Ozone 10 introduces delay

[aeroprism]

Hello all.

Using Ozone 10 Mastering suite in Reason 12.

So far I've been using it for standalone songs and I've had nothing but success with it. Lately however, a friend asked me to write loops for his game and the extracted loops never looped properly. A good deal of digging showed me that inserting an Ozone 10 suite to a Rack creates some silence at the start of an extracted song/loop, even if I disable it. Only when I completely remove the Ozone 10 console does the problem disappear.

Playing with Reason's delay compensation does not fix the issue.

I assume I'm just connecting it incorrectly.

Reason.png (365.68 KiB) Viewed 77306 times

Can anyone give me a few pointers? Thanks!

[WaxTrax]

I don't have the answer, but I read the title to this thread as a new feature being introduced.

[Loque]

Do you have PDC enabled?

[A.sch3]

This wont solve your issue that is not solvable in Reason but : Why don't you put Ozone inside the "Master section" to be able yo quickly toggle Bypass from the Console view ?
Anyway, regarding your issue : Thats a behavior I observed in reason since forever.
When you ask for a render, I believe Reason creates the wav file from 0:00:00 and send the midi signal according to the delay compensation that needs to happen in each track when you load effects and VST. Ozone is introducing latency as part of the way it works, and this delay is going to be printed on the wav file, as reason do not wait for audio to start writing the file.

Hence the "silent gap" you observe. I am not aware of any solution to this issue.

[jam-s]

To export loops it's usually best to have an actual loop section where a block is repeated about 3-4 times and then export the whole song. Afterwards you cut the rendered file into 1st intro part, loop section and end. Depending on your FX tails additional crossfading by the audio engine might be needed to smear over any remaining gaps.

[SynthGang]

Playing with Reason's delay compensation does not fix the issue.

I assume I'm just connecting it incorrectly. Reason.png

Can anyone give me a few pointers? Thanks!

You need to use Ozone as an insert in the Master Section for Delay Compensation to work. From the manual under "Delay Compensation Limitations":

"Only signals that pass the Master Section will be compensated (not channels connected using Direct Outs, see “About using the Direct Out connections of the mixer channels”)."

I did a quick test in a project that had about 15 tracks using an instance of Ozone 9.

Ozone Delay Comp.jpg (95.6 KiB) Viewed 77143 times

Here's the latency with Ozone as an insert in the Master Section:

Ozone Insert - DCOMP On.jpg (5.11 KiB) Viewed 77143 times

Here's the latency with Ozone connected to the Master Out of the Master Section:

Ozone Master Out - DCOMP On.jpg (4.86 KiB) Viewed 77143 times

[aeroprism]

To export loops it's usually best to have an actual loop section where a block is repeated about 3-4 times and then export the whole song. Afterwards you cut the rendered file into 1st intro part, loop section and end. Depending on your FX tails additional crossfading by the audio engine might be needed to smear over any remaining gaps.

This 100% worked. You are my goddarn superhero. THANK YOU!

[aeroprism]

You need to use Ozone as an insert in the Master Section for Delay Compensation to work. From the manual under "Delay Compensation Limitations":

The method from the post above yours worked but I will also try yours
Thank you!!

[SynthGang]

You need to use Ozone as an insert in the Master Section for Delay Compensation to work. From the manual under "Delay Compensation Limitations":

The method from the post above yours worked but I will also try yours
Thank you!!

I would definitely stick to the method provided by @jam-s for bouncing loops since that method will, as he explained, help preserve whatever FX tails might be present and therefore give you a more "accurate" loop.

I would however strongly recommend having a good look at the Delay Compensation section of the manual since being aware of how Reason handles delay compensation is really useful for troubleshooting issues like what you encountered!

Cheers from Canada and happy Reasoning!

