Sub/Center cable routing question

[RobC]

There's this Sound Blaster X4 - which I might get (for TV, Gaming, 5.1 surround experiments). It has a Sub/Center out (3.5 mm jack).

Question is: is it enough to plug a stereo-jack-to-2-RCA-cable; where the one channel goes into my Edifier T5 sub's Left RCA-in; and the other into my D12 center speaker's Left RCA-in?

Unless the D12 would play only on the left side, and the T5 would have weaker signal. That would suck. I'll test this tomorrow.

In case it doesn't work the way I imagine, and both speakers want at least dual mono inputs, then how do I split a stereo jack to 4 mono RCAs, so that the signal doesn't get weaker? Should I just get a stereo jack to 2 mono jack (L & R) splitter? If I connect a stereo jack to 2 stereo RCA, to that, would it have normal power? Or would it be quieter?

[RobC]

Okay, problem. : S

I tried the (stereo) center speaker, and if there's only 1 RCA plugged in, then the sound is coming from only one side. Although it does have an AUX in 3.5 mm jack; the problem will still be there with the Sub speaker, since that only has a pair of RCA for input.

Currently, an option seems to be buying a male stereo 3.5 mm jack to 2 female mono left and right splitter cable. The stereo jack could be plugged into the SB X4 Sub/Center out. Then I can plug a stereo jack to L/R RCA splitter cable into the split, respective female Sub and Center jacks. Then plug the RCA to the respective speaker (sub woofer, and center).
However, that might still result sound coming from only one side.
Which means, I might need to buy a mono jack, to dual mono RCA splitter. Well, two actually. Eventhough I have a ton of stereo jack to stereo RCA pair cables.
Even so, I fear a mono jack to dual mono RCA would have a volume drop.

Somebody help, please?

[selig]

Where do you normally do your bass management? What advantage is there to using the soundblaster bass management?
If you do not have a full discrete 7.1 system to connect to, it would probably be better to just take stereo out into the sub and let the sub do the management/crossover duties.

Overall you’re not giving enough data to work with here, as we don’t know what you’re connecting to - we only know about the Soundblaster gaming system, which is what I assume this is for? If not, what is the application for adding the Soundblaster, and what are you connecting it to?

[RobC]

Where do you normally do your bass management? What advantage is there to using the soundblaster bass management?
If you do not have a full discrete 7.1 system to connect to, it would probably be better to just take stereo out into the sub and let the sub do the management/crossover duties.

Overall you’re not giving enough data to work with here, as we don’t know what you’re connecting to - we only know about the Soundblaster gaming system, which is what I assume this is for? If not, what is the application for adding the Soundblaster, and what are you connecting it to?

Okay, so the Sound Blaster X4 is pretty much the only DAC I found, that can run without a computer, and work as a surround receiver. Standalone, without unnecessary built-in amplifier, whatsoever. It's not from some noname company, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

I would connect my TV via optical-toslink to it. This is something I looked for over a year now, btw.
The other use is through the computer. Indeed for the occasional gaming; as well as to experiment with multi-channel audio in Reason. My other DACs (Topping, Focusrite) will be useful at the same time, because Asio4All is enough for me. There's only 1ms difference that Focusrite could make - which I care less for, than being able to use all of my devices at once.

I do have enough speakers for a 5.1 system at least.

Front speakers: Edifier R2850DB
Rear speakers: Edifier R1000T4
Center: Edifier D12
Sub: Edifier T5

All of them are active speakers.
The front and rear speakers are a no-brainer to connect.

The D12 is stereo.
The T5 sub takes a stereo signal.

The SoundBlaster X4 has 3.5mm jack sockets for an up to 7.1 system. Though this is a small room, so no need.

All in all, it would be multi-purpose.

I know that the Sub/Center socket is just a "stereo" output, where Left can be LFE audio, while Right can be the Center audio.
After doing a bit of reading, all I found was, that I need a stereo to mono left and mono right adapter. Then those need two mono to stereo adapters. Because my T5 sub, and D12 center both need stereo inputs (as I explained in my earlier comment). Those would use stereo jack to stereo (L & R) RCA pair cables
There doesn't seem to be any other solution. And even this way, I wonder if there would be a drop in volume. After all, a 2 channel jack socket would be split up to 2-2 "stereo" (essentially dual mono) RCA cables. The electricity does get split up, after all.

