Audio nerds: Clipping? Distortion? Loud mixes?

[PhillipOrdonez]

What do we think about all this stuff he said? Seems to be pretty much in line with Worral’s take on loudness when it comes to dance music:

Personally I don’t really use clipping in my mixing, except for a couple of times using the soft one in the m class maximiser on the odd element but that only lasted about a month till I forgot about clipping again and kept on mixing for loudness (not crazy loudness mind you, competitive) without clippers

Ps: I also don’t limit my music hard, I seldom get the odd 1dB of gain reduction on the limiter either

[Popey]

Interesting what he said about damage to speakers. I have used clipping in the past but tend not to now (but I do use a fair bit of distortion/saturation). Back in the day you needed the gain pot as a dj as vinyl volumes differed greatly, have heard that slammed pots is more prevalent now (from those I know that still work).

As for mastering I go for best sound over best volume . It still needs to sound comparable for the genre but thats achieved in the mix from my experience.

[RobC]

Not so long ago, I made such post, that we sadly have to be somewhat loud (think -12 LU for YT, IIRC), due to modern standards. Of course, some still go over that, because loudness war reasons.

I also got Redmi Buds 4 Active for cycling. They are greater things than I thought, however, to me, there seems to be a fixed volume with wireless bluetooth earbuds. It seems like they are made for loud mixes (or maybe my phone does some max volume limiting, or youtube's -12 LU limitation kicks in). Whatever reaches the -12 LU standard, will be just about loud enough. If it's below that, it might be insufficient for outdoors.

I need to clarify, that I have no clue about the exact reason, it may have nothing to do with Xiaomi's earbuds, nor with Samsung phone, maybe not even Youtube. But if it does, then I have to say, I don't necessarily am happy about if modern devices will adapt to the -12 LU standard, as if people wouldn't listen to something more dynamic.

Personally, I have 3 paths with distortion:

1. Full dynamics: when designing, mixing, or mastering, I would never process dynamics to gain loudness

2. Transparently processed dynamics: I would still avoid compression for loudness, and would rather do some sort of multi-band wave shaping, or filtering - thus removing anything inaudible; maybe distorting the sound in a way where either you can't tell the difference or subjectively improved the sound (compared to the original), yet gained headroom

3. Dirty-dynamic: for example single or multi-band, downwards clipping, where I distort so long that I start hearing that the sound gets less impactful and starts audibly becoming quiet, tolerating some damage to the dynamics; OR until it gets too dirty for my tastes.

In the end, personally, I might do 3 versions, and let the audience choose.

[selig]

I've slowly learned to incorporate clipping into my mixes. I now use it in places I might have tried heavy limiting/saturation in the past, which is to get all crest factors relatively aligned in the mix.
They keys I've learned are to only use it on individual tracks, mainly on drums/percussive tracks and rarely on pitched tracks unless there is a strong transient such as on pizzicato strings. And I use it sparingly when I use it at all.
For me it's use is not about loud mixes but more about cohesive mixes. But damn, it is super easy to get loud clean mixes if you really pay attention, easily well beyond what I would normally get and to the point I'm dialing back the limiter for the first time in a long time. Also credit due to LUNA and it's architecture with regards to using tape and summing effectively, further adding to perceived loudness in many cases.

On some recent rock mixes I've only needed 1-2dB limiting at the most in mastering, which I like because it is more in line with my "mix like there's no mastering" philosophy.

[RobC]

On some recent rock mixes I've only needed 1-2dB limiting at the most in mastering, which I like because it is more in line with my "mix like there's no mastering" philosophy.

My philosophy regarding mastering is "Let's see what cool shit we can bring out of our mix!" From a sound designer point of view, there are crazy possibilities.

Also, have you considered to expand peaks and then clip? Sometimes, cool things can happen! (By expanding, I not only mean the obvious expander, but also amp decaying, volume automation, or editing an audio clip's transient manually - even if it's just a 1 shot sample, for simplicity). I guess we can call it manual transient shaping. ~ I should have added this to my initial comment.

[selig]

On some recent rock mixes I've only needed 1-2dB limiting at the most in mastering, which I like because it is more in line with my "mix like there's no mastering" philosophy.

My philosophy regarding mastering is "Let's see what cool shit we can bring out of our mix!" From a sound designer point of view, there are crazy possibilities.

Also, have you considered to expand peaks and then clip? Sometimes, cool things can happen! (By expanding, I not only mean the obvious expander, but also amp decaying, volume automation, or editing an audio clip's transient manually - even if it's just a 1 shot sample, for simplicity). I guess we can call it manual transient shaping. ~ I should have added this to my initial comment.

RMS compression followed by clipping is a common approach. You can also substitute any transient exaggerating device followed by a clipper - it’s subtle and seems like you’re undoing the added transient with the clipper, but it gives different results than either one alone (mostly useful to exaggerate the attack on weaker sounds/transients IMO).

[RobC]

My philosophy regarding mastering is "Let's see what cool shit we can bring out of our mix!" From a sound designer point of view, there are crazy possibilities.

Also, have you considered to expand peaks and then clip? Sometimes, cool things can happen! (By expanding, I not only mean the obvious expander, but also amp decaying, volume automation, or editing an audio clip's transient manually - even if it's just a 1 shot sample, for simplicity). I guess we can call it manual transient shaping. ~ I should have added this to my initial comment.