[selig]

The only thing to be aware of when putting Ozone in the Master insert is not suggested for one and only one reason - when adding dither. When adding dither Ozone must be the last in the signal path, so no master fader after unless you keep it at unity, which also means to make sure the inserts are POST Master Compressor and Ozone is the last thing in the insert section. Minor details but could be important in some cases. FWIW, I have Ozone between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface but only bounce songs so I’m not worried about any delay on the output.

[aeroprism]

The only thing to be aware of when putting Ozone in the Master insert is not suggested for one and only one reason - when adding dither. When adding dither Ozone must be the last in the signal path, so no master fader after unless you keep it at unity, which also means to make sure the inserts are POST Master Compressor and Ozone is the last thing in the insert section. Minor details but could be important in some cases. FWIW, I have Ozone between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface but only bounce songs so I’m not worried about any delay on the output.

This is soooo far beyond my technical skill level

I'll try to educate myself and figure it out bit by bit. It's funny. I've been using Reason since is launched. Made so many tracks and yet, I have so, so much to learn.

[aeroprism]

The method from the post above yours worked but I will also try yours
Thank you!!

I would definitely stick to the method provided by @jam-s for bouncing loops since that method will, as he explained, help preserve whatever FX tails might be present and therefore give you a more "accurate" loop.

I would however strongly recommend having a good look at the Delay Compensation section of the manual since being aware of how Reason handles delay compensation is really useful for troubleshooting issues like what you encountered!

Cheers from Canada and happy Reasoning!

Reasoning is always happy! Hello, fellow Canadian! French Quebecer here! Well met!

I implemented @jam-s's method and it works beautifully, but I agree, I need to learn and understand how this works on more than a "Here's a fix, apply it blindly" level.

[SynthGang]

I would definitely stick to the method provided by @jam-s for bouncing loops since that method will, as he explained, help preserve whatever FX tails might be present and therefore give you a more "accurate" loop.

I would however strongly recommend having a good look at the Delay Compensation section of the manual since being aware of how Reason handles delay compensation is really useful for troubleshooting issues like what you encountered!

Cheers from Canada and happy Reasoning!

Reasoning is always happy! Hello, fellow Canadian! French Quebecer here! Well met!

I implemented @jam-s's method and it works beautifully, but I agree, I need to learn and understand how this works on more than a "Here's a fix, apply it blindly" level.

Ben voyons donc j'en reviens pas! Disons que je suis d'origine Québécoise mais pas tout à fait Québécois de souche

[aeroprism]

Reasoning is always happy! Hello, fellow Canadian! French Quebecer here! Well met!

I implemented @jam-s's method and it works beautifully, but I agree, I need to learn and understand how this works on more than a "Here's a fix, apply it blindly" level.

Ben voyons donc j'en reviens pas! Disons que je suis d'origine Québécoise mais pas tout à fait Québécois de souche

Ahh bin voilà! Moi je suis tout ce qui a de plus souche. Rive sud de Montréal. T'es un usager de Reason de longue date? Moi je suis un vieux trippeux qui a pas tellement de formation musicale mais qui s'amuse à remixer la musique des jeux qu'il a aimé quand il était ado

[SynthGang]

Ben voyons donc j'en reviens pas! Disons que je suis d'origine Québécoise mais pas tout à fait Québécois de souche

Ahh bin voilà! Moi je suis tout ce qui a de plus souche. Rive sud de Montréal. T'es un usager de Reason de longue date? Moi je suis un vieux trippeux qui a pas tellement de formation musicale mais qui s'amuse à remixer la musique des jeux qu'il a aimé quand il était ado

Ma mère elle est anglophone d'origine écossaise tandis que m'on père lui vien de Québec mais pour ce qui est de moi je suis déménagé hors province depuis l'âge de 13 ans Je suis usager de Reason depuis environ l'an 2005 si je me souviens bien donc pas tellement jeune moi non plus j'aimerais bien ça entendre tes remix!

