Master EQing fail... (UPDATE: example song + mastering walkthrough)

[selig]

Just read this, easy to check so I did:

"The maximizer as gain boost

I haven't thought of the compressor's boost; though they say, no matter how little, or even zero work the compressor is doing, it constantly changes the sound. I didn't do a null test. So I was only 100% sure and safe with the Maximizer and the limiter button off."

And, no. There is no change to the signal as long as it's below the threshold or the ratio is 1:1
Both devices provide exactly the same cut/boost amounts, so it would be down to CPU hit (not sure there's a dif there either) or down to good old personal preference!

[selig]

I passed this on to Benedict who made it into one of his mix / master walk through videos. You can probably learn a lot from what he explains, I certainly have from this series!

Did anyone else notice the final mastered version peaks at -4 dBFS (or did I miss something obvious)?
I wonder why there is 4 dB unused headroom in the master, I'm going to have to say it's some sort of an oversight because I cannot believe it would be intentional…or maybe because brick wall mode is not engaged it's intentional?
@37:40 it's clear on the big meter.
Only other thing I could wonder is if the master fader is set to around -4 dB on the song file and this wasn't noticed? This would cause that exact scenario where the output of the mastering chain DOES reach close to 0 dBFS but the Big Meter (the final meter in Reason) only peaks at -4 dBFS.

[RobC]

Just read this, easy to check so I did:

"The maximizer as gain boost

I haven't thought of the compressor's boost; though they say, no matter how little, or even zero work the compressor is doing, it constantly changes the sound. I didn't do a null test. So I was only 100% sure and safe with the Maximizer and the limiter button off."

And, no. There is no change to the signal as long as it's below the threshold or the ratio is 1:1
Both devices provide exactly the same cut/boost amounts, so it would be down to CPU hit (not sure there's a dif there either) or down to good old personal preference!

Thanks for testing it! I should have thought of using the compressor back then; although the maximizer's 12 dB boost was usually enough. However, if the Maximizer's Limiter button is off, then the output gain can't be used.

Nowadays, I just used that kHs Gain RE.

[Jagwah]

Did anyone else notice...

Still nothing?
You guys don't come on here, huh? : P

I am always on here though sometimes I take breaks for various reasons.

Benedict is not really on here at all, I'm glad you took his video seriously and hope it was useful, and if you reply on his youtube or this video specifically you will find he is very responsive!

[RobC]

I am always on here though sometimes I take breaks for various reasons.

Benedict is not really on here at all, I'm glad you took his video seriously and hope it was useful, and if you reply on his youtube or this video specifically you will find he is very responsive!

Too bad, cause he used to be active on here. Things seem to have settled down here, and while the forum is not as active as it used to be (in my experience), it's become way friendlier. : )

But alright, I gotta make a youtube thing for real now, no more excuses. ~ Although I do have a basically empty facebook, too that I only made for Reason related groups, though it just inactively exists. x D

[Jagwah]

Too bad, cause he used to be active on here. Things seem to have settled down here, and while the forum is not as active as it used to be (in my experience), it's become way friendlier. : )

But alright, I gotta make a youtube thing for real now, no more excuses. ~ Although I do have a basically empty facebook, too that I only made for Reason related groups, though it just inactively exists. x D

Yeah good to have a Youtube account although it is Google so there's that annoyance, but then you can communicate with people when you want to etc.

[RobC]

Benedict is back, so now we can look back a little.

One thing I never understood was that: at the end of the day, were the hats simply mixed too loud?

[Benedict]

Benedict is back, so now we can look back a little.

One thing I never understood was that: at the end of the day, were the hats simply mixed too loud?

Hmmm, that is a value judgment type Q so if wanted more/less hats then do so. I think I felt them ok at the time - Trappy stylings and all that.

As for the thing about final level numbers, yes they could be higher. Do they need to be? If obsessed with having higher numbers being better then sure. However, I work by feel and a lot of that is reflected more in the VU which is comfortably at 0DbVU which is generally where I think/feel music is the nicest. I know ppl who did Spotifry want it to be LOUDER but then all sense of dynamic is lost and I feel like the music is oppressing me more than being enjoyable. Nothing wrong with someone else mastering to -0.000001 LUFS if that is their bag, baby.

[RobC]

Benedict is back, so now we can look back a little.

One thing I never understood was that: at the end of the day, were the hats simply mixed too loud?

Hmmm, that is a value judgment type Q so if wanted more/less hats then do so. I think I felt them ok at the time - Trappy stylings and all that.

