Ring Mod Sidechain

[valankar]

Hi all,

Recently I learned about ring mod sidechain, mentioned in these videos:

Decided to do a deeper dive into it in these videos in case anyone interested:

Enjoy.

[Paralytik]

Wow, this is pretty insane. I've never heard about this technique before.

[valankar]

It really has been a game-changer for me. Previously kicks might cause over 0db peaks with normal sidechaining, but with ring mod sidechaining those can peak at -4, -5 db. And it actually doesn't sound bad.

It definitely changes the way I mix though, as previously I would lower those kicks, or apply clipping, etc. So you really need to listen a lot more closely and not rely too much on metering (maybe for the better).

[orthodox]

Having seen that, I just thought of another technique that I can implement with compressors I have. The idea is to ring-modulate the kick with itself or "square" it in order to get uni-polar "rectified" signal and then use it to ring-mod the ducking target.

[selig]

Still the cleanest non distorting side chain I've come up with is cross fader. If the goal is to not raise the peak level while also not distorting the waveform in any way, it's the most accurate/surgical (and foolproof) way to accomplish this.

[valankar]

Hi all,

I did a newer video that is more Reaper focused, but can be applied to other DAWs. Just wanted to showcase ringmod sidechain with something a bit more musical. Hope its useful:

Still the cleanest non distorting side chain I've come up with is cross fader.

When I thought about this more, this is essentially what ringmod sidechain is doing, but at the sample level.

[selig]

Hi all,

I did a newer video that is more Reaper focused, but can be applied to other DAWs. Just wanted to showcase ringmod sidechain with something a bit more musical. Hope its useful:

Still the cleanest non distorting side chain I've come up with is cross fader.

When I thought about this more, this is essentially what ringmod sidechain is doing, but at the sample level.

Not sure I follow - the distortion caused by ring mod would always be audible, no? If you duck a sine wave with ring mod and listen to the results you will hear additional harmonics (distortion) being generated, right? You should hear the kick modulating the bass/sine easily if I’m not mistaken, which is often masked a bit when using complex waveforms.
The examples I’ve see use very bright bass tracks which would mask any distortion, so it’s hard to tell. Do you have a moment (and the motivation) to try RM ducking on a sine/sub bass to hear how much distortion is imparted on the bass signal?

OTOH, using a crossfader means you can only hear one or the other - and even if you DID hear both they would be reduced by 6 dB by the pan law, which is more than enough to compensate for the 6 dB max increase when two sounds play together. Meaning, there is no case where you can INCREASE gain with this setup no matter what you do, which is the goal of ducking, right?And you won’t hear distortion this way either since you’re not using audio rate modulation on the signals - you’re just crossfading between two signals.
So while the crossfade method is not ‘perfect’, it’s the closest thing to perfect that I’m aware of since you automatically achieve your ‘gain control’ goals no matter the setting. Plus, it requires no real calibration except to be sure you send enough CV signal to fully crossfade with each kick which is easy to check if you meter the kick to make sure it’s hitting the same level as before adding this to the equation. Hopefully I’m making sense, and surely someone else must have thought of doing it this way?

[valankar]

Not sure I follow - the distortion caused by ring mod would always be audible, no? If you duck a sine wave with ring mod and listen to the results you will hear additional harmonics (distortion) being generated, right? You should hear the kick modulating the bass/sine easily if I’m not mistaken, which is often masked a bit when using complex waveforms.
The examples I’ve see use very bright bass tracks which would mask any distortion, so it’s hard to tell. Do you have a moment (and the motivation) to try RM ducking on a sine/sub bass to hear how much distortion is imparted on the bass signal?

OTOH, using a crossfader means you can only hear one or the other - and even if you DID hear both they would be reduced by 6 dB by the pan law, which is more than enough to compensate for the 6 dB max increase when two sounds play together. Meaning, there is no case where you can INCREASE gain with this setup no matter what you do, which is the goal of ducking, right?And you won’t hear distortion this way either since you’re not using audio rate modulation on the signals - you’re just crossfading between two signals.
So while the crossfade method is not ‘perfect’, it’s the closest thing to perfect that I’m aware of since you automatically achieve your ‘gain control’ goals no matter the setting. Plus, it requires no real calibration except to be sure you send enough CV signal to fully crossfade with each kick which is easy to check if you meter the kick to make sure it’s hitting the same level as before adding this to the equation. Hopefully I’m making sense, and surely someone else must have thought of doing it this way?

Yes you are right. I was originally thinking ringmod sidechain was like moving a crossfader very fast, but instead it is like a compressor with extremely fast/instant attack and release. There is definitely a not-so-pleasant distortion (with a sine wave, and also anything else), which I guess is expected. It sounds similar to a compressor setup that way.

The crossfader method does seem the better route. I've seen a few videos where people merge kick and bass samples in this way in the timeline, with crossfading in the generated sample. I haven't seen anyone using a plugin. Perhaps in some DAWs it is not sample-accurate to do that with automation. But I could imagine an LFOtool-like device that instead of ducking according to the envelope, it crossfades between the input and sidechain.

[valankar]

Here is a video that is essentially about doing the crossfading method, except they use 2 lfo plugins with inverse shapes:

[selig]

Here is a video that is essentially about doing the crossfading method, except they use 2 lfo plugins with inverse shapes:

I guess the main difference would be you can still ‘miss’ transients if you’re not aggressive enough and precise enough, meaning both can still hit at the same time if you’re not careful with the setup. Whereas with a crossfader it is impossible to EVER have both play at the same time and increase level because even if you are at the 50% point on the crossfader, the crossfade curve ensures the overall level doesn’t increase - like magic!