Yes, I know that a full, dedicated surround system is easier to set up. However, a decent one, with proper wood speakers costs an arm and a leg.
By getting the components step by step, I could enjoy using them, while I got the rest of the speakers. Edifier speakers look great and are fun to listen to, and are fairly priced.
For the price of my current speakers, I can only buy a shitty plastic "atmos" system, that heavily relies on a cheapo-quality sounbar.

Btw, I haven't gotten the Sound Blaster X4 yet, as I want to get it together with the necessary cables and adapters.

[jam-s]

Passive splitters usually just connect both outputs to the input. In unbalanced consumer systems with RCA its the voltage that's usually then coupled to HighZ inputs at the active speaker. This way of spliting the signal should not really affect the levels. And even if it did you could simply add a little gain to the affected center or sub channel.

[RobC]

Passive splitters usually just connect both outputs to the input. In unbalanced consumer systems with RCA its the voltage that's usually then coupled to HighZ inputs at the active speaker. This way of spliting the signal should not really affect the levels. And even if it did you could simply add a little gain to the affected center or sub channel.

Thanks a lot for this info!

I found 1x RCA to 2x RCA splitters. They even describe it as subwoofer cable, in case of dual (stereo) inputs, as is the case with the T5. Same situation with the D12 center speaker.

And I saw there are stereo jack to 2 x RCA (stereo) adapters.

So if everything is correct, I just need the adapter, the two splitters, and I already have a lot of male, stereo RCA cables, so the last one is covered.
If I need extension, I can just plug a jack extender between the sound blaster, and the adapter.

[selig]

My question has to do with bass management. The way it’s normally done is in the sub, so the sub filters the signal being fed to the main speakers as well as filtering out the higher frequencies from going to the sub. It’s basically a crossover just like between the tweeter and woofer of any two way system, but in this case it’s the crossover between the sub and the woofers.

If you use the dedicated Sub out as you propose, you’ll need bass management in the host system to do the crossover to ensure zero overlap (the enemy of a sub system IMO). Without bass management you’ll only have half the system you need, and I assume the Sound Blaster has all of the necessary crossovers built in? In that case make sure the sub crossover is set as high as possible to avoid double filtering.

Assuming the built in bass management is sufficient and you go with the adaptor cables you mention, other questions remain: how does it present itself to Reason as a USB audio interface, and how do you access the surround channels from Reasons outputs. Of course, do you have to do your own bass management in software (Reason) or is the DSP in Sound Blaster sophisticated enough to do it for you (crossovers, levels, etc).

I couldn’t find any answers from the documentation, which is common when repurposing gear from consumer to pro audio, so you may be on your own there (and it may be less than ideal for anything but movies and gaming).

[RobC]

My question has to do with bass management. The way it’s normally done is in the sub, so the sub filters the signal being fed to the main speakers as well as filtering out the higher frequencies from going to the sub. It’s basically a crossover just like between the tweeter and woofer of any two way system, but in this case it’s the crossover between the sub and the woofers.

If you use the dedicated Sub out as you propose, you’ll need bass management in the host system to do the crossover to ensure zero overlap (the enemy of a sub system IMO). Without bass management you’ll only have half the system you need, and I assume the Sound Blaster has all of the necessary crossovers built in? In that case make sure the sub crossover is set as high as possible to avoid double filtering.

Assuming the built in bass management is sufficient and you go with the adaptor cables you mention, other questions remain: how does it present itself to Reason as a USB audio interface, and how do you access the surround channels from Reasons outputs. Of course, do you have to do your own bass management in software (Reason) or is the DSP in Sound Blaster sophisticated enough to do it for you (crossovers, levels, etc).

I couldn’t find any answers from the documentation, which is common when repurposing gear from consumer to pro audio, so you may be on your own there (and it may be less than ideal for anything but movies and gaming).

Sorry for the delay! This peasant was busy preparing all kinds of plants, and the ground for them. Sick of trashy supermarket vegetables. And of course, I had to build protection (fence) for two empty flowerbeds I made, because the cats used it as a giant toilet. Awful monsters.