As for the thing about final level numbers, yes they could be higher. Do they need to be? If obsessed with having higher numbers being better then sure. However, I work by feel and a lot of that is reflected more in the VU which is comfortably at 0DbVU which is generally where I think/feel music is the nicest. I know ppl who did Spotifry want it to be LOUDER but then all sense of dynamic is lost and I feel like the music is oppressing me more than being enjoyable. Nothing wrong with someone else mastering to -0.000001 LUFS if that is their bag, baby.

Actually, I like experimenting with all kinds of drum rolls. Trap didn't really invent anything, it's an even lazier genre than HipHop was/is. x D

I think, Dan Worrall managed +2 LU in a joke video.
I don't do loudness war stuff since nearly a decade now.

[RobC]

Benedict is back, so now we can look back a little.

One thing I never understood was that: at the end of the day, were the hats simply mixed too loud?

Hmmm, that is a value judgment type Q so if wanted more/less hats then do so. I think I felt them ok at the time - Trappy stylings and all that.

As for the thing about final level numbers, yes they could be higher. Do they need to be? If obsessed with having higher numbers being better then sure. However, I work by feel and a lot of that is reflected more in the VU which is comfortably at 0DbVU which is generally where I think/feel music is the nicest. I know ppl who did Spotifry want it to be LOUDER but then all sense of dynamic is lost and I feel like the music is oppressing me more than being enjoyable. Nothing wrong with someone else mastering to -0.000001 LUFS if that is their bag, baby.

I looked into your other videos, like the headphone vs. speaker one, and the one on speaker types, like studio and hifi.

Now, these are topics that can be argued, or agreed, or agree-to-disagree, yada-yada. And honestly? For youtube especially, I support free speech, and people can shit-talk each-other - tops they can make up, and correct each-other. Drama is sadly the key to audience.
But that's just people behaving as adults, having opinions and sharing them. I don't mind healthy challenging and debates - as long as it's not just the psycho-troll bullshit. Those are useless.

The only thing I ever hate is, when somebody comes to you, tells you without explanation - let alone proof - that what you say is nonsense, and then leaves. And what's worse, when they start the childish cancelling, banning, and girly silent treatment. And that seems to be exactly what happened on your speaker vs headphone video.
And I am total an IEM type of guy - not that I don't get where you come from ~ as far as I got in the video, your points about speakers did make me think. Though, TBH, even I started buying speakers. But all this is another topic.
Point is, what those people did, is the kind of crap I definitely don't support.

I don't get why people can't accept that there might be people that don't agree with them, or have a different opinion. People should talk, make their points, and have free speech. Debates don't have to be endless. 1-2 responses are enough, and if they don't agree, then they can leave it at that. People's views and opinions can change. They may be rude, maybe they have a bad day, etc. but that's no reason to demonize anyone.

Why I post this here? I dunno. x D It's the 'if we're already here and talk about your videos' kind of thing.

But yeah, sorry to hear you had to deal with such manchildren.

[Benedict]

Thanks Mr C

It is sad. I think way past time that we do talk about the trolls in the room who take over everything by making everyone bow to their ill manners.

I do wish those kinds of videos Speakers vs Headphones, Studio Monitors vs Hi-Fi Spears etc got better engagement (and adult discussion AFTER the whole vid is watched) but this is the way of the world: a new Wabez plug that makes music worse will get all the press.

[RobC]

Thanks Mr C

It is sad. I think way past time that we do talk about the trolls in the room who take over everything by making everyone bow to their ill manners.

I do wish those kinds of videos Speakers vs Headphones, Studio Monitors vs Hi-Fi Spears etc got better engagement (and adult discussion AFTER the whole vid is watched) but this is the way of the world: a new Wabez plug that makes music worse will get all the press.

The good thing is, that in general, cancel-culture-enthusiasts only isolate themselves to a group of fools. The trick is not to let them blind anyone, and instead to focus on finding the right groups of people; the majority, instead of the vocal minority.

I do have marketing ideas, but how youtube works, is unpredictable.

Not all Hi-Fi is bad though. : ) I was lucky with Edifier R2850db, which I bought for its looks, mainly. x D Honestly, they market it as Hi-Fi, as well as studio use, prosumer, etc. I bought it for entertainment use, but I will one day challenge them for a whole music production. Though their main purpose will be the occasional Doom, Diablo, Red Alert, etc. That kind of Gen-Y/Echo-Boomer/Millenial classical gaming.
Oh right, the point: they sound good, I enjoy them for consumption.

