Reason vs. Logic

[selig]

Come on, keep your product bashing focus y’all! We’re supposed to be bashing Reason versus Logic, not Apple versus PC!

[plaamook]

Some people on this forum are still using 10+ year old systems, and this machine feels like it could be one of those if I really had to.

Yeah. 2012 13”mbp jacked up to the eyeballs (relatively speaking)
Purrs like a kitten still but w all the vsts you feel the pull towards an M1
Can’t afford it though.

[jam-s]

A Logic feature i've seen in action recently is Varispeed. Something that Logic does really good and many other DAWs doesn't have it. Slow down the whole song with a speed control knob like in a tape machine, so you can record melodies with your midi keyboard, when you're in a genre where the bpm is high and you're a not so talented keyboard player.

Would be nice, when Reason would have this, too.

Reason (or rather Record) has had this feature from the start. When you change the tempo the audio gets stretched and that stretch algorithm is really good. Also the tempo can easily be automated.

[jfrichards]

Reason (or rather Record) has had this feature from the start.

I have used it so often, on half my songs, I "forgot" it existed. Here is an example from yesterday, where I slowed the whole song from 120 bpm to 110 bpm, something I have done on hundreds of songs.

[avasopht]

You been smoking banana peels, joey?



^^ THIS ^^

Full disclosure: I have owned Macs in the past, and my entire household is currently (mostly) Apple, aside from some lingering Echo Dots I'm trying to get rid of and 3 custom-built PC's (that were all - at the time of the build - astronomically less expensive than a similar/equivalent spec'd Mac). I mean, I drink the Apple kool-aide as well, Joey - but dude... come on..

Hey I said what I said and I stand by it

Apple costs more, but you're paying for better hardware and experience and the prices are not Teenage Engineering level of ridiculousness. You're not paying a higher price for the same thing. People need to stop with that nonsense. PC stuff is cheap and less reliable.

And then people go and compare basic numbers and components like, "Hey this guitar has 2 pickups and 6 strings for a lower price". I guess you saved money and got the "same thing"

[insert meme here] Kids: "Can we get a Mac?" Mom: "We've got a Mac at home" (shows picture of a PC)

I'll say it again, my computer is the heart of my music making setup. The difference of a few hundred dollars for better hardware, better software and reliability, is justified for me. People are still paying more for single hardware synths than I pay for my computer that runs everything that I upgrade once every 10 years or so. I do not see it as overpriced. You get what you pay for.

I gave specifics, such as the overcharging for standard off-the-shelf memory and hard drives.

When I upgraded my iMac myself, I saved myself a few hundred pounds by buying the exact same brand of RAM and hard drive that Apple uses and installing it myself.

The markup of Apple hardware (at least until the M1) was a very well-understood fact in the industry. And I am just talking about differences where the differences are only the replaceable parts.

So no, I'm talking about the exact same thing. As in, the exact same parts (slightly different model numbers and costing more than Apple would have paid for those same parts but they'd be the same parts from a different batch).

The high markup is partly why Apple stands alone with $150+ billion in liquid cash.

Now, it's clear that Apple put more into chassis design, etc, as their machines do have exceptional airflow and overall design.

[selig]

Are we talking about opinions? Becuase I believe we are, and you can’t say someone’s opinion is “right or wrong”, it just “is”.
Unless there is a specific dollar value that is priced “correctly” that we can all agree on, one mans “overpriced” is another mans “totally worth it”. In my case, I ‘ think of myself as a computer user - I am a music/audio professional who uses whatever tools needed. Since 1986, I’ve used the best computer for the money for what I wanted to do and how I want to do it.

So I’d have to say that in my opinion Mac computers are not overpriced. And if it’s not true for you, it doesn’t make it any less true for me!

As for Logic, I have it and have had it for years, and still only manage to get one or two songs out of it. Reason is a better song creation environment for me, and Pro Tools was, and now LUNA is a better mix environment for me. I don’t think the number of features alone is enough to sway me…

[avasopht]

Are we talking about opinions? Becuase I believe we are, and you can’t say someone’s opinion is “right or wrong”, it just “is”.
Unless there is a specific dollar value that is priced “correctly” that we can all agree on, one mans “overpriced” is another mans “totally worth it”. In my case, I ‘ think of myself as a computer user - I am a music/audio professional who uses whatever tools needed. Since 1986, I’ve used the best computer for the money for what I wanted to do and how I want to do it.

So I’d have to say that in my opinion Mac computers are not overpriced. And if it’s not true for you, it doesn’t make it any less true for me!

I'm not talking about opinions.

I'm talking about a fact about the way they price parts.

If you wanted to add 2GB to a 2009 iMac, Apple was charging 2-3 times as much as it would have cost to buy the same RAM module.

That doesn't mean that I'm saying "Macs are overpriced" because with the Mac comes the OS and all the things you've described about the overall package.

But that's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about the objective price of components that can be compared on a 1-1 basis (especially when you identify the brand and model of the component and can compare the measured cost of that particular component in isolation).