RMS compression followed by clipping is a common approach. You can also substitute any transient exaggerating device followed by a clipper - it’s subtle and seems like you’re undoing the added transient with the clipper, but it gives different results than either one alone (mostly useful to exaggerate the attack on weaker sounds/transients IMO).

Odd, because hobbysts and the occasional professional ~ well, almost called me stupid for doing such processing. But that's reassuring to hear!

I guess I could also load the sound into the Maths VST, and set a threshold, and then a clipping ratio. For example, what's above 75% volume, gets hard-clipped to 100%.

This inspired another thought. I could create a hard-gate, OR "clip" from 0% to an upper range (although that could sound respectively bit-depth-reduced, or noisy). Starting from that upper range, I once again could begin clipping to taste until another higher threshold. If the - essentally - downwards expansion, and upwards compression don't work together, I could bypass either anytime, or adjust the threshold/ranges.

So yeah, this is basically like up/downwards compression and expansion, just with clipping/distortion or any waveshaping, instead of transparent processing.

Kind of makes me wonder why there aren't adjustable attack/release curves on compressors and alike. I actually wanted to design such RE where you have full control.

[jam-s]

Kind of makes me wonder why there aren't adjustable attack/release curves on compressors and alike. I actually wanted to design such RE where you have full control.

I'm not sure if that's the kind of RE compressor you're looking for, but it is a very versatile one: https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... -dynamics/

[WarStar]

I use clipping on almost every mix I do now.. the tape and tube setting on KClip are extremely effective for clipping and perfect for mastering. I put it between to limiters in my master chain.. so its the second to last vst I have in my master chain. I master fairly loud myself.. I look for dynamic range instead of Luffs.. I shoot for a high -8 lufs and for the loudest part I shoot for a peak of 7 to 6.5 db for the loudest parts but average dynamic range is around 8 or in the 7s

[RobC]

Kind of makes me wonder why there aren't adjustable attack/release curves on compressors and alike. I actually wanted to design such RE where you have full control.

I'm not sure if that's the kind of RE compressor you're looking for, but it is a very versatile one: https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... -dynamics/

I saw this one; actually fairly common concept by now. It could be pushed a bit further, IMO.

[RobC]

I master fairly loud myself..

Why exactly do you do it?

[PhillipOrdonez]

I master fairly loud myself..

Why exactly do you do it?

Yes, why?

[PhillipOrdonez]

More food for thought

[RobC]

Why exactly do you do it?

Yes, why?

It's human nature.

[WarStar]

I master fairly loud myself..

Why exactly do you do it?

Genre wise I want it to be similar in loudness so that's why.. I don't mind it loud though..

[RobC]

Why exactly do you do it?

Genre wise I want it to be similar in loudness so that's why.. I don't mind it loud though..

I guess most people won't be able to tell the difference right away, but personally, I try to find versions of songs that are dynamic (usually vinyl, where youtube doesn't pull the volume back - see in "Stats for nerds" on YT).
But yeah, if you compare at equal loudness, you hear the damage done by over-compression.

At the end of the day, everyone can do what they want. Just, I don't want to be affected by it.

[selig]

Genre wise I want it to be similar in loudness so that's why.. I don't mind it loud though..

I guess most people won't be able to tell the difference right away, but personally, I try to find versions of songs that are dynamic (usually vinyl, where youtube doesn't pull the volume back - see in "Stats for nerds" on YT).
But yeah, if you compare at equal loudness, you hear the damage done by over-compression.

At the end of the day, everyone can do what they want. Just, I don't want to be affected by it.

It’s easy then, just don’t compress it to the point that it is over compressed!
That said, I’m not clear how you are affected by other folks music tastes/styles, or have I (yet again) missed the point?

[RobC]

I guess most people won't be able to tell the difference right away, but personally, I try to find versions of songs that are dynamic (usually vinyl, where youtube doesn't pull the volume back - see in "Stats for nerds" on YT).
But yeah, if you compare at equal loudness, you hear the damage done by over-compression.

At the end of the day, everyone can do what they want. Just, I don't want to be affected by it.

It’s easy then, just don’t compress it to the point that it is over compressed!
That said, I’m not clear how you are affected by other folks music tastes/styles, or have I (yet again) missed the point?

When the loudness war becomes the standard, it affects everyone. And I already described my concerns in this thread, I think.

[selig]

It’s easy then, just don’t compress it to the point that it is over compressed!
That said, I’m not clear how you are affected by other folks music tastes/styles, or have I (yet again) missed the point?

When the loudness war becomes the standard, it affects everyone. And I already described my concerns in this thread, I think.

Wait, do YOU not want to be affected by it, or is EVERYONE affected by it? How can you NOT be affected by it if everone is affected by it?

Your concerns are not what I’m talking about. Consider this: I am not affected by the loudness wars. Therefore “everyone” is not affected by the loudness wars. You can choose to be affected or not, that’s up to you and has nothing to do with anyone else as far as I can tell.

I just don’t understand why other folks opinions affects you personally - it does not affect me (by MY choice), so maybe I can’t relate to why others would choose to be affected?

Finally, fwiw there is plenty of music out there that is fully unconcerned with loudness, so it is far from becoming “the standard” as far as I can see. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment?