Reason Financials 2021

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jamesa
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Post 05 Aug 2022

jam-s wrote:
05 Aug 2022
I think NI (or rather the new merger of izotope/NI/PA) or Behringer/MusicTribe could use a good DAW in their portfolio.
How about https://inmusicbrands.com?

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Aquila
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Post 05 Aug 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
05 Aug 2022
DaveyG wrote:
05 Aug 2022


That is the absolute 100% certainty in all of this. It's just a question of who, when and under what circumstances.
Maybe Bandlab should buy them. It did wonders for Cakewalk :thumbup:
Sonar and thanks for all the fish! :lol:

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avasopht
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Post 05 Aug 2022

DaveyG wrote:
05 Aug 2022
That is the absolute 100% certainty in all of this. It's just a question of who, when and under what circumstances.

And, yes, I always bounce tracks to stems early on in the process. I've been bitten before..
Please let it be won in a back alley poker game ... 🙏
---

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QVprod
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Post 05 Aug 2022

JiggeryPokery wrote:
05 Aug 2022
QVprod wrote:
05 Aug 2022
Something to also keep in mind is higher expenses as well. RS is paying to have all those packs created. That wasn’t an expense they had before R+. That plus a bad R12 release. A loss doesn’t surprise me nor alarm me. Considering the amount of content marketing they do now. They’re probably in an okay (for now) place.
Yes, they can still be in an ok place on the overall balance sheet to weather seasonal high and lows and bounce back, and I don't think anyone here has suggested in they're trouble in the short term. But near-halving income in a year. In the 2013-2019 period it was a steady rise and decline as RE's grew then peaked.

But sample pack expenditure and some videos on Instagram? That's your takeaway from that chart to explain near-halving revenue?
That's actually not what I was saying. Putting aside that Youtube videos probably cost more than Instagram ones :puf_smile: ...
I only pointed out an additional factor in profit loss. The most obvious cause of less sales would of course be the R12 launch which I mentioned. Even if it's not your belief, you know very well someone will read this as a sign of doom.

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Mistro17
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Post 05 Aug 2022

[/quote]
I can only speak for myself here. But for me, before the R12 release I was pretty pumped to upgrade. It would have been an easy sell for them. I just wanted to make sure there weren't any bugs before I pulled the trigger. Well since the release was the way it was, I waited and waited and waited. And after several months still hearing some people reporting major bugs I completely lost interest. So they definitely lost out on easy money from me.
[/quote]

I know nothing about financial language besides the basics but I feel the same about the quote above right now even though some users say they love it. Speaking for myself, I wanted to buy Reason 12 but too many issues gave me pause. And I'm still paused. Probably a lot of users are still paused. I understand this world is made of money but what good is a product if the product is only made for money, and not managed for musicians, aspiring, hobbyists and professionals to where interests grows for the creative tool? The more interest in a good product, the more money right? Seems some companies have this backwards.

And yeah, I still have my Reason 9 box with the Propellerhead logo and I'm sticking with it.

EDIT: I did grab Chord Sequenser though and I think it's one of the greatest gifts we got this year and for me it breathed more life into my Reason 11. I hope that gives a positive for 2022.
Last edited by Mistro17 on 05 Aug 2022, edited 3 times in total.

jamesa
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Post 05 Aug 2022

Ok, I contributed a bit to some FUD about Reason and I feel a little bad about that. I am about to dive into a project using the Reason DAW and I am super pumped about it as it is a really great song that I was asked to help produce. Will probably use the new Kuassa amp sim on it. I'm sure everything will be ok with RS and Reason. Bye for now everyone. :thumbup:

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Pepin
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Post 05 Aug 2022

A lot of discussion relates to existing users not upgrading, but I would also question how enticing R12 is to new users.

It's speculation, but I think Reason 9.5/10 (VST) and Reason 11 (rack plugin) both provided an initial burst of sales, since they addressed pent up demand from would-be users. That is, they had a built-in audience of people who were familiar with and interested in Reason over the years but couldn't use it because it lacked those key features.

But once that low hanging fruit is gone, you have to think about attracting users who require more convincing:
- For experienced users who've passed over Reason through version 11, why should they try Reason 12?
- For users brand new to music production, why should they try Reason 12?

Regardless of its quality, I'm not sure Reason 12 has provided a great answer to either question.
And as far as Reason+ goes, it does indeed lower the barrier to entry, but that doesn't guarantee an influx of new users. These questions still need good answers since the market is arguably saturated with comparable offers.