This changes a lot with the M1 and M2 processors because the RAM is etched onto the same die as the CPU so it's not a simple component replacement (and suspect they are still overcharging for increased RAM, however, that depends on production yields).

But the same cannot be said about SSD storage (which is not etched onto the M1 SoC).



To go from 256 GB to 512 GB Apple wants £200 and £400 to go to 1 TB (UK pricing).

In the iFixit teardown of the 2021 Mac you can see that they used Kioxia KICM225UZ0460 2×128 GB NAND.

Pricing is complex because the SSDs are soldered on, and the 512 GB Macbook uses 4x 128 GB Kioxia KICM225UZ0460 SSDs. So you could argue that the additional cost comes from soldering them onto the board (though that sounds sketchy).

For reference, you can buy a 1 TB Kioxia Plus SSD for £60 (retail), which matches the performance of the KICM225UZ0460 (though that is a single module). But given the 1 TB module is £60, at most it'll cost £70-80 for 4x 256 GB SSD modules that each match the performance of the KICM225UZ0460).

As for Logic, I have it and have had it for years, and still only manage to get one or two songs out of it. Reason is a better song creation environment for me, and Pro Tools was, and now LUNA is a better mix environment for me. I don’t think the number of features alone is enough to sway me…

Ditto. I'm currently debating getting a Mac Mini (or a Macbook) for music production (with my only objection being that I might also use it for development and there are a few annoying differences in hotkeys and stuff). Plus it'll allow me to try out LUNA.

[DaveyG]

I have no doubt that Macs are the best platform to use for music production. I also have no doubt that Apple take the piss with their pricing of add-ons and upgrades. They do it because they can, in the same way that replacement parts for premium car brands are two or three times the prices of the same parts for "normal" cars, even though the materials and manufacturing processes are the same.

That makes Macs somewhere between expensive and very expensive. Whether that makes them poor value is entirely the opinion of the person who buys them.

I'd love a Mac, and I'd love to use Logic, but I can't justify the price to myself.

As for the Reason vs Logic thing, it would definitely be Reason in Logic for me

[selig]

I'm not talking about opinions.

Yea, you are. You can’t just price the raw components without factoring in the whole experience.

You are basically sayin you are right and I am wrong. I say Macs are not overpriced. That is MY opinion. It is based on years of experience. One cannot know my mind, my needs, or my opinion better than I do, my friend!

I think it’s awesome there are options, it’s made for a better market overall. Please just accept I have a different opinion about the value of the tools I use than you do. It’s a beautiful thing.

[tomusurp]

I use 3 DAW, Reason my main, then FL Studio, then Logic on my iPad. I just learn tools and make music. Open whichever DAW I feel like that day and make everything in one. If you ask me which is "better", that certainly can be subjective, for it's Reason because of certain features which are streamlined, but I simply like learning different tools.

[avasopht]

Just so we're clear: I AGREE with EVERYTHING you've said about the "overall value of the tools you use".

I don't understand why this is so confusing.

I say Macs are not overpriced. That is MY opinion. It is based on years of experience. One cannot know my mind, my needs, or my opinion better than I do, my friend!

That doesn't mean that I'm saying "Macs are overpriced"[,] because with the Mac comes the OS and all the things you've described about the overall package.

One more time: I'm not saying "Macs are overpriced".

I've added a comma in case that confused you (as I guess it could be read, somehow, differently).



All I said was that they charge the consumer 200% more than the cost of a particular off-the-shelf component (in this case the SSD).



I don't understand why you keep insisting that I'm saying Macs as a whole are overpriced (which I am not saying). I'm not sure how anything I've said makes any implication on:
1. Your needs (I wasn't making any personal implications about you or your needs).
2. Your years of experience (I'm not doubting you're a really accomplished guy, Selig).
3. Your opinion (of Macs being or not being overpriced as a whole, which I was never talking about)



I understand that you are only looking at the cost as a whole. I am not disagreeing with or arguing against that.

I understand that point of view.



You have (I'm guessing) learned the value of not considering the individual cost of components, and I understand that. It's not difficult to understand. You're only looking at the price and experience as a whole.

You can’t just price the raw components without factoring in the whole experience.

I have AGREED that the whole experience IS valuable (exactly as you have said).



One more time: I am in complete agreement with that.

Another time: I am in complete agreement with your comments on the value of a Mac as a whole.

For the people in the back: I am in complete agreement with ...



Now, on the other hand (for clarity, I'm offering a counterargument to my own argument), it can be argued that the lower-priced Macs are sold at something of a discount so that if you buy a Mac Mini for £700 or the cheapest Macbook, you are getting a huge bargain.



That would be a much better argument against my measuring of the price differential for SSDs (and justification for not allowing user upgrades of those components).

It's a far more reasoned rebuttal (and one that does not rely on appeals to authority based on one's experience and seniority).



Note to self: Maybe the discussion would be clearer if I prefixed my intent (e.g. when I pointed out that I was offering a counterargument to my own argument).