[Benedict]

I have never said Hi-Fi is bad. Quality is quality no matter the branding. I have had microsystems (Yamaha & JVC with sake-soaked wood cones no less!) I would use before certain "studio" names.

Edifer I am not so sure about, but they are low-end gamesumer. I would file under "use what you got" for now. To be fair I know of Edifer but have never come near a set to see let alone hear. They can look a bit flash in the adverts but supporting blurb rather gives them away as better brands would not say those things.

[RobC]

I have never said Hi-Fi is bad. Quality is quality no matter the branding. I have had microsystems (Yamaha & JVC with sake-soaked wood cones no less!) I would use before certain "studio" names.

Edifer I am not so sure about, but they are low-end gamesumer. I would file under "use what you got" for now. To be fair I know of Edifer but have never come near a set to see let alone hear. They can look a bit flash in the adverts but supporting blurb rather gives them away as better brands would not say those things.

I was wrong. It was the reviewers and shops that used random marketing words. Edifier is innocent! : )

Again, for listening, the models I have at least, are good.
Now, for professional use, I yet have to put them to test.
What salesmen and audiophiles say about Edifier - well, who cares? : D
I yet have to find a professional that bothered to actually test them (for creating music), so I guess I will have to be the first one.

[selig]

Benedict is back, so now we can look back a little.

One thing I never understood was that: at the end of the day, were the hats simply mixed too loud?

Hmmm, that is a value judgment type Q so if wanted more/less hats then do so. I think I felt them ok at the time - Trappy stylings and all that.

As for the thing about final level numbers, yes they could be higher. Do they need to be? If obsessed with having higher numbers being better then sure. However, I work by feel and a lot of that is reflected more in the VU which is comfortably at 0DbVU which is generally where I think/feel music is the nicest. I know ppl who did Spotifry want it to be LOUDER but then all sense of dynamic is lost and I feel like the music is oppressing me more than being enjoyable. Nothing wrong with someone else mastering to -0.000001 LUFS if that is their bag, baby.

If you're referring to my observation, you're talking bout something different than what I was commenting about. My comment is not about loudness or dynamics or higher being better or anything of that sort at all, and certainly not about LUFS!

I had simply wondered if the 4dB or so of headroom on the master was for a specific reason or an oversight, or was it some intentional process for a specific outcome (or some new trend in mastering?).
No biggie either way, I was just curious because, well because I'm naturally curious, that's all.

[RobC]

Hmmm, that is a value judgment type Q so if wanted more/less hats then do so. I think I felt them ok at the time - Trappy stylings and all that.

As for the thing about final level numbers, yes they could be higher. Do they need to be? If obsessed with having higher numbers being better then sure. However, I work by feel and a lot of that is reflected more in the VU which is comfortably at 0DbVU which is generally where I think/feel music is the nicest. I know ppl who did Spotifry want it to be LOUDER but then all sense of dynamic is lost and I feel like the music is oppressing me more than being enjoyable. Nothing wrong with someone else mastering to -0.000001 LUFS if that is their bag, baby.

If you're referring to my observation, you're talking bout something different than what I was commenting about. My comment is not about loudness or dynamics or higher being better or anything of that sort at all, and certainly not about LUFS!

I had simply wondered if the 4dB or so of headroom on the master was for a specific reason or an oversight, or was it some intentional process for a specific outcome (or some new trend in mastering?).
No biggie either way, I was just curious because, well because I'm naturally curious, that's all.

I don't think there was any negativity. We talk about loudness war and stuff in general.

What's rather embarrassing is that nobody seemed to care about the song itself, yet secretly I'm usually convinced what hits I write. : D

[Benedict]

What's rather embarrassing is that nobody seemed to care about the song itself, yet secretly I'm usually convinced what hits I write. : D

I didn't talk about the piece as such as while it was central to the subject, it wasn't the subject itself. It wasn't for me to judge as such.

If I thought it were worthless rubbish I would not have done the program - turd polishing and all that.
I rather liked some things about it. There is a often a nice virtual analog liquid sound. Musically not really my cup of meat but I definitely didn't ever grow tired of the piece itself.

[RobC]

What's rather embarrassing is that nobody seemed to care about the song itself, yet secretly I'm usually convinced what hits I write. : D

I didn't talk about the piece as such as while it was central to the subject, it wasn't the subject itself. It wasn't for me to judge as such.

If I thought it were worthless rubbish I would not have done the program - turd polishing and all that.
I rather liked some things about it. There is a often a nice virtual analog liquid sound. Musically not really my cup of meat but I definitely didn't ever grow tired of the piece itself.