Now, the T5 only has an LPF, and stereo passthrough. I complained about that in the past. The woofer does the job sound-wise, but they could have added a crossover. To that, the solution was the R2850DB, which has a Sub Out. Indeed, the crossover happened in the stereo speakers, where the highs above ~100 Hz remained, and the lows were sent out to the sub. Then, on the T5, the LPF had to be turned as high as possible, to avoid that double-filtering.

Soundblasters usually HPF the main 5 (or 7) speaker outputs, and LPF the sub out. The crossover frequency can be set, too. It usually happens inside the device's DSP, although I think it can even be bypassed. (We used Soundblasters since the 90s for generic listening.)
Personally, I would prefer if the Soundblaster would manage the bass, because I don't want to buy an A/B switch, and I'm not satisfied with that the Edifier sub out has a fixed crossover.
I also don't want to drain my Topping and Focusrite DACs' life for TV use and gaming, not to mention what a mess it would be to use different devices for a 5.1 system (hell, even my old USB mic would have been in use for it, as the Sub/Center). Oh, and that solution would have needed a running computer, even for just TV and movies.

As for Reason, with ASIO4ALL, in the past, it could even see an old Soundblaster Audigy 4's every input and output. It's pretty easy and straight forward.
Most likely, I can choose to either leave the crossover to the Soundblaster X4 to manage; or I can do it myself in Reason.

All in all, I would say, it takes some work and frustration, but both Edifier and Creative (Soundblaster) products can be pretty useful.
I think, they will do the trick for experiments.

A good thing about Edifier speakers is, that they have secondary inputs. So, if I want premium quality sound sent to the R2850DB front/stereo speakers, then I can just hook the Topping DAC's output to it.
Same with the D12 center speaker, I can send the Focusrite's output to its aux input, for those "mono" tests.

One more thing, while I'd set up an 80 Hz crossover, I hope that in general, the Sub channel is used for low frequency effects (LFE), in finished movies, music, and games. I mean, that's what it is for. As such, when I design sounds, I will keep in mind to keep certain rumble elements separate and clean, as long as they are below 80 Hz.

To clarify, when enabled, any Soundblaster's additional surround channels were available next to the main two stereo channels in the Reason Rack.

[bitley]

"Normal" speakers can not often handle raw audio especially like an uncompressed piano, they are better suited for home entertinment imho. For music production I recommend studio monitors from Adam, Genelec, Yamaha, KRK etc. I certainly also recommend music production audio interfaces like from RME, Motu etc.

[pushedbutton]

I would caution against using a device that doesn't have asio drivers.
If you're determined to put sound into all 7.1 of your ears then you'd need an audio interface with 8 outputs. the Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 is one such device.
I have made a surround sound tune by bouncing out the audio channels separately then using video editing software that supports surround sound to compile it. That played back just find on my 5.1 gaming speakers but I wouldn't trust those speakers during the creative process.

[RobC]

"Normal" speakers can not often handle raw audio especially like an uncompressed piano, they are better suited for home entertinment imho. For music production I recommend studio monitors from Adam, Genelec, Yamaha, KRK etc. I certainly also recommend music production audio interfaces like from RME, Motu etc.

If you read the thread, there's info, that I already have professional stereo gear.

But as for surround, I'm testing the waters, before making huge investments.

[RobC]

I would caution against using a device that doesn't have asio drivers.
If you're determined to put sound into all 7.1 of your ears then you'd need an audio interface with 8 outputs. the Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 is one such device.
I have made a surround sound tune by bouncing out the audio channels separately then using video editing software that supports surround sound to compile it. That played back just find on my 5.1 gaming speakers but I wouldn't trust those speakers during the creative process.

Topping and Focusrite have ASIO drivers. But even Soundblasters have ASIO drivers. However, if I want to use everything at once, ASIO4ALL is the solution.

I know we have 2 ears, but I have a bit of a science experiment to test on a simple surround system. But that will be another topic.

Goldwave handles surround.

[bitley]

Well Reason isn't so readily made for surround work, Logic has the upper hand in that division I believe.

[RobC]

Well Reason isn't so readily made for surround work, Logic has the upper hand in that division I believe.