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guitfnky
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Post 05 Aug 2022

not really surprising. seems like there’s nowhere near the excitement for what RS are doing as there used to be, and third party REs aren’t really coming out as frequently as they had (I could be wrong here, just seems that way to me). everything’s just kind of ho-hum these days, and I think there are a voluminous number of small and medium-sized reasons why that is that any one of us could rattle off. seems like they managed to take the enormous amount of trust the Reason community had for what they were doing for granted, and here we are.

but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. they can use it and learn from it. hopefully they will.
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crimsonwarlock
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Post 06 Aug 2022

hyperdeath666 wrote:
05 Aug 2022
jam-s wrote:
05 Aug 2022
I think NI (or rather the new merger of izotope/NI/PA) or Behringer/MusicTribe could use a good DAW in their portfolio.
That might be true, but how does Reason fit into all this?
... and Behringer is already developing their own DAW, which they said will be free by the way.

madmacman
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Post 06 Aug 2022

Pepin wrote:
05 Aug 2022
- For experienced users who've passed over Reason through version 11, why should they try Reason 12?
- For users brand new to music production, why should they try Reason 12?
And don’t forget the price hike! Upgrade fee is now on the upper mark on the market. And for new customers there‘s plenty of choice for the price tag of €400. Not to mention Mac users, who get Logic as an enticing all-in-one package for half the price.

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 06 Aug 2022

madmacman wrote:
06 Aug 2022
Pepin wrote:
05 Aug 2022
- For experienced users who've passed over Reason through version 11, why should they try Reason 12?
- For users brand new to music production, why should they try Reason 12?
And don’t forget the price hike! Upgrade fee is now on the upper mark on the market. And for new customers there‘s plenty of choice for the price tag of €400. Not to mention Mac users, who get Logic as an enticing all-in-one package for half the price.
Agreed. The current price point is definitely not in line with the niche market where they still have validity. Also, if you can't compete on features (the upper bound of the market), you basically have to compete on price (the lower bound of the market). What you deliver needs to be good for the price, or the price needs to be good for what you deliver. They currently price themselves in a segment where they can't compete. It is that simple.

My bet is that if they lowered the entry price to around 300 euros and upgrades to around 75 euros, combined with marketing efforts around that, they could bring in a serious amount of new users. This goes also for the Rack Extensions; other DAWs sell their plugins at very competitive prices because they understand that it brings in customers for their DAW as well. For example, If they priced BV-X at around 50 euros, people would buy Reason to be able to use it. That is, if Reason was priced lower and all other RE's were as well.

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jam-s
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Post 06 Aug 2022

They should really start to give away a basic free version of the Reason (Rack) so the entry barrier to RE purchases is lowered. I've made a detailed suggestion on how a more modular Reason Rack and DAW could work in this post here.

electrofux
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Post 06 Aug 2022

Eddi-16 wrote:
05 Aug 2022
jappe wrote:
05 Aug 2022
Sad, but I hope and think they can come back after analyzing what went wrong.
For me - and I guess many other customers or interested people - it is the following and I ask myself, how many videos or feature request threads there should be created until they realise it:

Missing updates for workflow & sequencer updates, missing long time customer relationship trust, missing hardware controller, missing MKII Versions of old devices, missing clip launcher and performance stuff, missing markers and other small things, missing video support, missing VST3, missing DAW trust and love by supporting other DAWS with the plugin advertisement and so on...
I couldnt have worded it better. :thumbs_up:

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avasopht
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Post 06 Aug 2022

I haven't upgraded yet either.

Funnily enough, I have bought an R12 upgrade (but as a gift).

I'm just not keen on the idea of some glitch messing up a session or corrupting files. And some of their decisions have been a little questionable lately. Especially their initial communication about the launch of R12 along with the price hike, the launch of R+ (and its price) and the fact it wasn't until nearly a year after R+ was launched that R12 was reasonably stable.

In the last year, only 5 of the dozens of tracks I've made were done in Reason - though I do use it when I need to mix and did use it for a few recordings.

But my friends were uber excited about R+ and the upgrade (and they've had no glitches). Especially the latest addition to Reason. She's uber impressed with what you can do with it out of the box.

In other DAW forums, I'll often find at least one or two complaints or comments about their DAW lacking a feature that Reason has. I've seen it in the Studio One, Ableton Live, and AKAI MPC forums.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something is making me hesitant to upgrade or adopt R+. It should be an easy decision (even at £20/mo).

And at the same time, the version I'm on is more than good enough. I've got just about everything I could need.

People are willing to spend money. They're buying pricey hardware controllers. They're buying standalone hardware devices (and RS would have immediate RE support). They're spending a hot $1,000+ on sound libraries (like Komplete Ultimate). There's money to be made.
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PhillipOrdonez
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Post 06 Aug 2022

The fear of 12 instilled by a bunch on forums like these certainly didn't help. Especially after the latest update, 12 feels solid. Sure, it may not have that many features you'd pay for, but for anyone abstaining from upgrading based on bugs, they are, from my point of view overreacting.

