[SOLVED] Rack Extension FX VST3 is technically broken since the release

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supersmarter
Posts: 40
Joined: 25 Sep 2015

Post 12 Dec 2022

Since the introduction of the Rack Extension FX version years ago - it never technically worked correctly.
How? Very simple to test (patch attached).

TLDR version: Rack Extension FX does NOT reveal latency to the host (DAW) correctly. Making it unusable in not-so-rare session configurations and mixing scenarios.

Example: ASIO buffer 256, 48khz.

Load Reason(I mean Reason DAW). Add Redrum. Now load my combinator patch into Insert FX and flip rack. It says 1.536 samples of latency. And this indeed is the correct latency in samples. At 48khz and 256 samples that are around 32ms. I am saying around because for the purpose of explaining a correct figure is not needed, remember 32ms or 1.536 samples.

And as you can see Reason 12 when used as DAW in standalone mode "sense" delay and PDC is working perfectly when the song is in play mode. PDC is working perfectly because the correct latency is revealed to a host (DAW). I mean you can add other instruments and channels and all will be aligned correctly to the one with the largest latency.

The big latency comes from the 8 Maximizer devices each with enabled 4ms of lookahead. Obviously, this patch has been made for demonstration purposes.

Remember 1.536 samples of latency. If you intend to load my 8xMaximizer patch it can be different in your computer based on project kHz, ASIO setup, etc.)

Now load your DAW such as Ableton Live, Cubase or Bitwig, or whatever. Load Rack Extension FX. At 48khz it immediately says 1.3ms of latency with no device loaded. Now try to load my patch and after you load it - it does not calculate additional latency.

No matter what is thrown at it or put inside the combinator or outside of it, latency is always the same. 1.3 ms. Saving, reloading nothing works. Fixed latency is technically impossible and Maximizer is not the only plugin that introduces latency. Quite a lot of Rack Extensions can induce latency.

When making complex chains (which is a Reason strength) or parallel processing chains this is impossible with Rack Extension FX.

Everything works fine when you are inside Reason but when you load the same patch in 3rd party DAW then it's broken because the timing is not correct and this is causing all sorts of timing, groove, or phasing issues in the mixing stage.

The Reason Rack FX plugin does not process them correctly, simply put 1.3ms fixed latency is wrong.

So am I doing something wrong? Is there some setting I can't find? Why does Reason Rack FX not report correct latency to a DAW - exclusively never?

I know this has nothing with actual VST3 hosting but it would be nice if they fix something they released a while ago. How come no one is having problems with this? Are you not using fantastic Rack Extensions and reason plugins in different DAW? This was a huge seller for me but it turned out not to work correctly. I had hoped they will silently fix it but this never happened.

Can anyone comment? Perhaps Reason staff? Is this on to do for fixing?
8xMaximizer.zip
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MattiasHG
Reason Studios
Posts: 480
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 12 Dec 2022

I just checked this in Ableton Live 11 on Mac and it reports correctly. I simply add a Reason Rack Plugin Effect on a MIDI track with an instrument and if I load your Combinator it happily reports 1472 samples of latency at 44.1kHz and 1600 samples on 48kHz. If I remove or add a Maximizer with look ahead, that number changes. If I add any other latency-introducing RE to the chain, it reports correctly. This also works without a Combinator, i.e. simply a rack of effects. Just to be sure, I also tested this in Reason Rack Plugin, the instrument version. I added a Monotone and then your Combinator as an effect and that, too, reports latency correctly.

Is the effect wired up to the input/output correctly? Audio coming from MAIN input and going back to any output? I recommend getting in touch with support and they can help you track down what's going wrong, they also have access to Windows which I do not in case it's something platform specific. It's useful if you include a project file for your DAW that they can load up and check.

supersmarter
Posts: 40
Joined: 25 Sep 2015

Post 12 Dec 2022

MattiasHG wrote:
12 Dec 2022
I just checked this in Ableton Live 11 on Mac and it reports correctly. I simply add a Reason Rack Plugin Effect on a MIDI track with an instrument and if I load your Combinator it happily reports 1472 samples of latency at 44.1kHz and 1600 samples on 48kHz. If I remove or add a Maximizer with look ahead, that number changes. If I add any other latency-introducing RE to the chain, it reports correctly. This also works without a Combinator, i.e. simply a rack of effects. Just to be sure, I also tested this in Reason Rack Plugin, the instrument version. I added a Monotone and then your Combinator as an effect and that, too, reports latency correctly.

Is the effect wired up to the input/output correctly? Audio coming from MAIN input and going back to any output? I recommend getting in touch with support and they can help you track down what's going wrong, they also have access to Windows which I do not in case it's something platform specific. It's useful if you include a project file for your DAW that they can load up and check.
Hi Mattias! I am very happy you reported that. It is very cool to have an active developer responding.

You seem to be on Mac. On Windows, this is not working. I am going to record a video for you. I just tried it in Ableton Live and Bitwig.

Wiring is not the problem, I simply load Rack Extension and drag devices in it and it does not work at all(I mean latency does not change in DAW). Combinator patches that work perfectly on Reason - in Windows VST3 Reason Rack they don't report latency (sound processing is correct, just not the latency). It has been like that since always.

I'll get back to you and post the video here and then if you think this is a bug I'll report it to the team. I don't want you to waste your time on this so please just use your day on something smarter than my issues and if possible check this thread in a few days.

Have a nice day.

supersmarter
Posts: 40
Joined: 25 Sep 2015

Post 12 Dec 2022

Mattias, I have found the root cause of the issue (and why this never works for me). It seems to be a bug.

When you add Rack Extension to a host and then you load effects in it (say 3x Maximizer with 4ms lookahead) the latency is indeed reported correctly. As you pointed out. Even on Windows.

But when you combine devices in Combinator or try to load patches that are saved in Combinator latency is wrong. Because I always try to save my racks in combinator this never worked for me.

Try this:

1. Load RackExtension FX VST3
2. In empty rack load combinator (right click-utilities-combinator)
3. Now try loading 3 maximizes inside that combinator with 4ms look ahead - Latency does not change in DAW

It seems every time devices are combined or in a combinator patch, they are not reporting latency.

See my screenshot. And look at the reported latency (wrong value). If I load and stack Maximizers one after another, then the latency is ok. But when they are in Combinator this is not working, as if the combinator removes reported latency. But the same thing functions correctly in Reason when Reason is used in standalone latency from a combinator is correct.

Two screenshots. One when maximizes are in a combinator, and one when they are not.
01.jpg
02.jpg
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supersmarter
Posts: 40
Joined: 25 Sep 2015

Post 12 Dec 2022

Update: I realized what is wrong. Routing. Case closed!!!

Thank you I am with the stupid!!!!!!!!

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MattiasHG
Reason Studios
Posts: 480
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 12 Dec 2022

supersmarter wrote:
12 Dec 2022
Update: I realized what is wrong. Routing. Case closed!!!

Thank you I am with the stupid!!!!!!!!
I was just gonna say, you had no audio input or audio source so the devices never rendered! Glad the mystery's solved :D

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