4 microphone recordings? (Stereo + Mid/Side)

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RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

28 Feb 2023

Anyone ever experimented with something like this?

I was thinking about getting some simple matched pair of condenser microphones for stereo recording; then using my old USB mic for recording ambience in omni directional mode for the "side", and the NT1 obviously for the "mid"

I probably would tops spend money on a 2 mic input focusrite ~ which means 2 takes needed (M/S and stereo) - but that's not a too big problem, since 1 take with 4 mics might cause too much cancellation.

In fact, I'd take it further: mid/side + stereo + doubling.

Okay, I'm getting confusing, so let's simplify:

If we'd record vocals with a 4 microphone setup (M/S and stereo) ~ let's say you have enough mic inputs, so you can do it all in just 1 take; and you do 2 more mono takes (then pan left and right, aka doubling); - then if you mix it all together, would it sound any good, or would it rather be a mess?

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selig
RE Developer
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28 Feb 2023

If experimenting is what you want to do, put on that lab coat and start already!

Post the results here so we can all 'experiment' with you! I know enough to not dismiss an idea because it may not work, what's the fun in that?!? Most of my 'great ideas' ended up not working for me, but sometimes they work indirectly - they lead you to other ideas that DO work for you.
But my point is DO IT. Or as we like to say at the start of a session: we can keep talking about the music, or we can get up and start making it.

If OTOH, you want to achieve a certain sound, help us understand it first.
Selig Audio, LLC

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moalla
Posts: 541
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28 Feb 2023

Yeah i started saturday just a thread about this at gearspace, i just found a second Rode NT2a for a little bít mor than 100bugs and now I´m gladly able to use it in Jerry Bruck´s KFM 360 surround recording technique.

Image

so this emulates the human hearing in a natural way, the difference to a double side MS recording offered by schoeps is, that the omni mics are just have more bass and room amount

Image

the side signal of the fig8 mic is still splited into two channels, who are phase inverted left and right channels, the mid signal is the omni/cardiod mic and mono thats all. The routing not deppends if you are using cardiod or omni mics for the mono signal.

Image

When you don´t have a soundcardmixer how offers this feature itseld you could use Anansi Mid Side Router in the first a little bit irritating of its function but works perfect
https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... de-router/

For a first cheap try for a multi pattern mic look for a Behringer C3, Samson multipattern or similiar low priced stuff what lacks not total in frequency response, professional starts i would say with a nt2a or miktek mk300 how are at least quiet comparable with a AKG C414, I just checked some sound comparisons and the inexpensive C3 mic sounds okay and costs used around 20-40buck. the omni small condensers I own are newly cost 29€ at musicstore ( Fame Single Pro omni sdc 16db self noise 15mv sensitive), sounds amazing for its price, but i think also a pair of behringer B5 are very usable. What i have read the Avatone CK1 are the best bang for the buck at the moment when your are looking for a small interchangebale capsule. But enough tech talk.

Yeah we made some ambience recordings at my friends home, 16m² room, 3,5 height, full of instruments (little bit dangerous with their body resonances) with one NT2a and the two singel pro on top. The position was a little bit out of the center of the room and it works fantastic, compared with recording tries in the past, in XY or Otrf technique a big big step, much more than the next expensive mic invest.
The fine thing with MS double side is, it´s much easier to find the right mix, also not the big think with equalizing, so for my KFM 360 setup it needs only some eq interventions for the omni sdc´s to give them a more neutral frequency response. Than the most important thing is the room, or if the room adds to much reverb to the recorded, how to tame it. Best inexpensive way i know from recording artist, are some sheats of molton at the walls, or at the celling, but in most cases, simply more - extra carpets are just fine.
For thighter Ms double sight recs cardiods are the better choice.
maybe helfull https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/user_uploa ... E_2010.pdf

nice regards
Mo from Frankfurt
Last edited by moalla on 28 Feb 2023, edited 1 time in total.
https://soundcloud.com/user-594407128
Reason12.5, Yamaha EG112, Ibanez PF10, RhythmWolf, Miniak, Ipad+SparkLE
SE2200t :arrow: VAS micpre MOTO:better repair-mod well made stuff than buy the next crap

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

28 Feb 2023

selig wrote:
28 Feb 2023
If experimenting is what you want to do, put on that lab coat and start already!

Post the results here so we can all 'experiment' with you! I know enough to not dismiss an idea because it may not work, what's the fun in that?!? Most of my 'great ideas' ended up not working for me, but sometimes they work indirectly - they lead you to other ideas that DO work for you.
But my point is DO IT. Or as we like to say at the start of a session: we can keep talking about the music, or we can get up and start making it.

If OTOH, you want to achieve a certain sound, help us understand it first.
The thing is, this idea struck my mind, so I thought, maybe I should stretch the budget a bit and get a Focusrite Scarlett with two inputs, and two matching microphones. So, I can't experiment with what I didn't even buy yet. : )

I thought that people already tried this idea, actually.
It's nothing new that an M/S recording rather has an atmosphere to it, it's more about depth; while a stereo recording can be super wide and realistic; and doubling sounds rather like some sort of dual-mono modulation. Each are unique sounding in their own way.

Perhaps, I'm most curious about how a live recording with 4 mics would sound. Again, M/S + Stereo.

But actually, it would also be possible to do 1 take with 4 mics; and then do 4 mono takes (then mix those 4 to mid, side, left and right in any order), and finally mix all of them together.

Again, I think of experiments and their benefits the same way, but I have to carefully choose what I invest into, ATM.