There's two users here who haven't upgraded because of it. Image how many more out there came here and read that it is "unusable", they "ruined it", and so on, and refrain from purchasing or subscribing.

Tin foil hat on, but I reckon there's a concerted effort to hurt Reason studios. Who or why and for what purpose, I do not know.
The latest release:

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avasopht
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Post 06 Aug 2022

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
06 Aug 2022
The fear of 12 instilled by a bunch on forums like these certainly didn't help. Especially after the latest update, 12 feels solid. Sure, it may not have that many features you'd pay for, but for anyone abstaining from upgrading based on bugs, they are, from my point of view overreacting.

There's two users here who haven't upgraded because of it. Image how many more out there came here and read that it is "unusable", they "ruined it", and so on, and refrain from purchasing or subscribing.

Tin foil hat on, but I reckon there's a concerted effort to hurt Reason studios. Who or why and for what purpose, I do not know.
There are people who were still experiencing show-stopping bugs. It's incorrect to suggest they're making a concerted effort if it was, in fact, unusable for them.

And some of the glitches that remain are alarming to me. I wrote a GUI library (for an embedded device) and ported another one from OpenGL to an obscure GPU, and the type of glitches I see (based on my experience) tells me to wait.

Nothing to do with tin-foil hats or a concerted effort. We really need to stop making everything so extreme when someone has a different opinion or stance from us and accusing them of bizarre positions (like trying to hurt Reason Studios).
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PhillipOrdonez
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Post 06 Aug 2022

Not saying every complain is unfounded. Saying some are. This has been going on well before 12 was released though.

Are those prior still having showstopper issues after the latest version? Or did they trial it on release and haven't since?

Accounts like the one doing the rounds yesterday have been popping up consistently. They come regularly to speak negatively about the product. I don't know if it is true but I do think it is a concerted effort. This is why I put the tin foil hat on to say that. As a figure of speech conveying that I know what I'm about to write sounds crazy, and it might be wrong, I do not know, but I think about it. You know?
The latest release:

Popey
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Post 06 Aug 2022

I think often the more dissatisfied or dissapointed people are more vocal whilst those without issue just get on with using it. I would say i see it more on Facebook than here though.
I only trialled 12 and had no issues but can appreciate those that did would want to talk about it to raise awareness or vent.

It will be interesting to see what reason do to reverse the loss? Perhaps we will see some big offers this year as they have already had one flash sale of update price which was very reasonable.

TritoneAddiction
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Post 06 Aug 2022

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
06 Aug 2022
The fear of 12 instilled by a bunch on forums like these certainly didn't help. Especially after the latest update, 12 feels solid. Sure, it may not have that many features you'd pay for, but for anyone abstaining from upgrading based on bugs, they are, from my point of view overreacting.

There's two users here who haven't upgraded because of it. Image how many more out there came here and read that it is "unusable", they "ruined it", and so on, and refrain from purchasing or subscribing.
Well they released R12 11 months ago, almost a full year ago. If it's just recently that R12 has become "solid" I'd say that me holding out this long was justified. Getting new features is not worth it to me, if it also means getting more bugs. A hassle free environment is way more important to me than a couple of extra features. The whole "it's working for some while for others it's not working at all" isn't good enough. I'm not gonna upgrade to have it "maybe" working.

The thing is, the last time I upgraded (to R11 Suite) I had some major crippling bugs going on, to the point where Reason was pretty much unuasable. That kind of freaked me out since Reason had ALWAYS been super stable before. Now luckily RS sorted that problem out in about a week or two. But even during that relatively short amount of time it annoyed me so much that I pretty much promised myself to never upgrade right after a release again. Always let some time pass first, in case there are problems.

I think selling the unfinished R12 release was a bad move, not only because it was shady to the costumers not to tell them the state it was in, but also because most people tend to review a product right after its release. That's when there's hype and excitement. That's when youtubers get their views. That's when people start to form their opinions and tell other people about them. And since a lot of things weren't working upon release, those negative experiences/opinions are gonna take some time to shake off.

To be fair, RS has done way better lately. They've focused on sorting out the bugs, which is the most important thing. They have their shop visable again. And they've released solid REs. I just thought I should end on something positive after all the doom and gloom talk. :lol:

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 06 Aug 2022

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
06 Aug 2022
Not saying every complain is unfounded. Saying some are. This has been going on well before 12 was released though.
Popey wrote:
06 Aug 2022
I think often the more dissatisfied or dissapointed people are more vocal whilst those without issue just get on with using it. I would say i see it more on Facebook than here though.
The thing that irks me the most in this regard is that many posts about problems and bugs with R12 are made by people who also state, sometimes in the same message, that they didn't upgrade to R12. It seems a bit paradoxical to me when people complaining about bugs are not actually running the software that has the supposed bugs.