[aeroprism]

Ahh bin voilà! Moi je suis tout ce qui a de plus souche. Rive sud de Montréal. T'es un usager de Reason de longue date? Moi je suis un vieux trippeux qui a pas tellement de formation musicale mais qui s'amuse à remixer la musique des jeux qu'il a aimé quand il était ado

Ma mère elle est anglophone d'origine écossaise tandis que m'on père lui vien de Québec mais pour ce qui est de moi je suis déménagé hors province depuis l'âge de 13 ans Je suis usager de Reason depuis environ l'an 2005 si je me souviens bien donc pas tellement jeune moi non plus j'aimerais bien ça entendre tes remix!

http://www.youtube.com/aeroprism Pour la facilité de navigation.

http://www.nekoprism.com/ Pour le direct download (le site ne répond pas terriblement vite)

Enjoy! Tu m'en donneras des nouvelles!

[chaosroyale]

The only thing to be aware of when putting Ozone in the Master insert is not suggested for one and only one reason - when adding dither. When adding dither Ozone must be the last in the signal path, so no master fader after unless you keep it at unity, which also means to make sure the inserts are POST Master Compressor and Ozone is the last thing in the insert section. Minor details but could be important in some cases. FWIW, I have Ozone between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface but only bounce songs so I’m not worried about any delay on the output.

You included the exceptions in your own post, but I will just clarify for other users:

You absolutely can use a finalizer VST like Ozone in the Master insert, and indeed you must do so if you want delay compensation BUT as Selig says, if you want to use the dithering of the plugin instead of the Reason default dithering that means you cannot have any processing after the plugin.

I personally don't use the master fader nor the master comp, so I always put finalizers in the master insert section. If I need a master volume control, I make a "whole mix bus" as the last bus before the master.

EDIT > if you use a "master volume fader bus" before the finalizer plugin, fader moves will change your sound if you are using any appreciable amount of limiting. Personally, I get nearly all the compression and limiting done before hitting the finalizer, which is usually just taking care of the occasional intersample peaks. so it isn't an issue in that case. If you are using the final limiter to smash off lots of dB from the mix, it would not be appropriate...but in that case maybe you should also work on the mix a bit more.

[aeroprism]

The only thing to be aware of when putting Ozone in the Master insert is not suggested for one and only one reason - when adding dither. When adding dither Ozone must be the last in the signal path, so no master fader after unless you keep it at unity, which also means to make sure the inserts are POST Master Compressor and Ozone is the last thing in the insert section. Minor details but could be important in some cases. FWIW, I have Ozone between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface but only bounce songs so I’m not worried about any delay on the output.

You included the exceptions in your own post, but I will just clarify for other users:

You absolutely can use a finalizer VST like Ozone in the Master insert, and indeed you must do so if you want delay compensation BUT as Selig says, if you want to use the dithering of the plugin instead of the Reason default dithering that means you cannot have any processing after the plugin.

I personally don't use the master fader nor the master comp, so I always put finalizers in the master insert section. If I need a master volume control, I make a "whole mix bus" as the last bus before the master.

EDIT > if you use a "master volume fader bus" before the finalizer plugin, fader moves will change your sound if you are using any appreciable amount of limiting. Personally, I get nearly all the compression and limiting done before hitting the finalizer, which is usually just taking care of the occasional intersample peaks. so it isn't an issue in that case. If you are using the final limiter to smash off lots of dB from the mix, it would not be appropriate...but in that case maybe you should also work on the mix a bit more.

Starting to experiment on what people said. I now use Ozone as an insert:

Untitled2.png (13.66 KiB) Viewed 76998 times

Untitled.png (286.98 KiB) Viewed 76998 times

It's there, I see if just fine but it does nothing. I feel like I'm SO CLOSE to understanding how this works, I just need that little nudge.

[chaosroyale]

Starting to experiment on what people said. I now use Ozone as an insert:
Untitled2.png
Untitled.png

It's there, I see if just fine but it does nothing. I feel like I'm SO CLOSE to understanding how this works, I just need that little nudge.

heya - in the screenshots you are using it as a Send>Return. This is wrong. See on the right, "Insert > To devices > From devices" - that is what you should use.