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

28 Feb 2023

moalla wrote:
28 Feb 2023
Yeah i started saturday just a thread about this at gearspace, i just found a second Rode NT2a for a little bít mor than 100bugs and now I´m gladly able to use it in Jerry Bruck´s KFM 360 surround recording technique.

Image

so this emulates the human hearing in a natural way, the difference to a double side MS recording offered by schoeps is, that the omni mics are just have more bass and room amount

Image

the side signal of the fig8 mic is still splited into two channels, who are phase inverted left and right channels, the mid signal is the omni/cardiod mic and mono thats all. The routing not deppends if you are using cardiod or omni mics for the mono signal.

Image

When you don´t have a soundcardmixer how offers this feature itseld you could use Anansi Mid Side Router in the first a little bit irritating of its function but works perfect
https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... de-router/

For a first cheap try for a multi pattern mic look for a Behringer C3, Samson multipattern or similiar low priced stuff what lacks not total in frequency response, professional starts i would say with a nt2a or miktek mk300 how are at least quiet comparable with a AKG C414, I just checked some sound comparisons and the inexpensive C3 mic sounds okay and costs used around 20-40buck. the omni small condensers I own are newly cost 29€ at musicstore ( Fame Single Pro omni sdc 16db self noise 15mv sensitive), sounds amazing for its price, but i think also a pair of behringer B5 are very usable. What i have read the Avatone CK1 are the best bang for the buck at the moment when your are looking for a small interchangebale capsule. But enough tech talk.

Yeah we made some ambience recordings at my friends home, 16m² room, 3,5 height, full of instruments (little bit dangerous with their body resonances) with one NT2a and the two singel pro on top. The position was a little bit out of the center of the room and it works fantastic, compared with recording tries in the past, in XY or Otrf technique a big big step, much more than the next expensive mic invest.
The fine thing with MS double side is, it´s much easier to find the right mix, also not the big think with equalizing, so for my KFM 360 setup it needs only some eq interventions for the omni sdc´s to give them a more neutral frequency response. Than the most important thing is the room, or if the room adds to much reverb to the recorded, how to tame it. Best inexpensive way i know from recording artist, are some sheats of molton at the walls, or at the celling, but in most cases, simply more - extra carpets are just fine.
For thighter Ms double sight recs cardiods are the better choice.

nice regards
Mo from Frankfurt
Interesting! I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking of this idea.

And ironically, I also looked at Behringer mics, the C4 pair, specifically.
I do have a Samson Go USB mic.
And finally, a Rode NT1 ~ it's quite popular, and it would be the main, most dominant microphone in the mix.

Now that you mention it, it's really better to go cardioid all the way, otherwise things can indeed get very unbalanced.

So, basically, stereo mics would look to the left and right, the 'mid' towards me, the side 'backwards'. In theory, at least. : )

As for the room, I didn't do too much, yet it's pretty dry sounding already. I don't want it too dry though, to keep a bit of the ambience/reverb.

Question is, how it sounds. Is it worth it?

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moalla
Posts: 541
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: DDR WEST

28 Feb 2023

The thing with the budget, mhh i just spend the price of one new nt2a for two of them plus a newly used class mindprint a di port preamp, what is a big big benefitt now.
A used scarlett 18i8 with 4 pres cost around 200€, steinberg ur44 or behringer umc404 around 100€ + here on ebay-kleinanzeigen germany , but the best bang for the buck i would say get a audient id44, it offers better preamps than RME. Personal I´m hunting gear and always looking for a snap, but I have to be patient ;)
https://soundcloud.com/user-594407128
Reason12.5, Yamaha EG112, Ibanez PF10, RhythmWolf, Miniak, Ipad+SparkLE
SE2200t :arrow: VAS micpre MOTO:better repair-mod well made stuff than buy the next crap

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moalla
Posts: 541
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: DDR WEST

28 Feb 2023

Didn´t used the C4´s, but Behringer C2´s what worked really well, but in terms of proximity and frequency response a Samson C03 would be the better cheap multipattern (still have the usb version liying around here, got it for free nothing spectactular), but better save the money and wait for a nice snap on ebay and get a NT2a everything else would be sensless ;) these combined with the fame single pro pseudo omnis, they sitting between omnis and cardiods, the recording results are outstanding with no perceptible noise!
https://soundcloud.com/user-594407128
Reason12.5, Yamaha EG112, Ibanez PF10, RhythmWolf, Miniak, Ipad+SparkLE
SE2200t :arrow: VAS micpre MOTO:better repair-mod well made stuff than buy the next crap

RobC
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

01 Mar 2023

moalla wrote:
28 Feb 2023
Didn´t used the C4´s, but Behringer C2´s what worked really well, but in terms of proximity and frequency response a Samson C03 would be the better cheap multipattern (still have the usb version liying around here, got it for free nothing spectactular), but better save the money and wait for a nice snap on ebay and get a NT2a everything else would be sensless ;) these combined with the fame single pro pseudo omnis, they sitting between omnis and cardiods, the recording results are outstanding with no perceptible noise!
Yeah I guess you're right, that I should get proper tools later, instead of buying junk now, even if it's tempting for experimentation. : )
Although it's still VERY tempting xD - but for professional use ~ now that's another question. : D

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moalla
Posts: 541
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: DDR WEST

01 Mar 2023

Image
the cheap samson toy, streaming shit needs no further words
https://soundcloud.com/user-594407128
Reason12.5, Yamaha EG112, Ibanez PF10, RhythmWolf, Miniak, Ipad+SparkLE
SE2200t :arrow: VAS micpre MOTO:better repair-mod well made stuff than buy the next crap

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