That's all perfectly fine, and definitely the right way to handle a song from a neutral point of view in case of mastering. However, it doesn't really seem to appeal to others either.
See, I started feeling ready to get down to business with music, but I see now what's happening with AI. This would be my 20th year of experience in music production, and well... getting slapped by the industry with an "it's too late now" - cause AI is free, if they develop it themselves, so they will spam that everywhere, and musicians will be obsolete and "not worth it", and neither have that 1% chance to go viral as indie artists. Let alone engineers.
Let me put it this way: it hurts less to see my dreams getting crushed, when I wouldn't have an audience anyway. : ]

All in all, it was an interesting journey, with 19 years of mild regret. I'd definitely tell my past self, not to waste time and money, but that's how life goes. No save/load game, only a 'play carefully, cause there's only 1 chance and only so much time...'

[selig]

What's rather embarrassing is that nobody seemed to care about the song itself, yet secretly I'm usually convinced what hits I write. : D

Speaking only for myself, I never heard much of the song on that video, for example I don't think it was ever played in full IIRC.
There are probably better ways to get feedback on a song, if that's what you're looking for.
Did you ever post it here (in the music forum)?

[Benedict]

True, I didn't ever play the piece/song in full on the video as it was in the A-Bs and how each part/level was achieved and the reasons why (incl the final levels)

As for deciding to be full-time in music as a hopeful outcome right now: I think you are right that there is all but zero demand seeing a) every eedjit with Pro Froot is being a creator and b) all that AI shite is covering the rest. All my work just stopped cold a year or so ago as AI became the catchword. I don't think there is a viable audience right now anywhere near the surface of things. Do what you do, put it on Bandcamp (not Spotifry) and see if you can find a tribe.

[moneykube]

Do what you do, put it on Bandcamp (not Spotifry) and see if you can find a tribe.

Is Bandcamp a good place to sell songs? I was curious about that. Have you made any money there?
I like your work.

[RobC]

What's rather embarrassing is that nobody seemed to care about the song itself, yet secretly I'm usually convinced what hits I write. : D

Speaking only for myself, I never heard much of the song on that video, for example I don't think it was ever played in full IIRC.
There are probably better ways to get feedback on a song, if that's what you're looking for.
Did you ever post it here (in the music forum)?

Actually, back on youtube (on a past account, that I deleted), this song had a small 400 views in 2015, with an average view time at ~75%. So, for what it was, it did pretty well.

I rather looked for an excuse to quit because of AI, when I haven't even started, or tried yet.

Today, I'd say this song is 25% finished.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Speaking only for myself, I never heard much of the song on that video, for example I don't think it was ever played in full IIRC.
There are probably better ways to get feedback on a song, if that's what you're looking for.
Did you ever post it here (in the music forum)?

Actually, back on youtube (on a past account, that I deleted), this song had a small 400 views in 2015, with an average view time at ~75%. So, for what it was, it did pretty well.

I rather looked for an excuse to quit because of AI, when I haven't even started, or tried yet.

Today, I'd say this song is 25% finished.

Finish it! Start! Ai is a silly excuse!

[RobC]

True, I didn't ever play the piece/song in full on the video as it was in the A-Bs and how each part/level was achieved and the reasons why (incl the final levels)

As for deciding to be full-time in music as a hopeful outcome right now: I think you are right that there is all but zero demand seeing a) every eedjit with Pro Froot is being a creator and b) all that AI shite is covering the rest. All my work just stopped cold a year or so ago as AI became the catchword. I don't think there is a viable audience right now anywhere near the surface of things. Do what you do, put it on Bandcamp (not Spotifry) and see if you can find a tribe.

I guess the only way is not to give up.

At least music is easy to access. It's not like a perfume, or an aroma. Only the riches can afford a jasmine perfume that isn't partly made of horse piss; or true vanilla, that has nothing to do with a beaver's "natural aroma" (literally harvested from beavers' assholes...).
My point is that people likely will still look for real music to consume than AI. People still hate "imitation".

[RobC]

Actually, back on youtube (on a past account, that I deleted), this song had a small 400 views in 2015, with an average view time at ~75%. So, for what it was, it did pretty well.

I rather looked for an excuse to quit because of AI, when I haven't even started, or tried yet.

Today, I'd say this song is 25% finished.

Finish it! Start! Ai is a silly excuse!

AI will still flood the sea, although with dead fish, floating on top.
Not like the charts weren't full of crap as is.

Gotta take it seriously.