I upgraded the week when R12 came out. I'm working my whole life in software, so I expect a new version to have bugs. I also expect them to get ironed out over time (as RS is doing). I did run into a show-stopping bug with R12 once, and it was fixed in little over a week. However, actually running R12 is the only way of experiencing that it has become pretty stable again, at least for most users (who are actually using it).

So maybe there is no concerted effort, but an effort nonetheless.

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SebAudio
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Post 06 Aug 2022

We have the RS figures, not other companies’ s. Perhaps it’s the same for them. I mean low revenues.
I don’t think it has to do with the specific offer RS are making. The market is full of free very good music software (bundled with hardware audio cards or controllers). I read on an Ableton thread that people were only using the Lite version of Live 11 which was given away some months ago.
And when it’s not free, it’s very cheap. Look at Cherry Audio synths ! The last offer from gforce, the great SEM (mono) was only 37€ ! Softube, Arturia and Korg (and others) are always in sales promotions. Everybody has enough soft synths and FX to make music and fresh sounds till their death, so why acquiring yet another soft synth ? Btw, entry price for Reason is high : no free RRP, no lite version, and then the most « desirable » REs (those from RS or the ones form EKKS for example) are more expensive than VST counterparts (for instance : Parsec : 129€ is in the same price range as high regarded VSTs from U-he, TAL, Synapse, Softube, … where it’d be in the Korg (sale) price ranges)

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-008'
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Post 06 Aug 2022

JiggeryPokery wrote:
04 Aug 2022
Personally, I think the upper limit it puts on all still-paying Reason users has be well under 50k...

...Make up your own figures too! But you know, even "mostly inaccurate" speculation by definition must also be partly accurate!
https://affiliates.reasonstudios.com/

Going off of their own page I'll assume a 1/10th of that. 5001 or more (still-paying) users worldwide.

Ever the optimist, i would say they are doing great numbers for such a small userbase, It only looks like up from down here! :D

I think the answer to all of "our" (ReasonStudios, Devs, Geriatric Forum users and retirees) woes might be related to those threads that we all hate:
"name me one popular song made with Reason".

I don't know if any amount of marketing will ever work until they have a running flow of current, provable examples [person x made song z USING REASON]
AND a handful of active, prolific, record-selling, money making, reason-using artists wreaking havoc out in the wild.
Fender merely makes the Strat - but it is the Jimi's that actually sell it!
:reason: "Reason is not measured by size or height, but by principle.” -Epictetus

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avasopht
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Post 06 Aug 2022

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
06 Aug 2022
Not saying every complain is unfounded. Saying some are. This has been going on well before 12 was released though.

Are those prior still having showstopper issues after the latest version? Or did they trial it on release and haven't since?

Accounts like the one doing the rounds yesterday have been popping up consistently. They come regularly to speak negatively about the product. I don't know if it is true but I do think it is a concerted effort. This is why I put the tin foil hat on to say that. As a figure of speech conveying that I know what I'm about to write sounds crazy, and it might be wrong, I do not know, but I think about it. You know?
No, these were people who were using the most recent version of Reason each time.

The most recent update fixed a lot of them, but some people are still having issues. Some are having issues because of the GPU demands (hence the ATI driver workaround they used).

The account we saw yesterday - yeah, 100% was sus ;)
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Jac459
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Location: Singapore

Post 06 Aug 2022

Well, on the bugs experienced in Reason 12, I tend to agree that a disastrous communication has been done.
I started over music after a long break in Jan 2022, read this forum and was super scared of having a bug. It made me really hesitate buying.
The problem is that over a very small percentage of people having issues, they are super vocal and it gives impression that it is happening a lot when it is actually not at all the case.
I am not blaming anybody here, it is just 'by human design'.

Fortunately, I still decided to move forward and have been able to intensely use reason 12 in both my macbook M1 and my PC with no bug at all...

The point is that with the variety of computers, audio interface, midi interface and all, I really don't see how on earth you can produce a software with no bug at all for nobody... Especially in this course of innovation on our sector...

kitekrazy
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Post 06 Aug 2022

madmacman wrote:
06 Aug 2022
Pepin wrote:
05 Aug 2022
- For experienced users who've passed over Reason through version 11, why should they try Reason 12?
- For users brand new to music production, why should they try Reason 12?
And don’t forget the price hike! Upgrade fee is now on the upper mark on the market. And for new customers there‘s plenty of choice for the price tag of €400. Not to mention Mac users, who get Logic as an enticing all-in-one package for half the price.
Only Live's Suite upgrade is higher and also Samplitude upgrade but they usually have 2 extra products thrown in.
Casual users probably don't for over $199 for the upgrade. I'm not.

I wonder how many of the larger developers are also not making money with the way the world economy is. I wonder if the same is for instrument manufacturers. Guitar Center and Sam Ash aren't what they use to be.

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