[avasopht]

I use 3 DAW, Reason my main, then FL Studio, then Logic on my iPad. I just learn tools and make music. Open whichever DAW I feel like that day and make everything in one. If you ask me which is "better", that certainly can be subjective, for it's Reason because of certain features which are streamlined, but I simply like learning different tools.

Same.

I also mix in a separate project using bounced audio (even when using Reason). It gives me a fresh context to mix.



I've also found myself preferring Reason for recording vocals. Whenever I'd pull out a different DAW, there'd always be some lacking feature that's easy in Reason (and looks like I'm doing magic).



But I do find Logic (without plugins) is good for knocking together some concepts quickly. I prefer the arrangement of the library over NI as it's more vanilla and has good variation between orchestral instruments (though I'm not a fan of the added effects).

[tomusurp]

I use 3 DAW, Reason my main, then FL Studio, then Logic on my iPad. I just learn tools and make music. Open whichever DAW I feel like that day and make everything in one. If you ask me which is "better", that certainly can be subjective, for it's Reason because of certain features which are streamlined, but I simply like learning different tools.

Same.

I also mix in a separate project using bounced audio (even when using Reason). It gives me a fresh context to mix.



I've also found myself preferring Reason for recording vocals. Whenever I'd pull out a different DAW, there'd always be some lacking feature that's easy in Reason (and looks like I'm doing magic).



But I do find Logic (without plugins) is good for knocking together some concepts quickly. I prefer the arrangement of the library over NI as it's more vanilla and has good variation between orchestral instruments (though I'm not a fan of the added effects).

Oh that's a good idea to bounce and mix in a different session so it's easier on the CPU. I do everything in one because for the most part my laptop can handle it. When it can't, simply increasing buffer size to 1024 works for me.

But exactly, vocals on Reason is simply SUPERB. The built-in pitch correction, slicing, mixing access etc. is simply unmatched. Whereas in FL Studio for example, although their punch-in feature is great, pitch-correction method is frankenstein like. Logic on iPad I only make beats and it's super easy yet feature rich.

[selig]

I don't understand why this is so confusing.
..................
Note to self: Maybe the discussion would be clearer if I prefixed my intent (e.g. when I pointed out that I was offering a counterargument to my own argument).

I think you answered your own question.

[avasopht]

I think you answered your own question.

Well, the internet is old enough for us all to know how easy it is for miscommunication to take place.

At the same time, I can only do so much if the other person persists in misunderstanding no matter how well or unambiguously communicated.



And I think it's fair to say that what I wrote was clear enough to not result in the misunderstanding that followed.

[moofi]

Haven´t looked into current pricings of Macs (at least used to be 1.5x the price of a PC equivalent performance-wise, let alone how much you would have to pay for stuff like a thunderbolt cable or anything) and while I can concur with the saying you usually get a more pleasant design along according craftmanship and improved shenanigans, I´m not really satisfied with Mac´s OS to begin with. Get me straight, not saying Windows is the shizz, iOS just isn´t either. Hopefully with AI we can eventually welcome a new open-source OS, blowing OS into 21st century (similar like Manga used to say).

In terms of hardware, I basically got a pretty solid custom built PC here. And if you think AI, Mac doesn´t really cut it so far with the CPU-implemented graphic chip. Only actively tested it with an M1 so far and couldn´t tell how an M2 performs, yet the M1 at least was quite a bit slower than even a GTX1660 I had before a 4080 upgrade that in turn is 40-60 times faster than the 1660 in terms of AI comparibly, granted much more costly as well (and I don´t go along with NVIDIA´s pricing either btw). Leading to an additional issue I have with Mac is the lack of post-buy configurability and also configuration availability in the first place.

Whatsoever floats someone´s boat so to speak, yet to completely justify the higher price with the aaawww so much better Mac is a bit overrated from experience.

You been smoking banana peels, joey?



^^ THIS ^^

Full disclosure: I have owned Macs in the past, and my entire household is currently (mostly) Apple, aside from some lingering Echo Dots I'm trying to get rid of and 3 custom-built PC's (that were all - at the time of the build - astronomically less expensive than a similar/equivalent spec'd Mac). I mean, I drink the Apple kool-aide as well, Joey - but dude... come on..

Hey I said what I said and I stand by it

Apple costs more, but you're paying for better hardware and experience and the prices are not Teenage Engineering level of ridiculousness. You're not paying a higher price for the same thing. People need to stop with that nonsense. PC stuff is cheap and less reliable.

And then people go and compare basic numbers and components like, "Hey this guitar has 2 pickups and 6 strings for a lower price". I guess you saved money and got the "same thing"

[insert meme here] Kids: "Can we get a Mac?" Mom: "We've got a Mac at home" (shows picture of a PC)

I'll say it again, my computer is the heart of my music making setup. The difference of a few hundred dollars for better hardware, better software and reliability, is justified for me. People are still paying more for single hardware synths than I pay for my computer that runs everything that I upgrade once every 10 years or so. I do not see it as overpriced. You get what you pay for.