[aeroprism]

Starting to experiment on what people said. I now use Ozone as an insert:
Untitled2.png
Untitled.png

It's there, I see if just fine but it does nothing. I feel like I'm SO CLOSE to understanding how this works, I just need that little nudge.

heya - in the screenshots you are using it as a Send>Return. This is wrong. See on the right, "Insert > To devices > From devices" - that is what you should use.

Yes, I tried that as I was waiting for answer and the Ozone works just fine when I do that BUT the delay is still present when I export.

I"m sorry if I make you guys repeat yourselves. I'm kind of an odd ball here, been using Reason since it came out, made dozens of tracks but when I see words like dithering, compressing and side-chaining, my head spins. I still have so much to learn.

Edit: MY BAD!! Delay compensation was OFF in Reason. Now that I'm inserting Ozone PROPERLY like you guys showed me, delay/offset at export is GONE!

One HUGE step in the right direction!!

[chaosroyale]

heya - in the screenshots you are using it as a Send>Return. This is wrong. See on the right, "Insert > To devices > From devices" - that is what you should use.

Yes, I tried that as I was waiting for answer and the Ozone works just fine when I do that BUT the delay is still present when I export.

I"m sorry if I make you guys repeat yourselves. I'm kind of an odd ball here, been using Reason since it came out, made dozens of tracks but when I see words like dithering, compressing and side-chaining, my head spins. I still have so much to learn.

If the delay is present then you have not turned delay compensation on, or there is a different plugin also causing delay without compensation. Some plugins do not accurately report their delay to the DAW, in which case only removing the plugin will help you. Without seeing your complete setup I cannot give you more info than this, sorry. I know from experience that Ozone 10 correctly reports latency to the DAW and is compensated correctly in Reason. (*although, weirdly, the Ozone Rack Extension does NOT report latency correctly when in bypass mode, which is a shame because it is a pretty useful RE otherwise).

[aeroprism]

Yes, I tried that as I was waiting for answer and the Ozone works just fine when I do that BUT the delay is still present when I export.

I"m sorry if I make you guys repeat yourselves. I'm kind of an odd ball here, been using Reason since it came out, made dozens of tracks but when I see words like dithering, compressing and side-chaining, my head spins. I still have so much to learn.

If the delay is present then you have not turned delay compensation on, or there is a different plugin also causing delay without compensation. Some plugins do not accurately report their delay to the DAW, in which case only removing the plugin will help you. Without seeing your complete setup I cannot give you more info than this, sorry. I know from experience that Ozone 10 correctly reports latency to the DAW and is compensated correctly in Reason. (*although, weirdly, the Ozone Rack Extension does NOT report latency correctly when in bypass mode, which is a shame because it is a pretty useful RE otherwise).

100% correct, check my above-edited post

[aeroprism]

I'm sorry for all the double-posts, not sure this still offends people in 2024 or not.

-Learned to insert Ozone properly
-No more delay/offset at importation
-Can now use Reason's precise timestamps to flag loop start/end
-Loops are flawless now, clean, glorious, beautiful.

To all who helped: THANK YOU. THANK YOU!! I learned things, I learned that I needed to learn more things, I fixed a huge problem and now I can be some real help to my friend and his game.

I'm feeling extremely grateful right now!!

[chaosroyale]

I'm sorry for all the double-posts, not sure this still offends people in 2024 or not.

-Learned to insert Ozone properly
-No more delay/offset at importation
-Can now use Reason's precise timestamps to flag loop start/end
-Loops are flawless now, clean, glorious, beautiful.

To all who helped: THANK YOU. THANK YOU!! I learned things, I learned that I needed to learn more things, I fixed a huge problem and now I can be some real help to my friend and his game.

I'm feeling extremely grateful right now!!

Glad you got it sorted out!