A question about Pulveriser output

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gcat
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Sep 2022

Post 08 Sep 2022

While using Pulveriser, I noticed that if I reset the device so that every one of the effects is bypassed, the volume of the signal coming out of Pulveriser is still increased substantially.

This happens regardless of having the wet/dry selector turned to wet or dry, and in the case of 100% dry the volume boost is noticeably more pronounced than on wet.

I made some tests and I noticed that to have this volume boost "neutralized", maintaining the same volume with or without the Pulverizer on the signal chain, you have to turn the Pulveriser volume knob to 52% if the wet/dry selector is completely on wet, and to 35% if completely on dry. The standard setting for the volume knob is 79%.

I just wonder out of curiosity what is causing this volume boost if everything is bypassed?

RobC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 08 Sep 2022

Can't test this right now, but maybe you discovered a new bug.

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rgdaniel
Posts: 565
Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Location: Canada

Post 08 Sep 2022

Seeing the same thing here. (R12 Win) I've long had a Pulverizer as one of my default sends from the main mixer, and have come to embrace the slight boost in volume. Seems like more often than not it needs a boost. Could be just my specific context though, or confirmation bias. I would welcome a bug fix to even that out, but I don't expect it, or even rate it highly.

Steedus
Posts: 850
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne, AU

Post 08 Sep 2022

Absolutely noticed this for years but to be honest it never bugged me. Noticed it when using the mix knob at 0% the volume was always boosted still.

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selig
RE Developer
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Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 08 Sep 2022

I have long complained about this and don’t remember ever getting a response. Lets just say it is ‘modeling’ imprecise analog behavior? ;)

Here are the numbers for any math geeks out there:
With all other settings at default, unity gain should be with Volume @ 69%, but this can change with different input signals since the filter is active/inline. With white noise, unity is around 48% because of the resonance boost.(without resonance unity is @ 45%)
With filter bypassed, unity gain is @ 55%.
With Blend fully DRY, unity gain is @ 35%.
(Note: at some settings you can see a slight level change without changing the percentage reading, because there are 127 steps and 100 values).

This shows that with Blend at 50/50, you are not likely hearing exactly half and half dry/wet. For this to work, Volume should be unity with Blend at fully Dry OR fully Wet.
Blend uses a 6 dB curve crossfader, meaning the dry signal is reduced by 6 dB at 50% Blend. But moving from Dry to Wet (default settings with filter bypassed), you will see a level drop of around 5 dB, meaning the Wet signal is about 5 dB lower than the dry. This suggests that with the default settings and filter bypassed, the ‘true’ 50/50 point is around 59-60% Blend. With the filter at default settings, the 50/50 point is around 56-57%, but it is dependent somewhat on frequency response since the filter is removing some of the signal (and we assume nothing about the input signal which may or may not have any energy at that/those frequencies affected by the filter).
The “proper” solution IMO is to have output metering and a separate Wet Level control - this is one of the common issues with dry/wet Blend controls… ;(
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 10542
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 08 Sep 2022

rgdaniel wrote:
08 Sep 2022
Seeing the same thing here. (R12 Win) I've long had a Pulverizer as one of my default sends from the main mixer, and have come to embrace the slight boost in volume. Seems like more often than not it needs a boost. Could be just my specific context though, or confirmation bias. I would welcome a bug fix to even that out, but I don't expect it, or even rate it highly.
As a send you would not be bothered by a gain change - you simply add as much send as required to sound ‘right’ to you. But with an insert effect, you should start with a fully dry signal measuring @ unity gain at the default setting, but that would mean lowering the output Volume quite a bit (around 35% to my measurements).

As long as folks are aware of the issue they can know they will likely need to make adjustments on the Volume control.
Selig Audio, LLC

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rgdaniel
Posts: 565
Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Location: Canada

Post 08 Sep 2022

selig wrote:
08 Sep 2022
rgdaniel wrote:
08 Sep 2022
Seeing the same thing here. (R12 Win) I've long had a Pulverizer as one of my default sends from the main mixer, and have come to embrace the slight boost in volume. Seems like more often than not it needs a boost. Could be just my specific context though, or confirmation bias. I would welcome a bug fix to even that out, but I don't expect it, or even rate it highly.
As a send you would not be bothered by a gain change - you simply add as much send as required to sound ‘right’ to you. But with an insert effect, you should start with a fully dry signal measuring @ unity gain at the default setting, but that would mean lowering the output Volume quite a bit (around 35% to my measurements).

As long as folks are aware of the issue they can know they will likely need to make adjustments on the Volume control.
Interesting, yes. I did reproduce the OP's observation using pulverizer as an insert on default patch, which added 4db when wet and 8db when dry. I then, perhaps inaccurately, related that to my experience of my long standing "send" use of Pulverizer, which also added a few db (which I often welcome but which is, as you point out, easy to offset if needed).

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