It doesn't seem to be too difficult to manage it; although creating an accurate panning between Left, Center, and Right might be challenging. Unless there's already a Combinator 2 patch for it(?)

[bitley]

Interesting, would be fun to try it out, I actually have an audio interface with many outputs connected here right now. But how to do the audio export? My brain is clueless right now lol. We need a 8 channel setup right, as they often say 7+1 for movie surround jobs, please educate me before I have another session with my slightly hallucinating technopsychiatrist Chat GPT We could actually upload the full reason manual to Google Notebook LM (https://notebooklm.google/) and go from there. It's a fantastic AI that hallucinates less as it goes from your uploaded documents and generates answers from that.

[RobC]

Interesting, would be fun to try it out, I actually have an audio interface with many outputs connected here right now. But how to do the audio export? My brain is clueless right now lol. We need a 8 channel setup right, as they often say 7+1 for movie surround jobs, please educate me before I have another session with my slightly hallucinating technopsychiatrist Chat GPT We could actually upload the full reason manual to Google Notebook LM (https://notebooklm.google/) and go from there. It's a fantastic AI that hallucinates less as it goes from your uploaded documents and generates answers from that.

I wouldn't trust AI, cause it's like an overly confident person, that has no fear of consequences that come with spreading misinformation.

I would create group channels in the main mixer for whatever setup we go for; and then directly connect those to the main outputs. That way we can test it live on multiple speakers; and we can simply bounce/export those mix channels. 7.1.4 is getting pretty common. Though, most home systems tops go for 5.1.2. Luckily, I will be able to re-route the 7.1 outputs in Reason, to create a 5.1.2 system later. If I add my other DACs, then I can do 7.1.4. I'm not sure I want 6 additional Edifiers though. : ) And buying 12 Adams? 'I guess both of my kidneys are working, so I could sell one on E-bay.'
I will most likely get an 8k mini led TV, first, that is 85" big. But at that size, a center speaker becomes a floor speaker.

Anyways, once you bounce the Front, Rear, Sub/Center, Side, etc. mix channels, you just merge them in another software. Again, Goldwave can do it. With batch processing, one just runs a command file in case of Windows, and it can create a multi channel audio file.

I'm more worried about the Front Left, Center, Front Right panning. If it's in the middle, without a pan-law, then it's 33% 33% 33%. If all to the left, then 100% 0% 0%. The question is, what the math formula is behind it, to smoothly pan between 3 speakers? Maybe Thor can help, cause in the programming section, it has the "scale" value or whatever.

One thing is for sure, surround positioning will definitely need combinators (or a VST).

I think, it would be about time for RS to start supporting multi-channel productions. They could create a surround device, where this routing and panning hassle is already solved. But also the possibility of exporting at least multi-channel audio more easily.
Yes, we have only 2 ears, but the problem of most people only having 2 speakers of any kind, is getting solved with virtualization, and head-tracking. This kind of tech could be simplified with gyroscopes, already built into phones.

[bitley]

RSS is interesting too and it can actually fool me sometimes.

Surround for music is of limited to no use for me but hearing sounds go from point to point in movies is awesome.

Fun to experiment with surely.

[RobC]

RSS is interesting too and it can actually fool me sometimes.

Surround for music is of limited to no use for me but hearing sounds go from point to point in movies is awesome.

Fun to experiment with surely.

To be honest, I already have everything planned out for surround music.
While I mostly prefer to work binaurally, and research that so called holographic sound - taking that from IEMs to 5.1 will add an extra effect, cause there, our outer ears and body's natural filters make an actual difference (meanwhile only 2 stereo speakers make it worse).
Even if I would invest into an expensive system later, I still wouldn't do any engineering on 5.1 speakers, cause I would most likely naturally EQ elements that rely on the rear speakers, thus "correcting" our bodies' natural filtering, which would ruin the effect and the surround feel. Not to mention every body and ears being different from person to person.

That said, my effect processing doesn't rely on filters. It will be something different and new.

It took me years to figure out how I could make use of a 3D sound setting. It's frustrating, but not useless.

By experimenting, I didn't mean just playing around. I take it very seriously.

[bitley]

Love to hear it!