top menus & transport bars, etc. Not to mention it's finicky to use such setup on a single-screen computer, like a laptop.

But then we already established Reason is just a tool and it doesn't matter to you how it looks

Guess you tried it on your laptop...

Yes, it is a tool for me. For YOU its a picture on the wall, AS WE ALREADY __ALL__ noticed

[esselfortium]

More options for arranging Reason's panels and windows would be great. In addition to vertical-slice views for the mixer and rack, ReGroove and the F8 tools window really ought to be turned into toggleable main-window panels like the browser and everything else.

[Psuper]

Reason doesn't need any GUI "graphics" adjustments on 4k:
download/file.php?id=2371431

I spent years showing how cramped it was on smaller resolutions <1080p, and with 4k I have zero complaints as you can see from my layout (I'm old and can see everything perfectly).

Reason needs help with everything else "DAW". When I mention GUI in my signature, I speak purely from a workflow standpoint (graphics only applies for those with smaller resolutions).

[antic604]

Guess you tried it on your laptop...

Yes, I know - my needs shouldn't be catered for, because I'm not a serious Reason user until I have a "rig" and 2+ monitors, at least one of which is tilted 90 degrees... Yet, most of other DAWs work more than fine in either setup and actually re-think and adjust their workflow & GUI for all common use cases, including touch screens. But apparently it's too much to ask for of Propellerhead.

And yes, I like my tools pretty

[antic604]

Reason doesn't need any GUI "graphics" adjustments on 4k:
download/file.php?id=2371431

Yeah, this is nice but also shows exactly what I mean - the windows are not aligned properly, if you move one of them (eg. accidentally) others stay in place, you have double browsers, triple manus, if you click on the Rack its transport bar will appear and cover part of the sequencer, etc. and so on.

It's a stop-gap and not a sustainable, workable solution - at least for me it isn't.