"I use Reason" reaction

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selig
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Post 14 Jan 2022

The good news is ‘old school’ gear tends to come back around over time…
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jamespember
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Young people aren't dumb anybody with common sense and with a general understanding of how music software works will come to that conclusion. The look of confusion on her face when dude said "Reason" speaks volumes of the perception young producers have of Reason. It's just facts that Reason is behind the competition and not appealing to the youth of Trap producers which is a billion dollar genre. Many do both hip hop and Trap and don't touch Reason! RS or PH throughout since Reason inception has continued to ignore this genre of music makers and their growth has been stagnant at best. I'm 49 I bet there are a gazillion young trap producers from 15 yrs old to 25 alone providing enough money to Image line that they give free updates for life. I'm a hating azz old head but the youth are the future and if they don't think you're cool you're dead as a company.



Chi-Individual wrote:
14 Jan 2022


This is hilarious. The reaction is at 2:09 if the video is acting up. But it seems that some of the youngins feel like Reason is something ol' school like an MPC 2000XL or ASR10 or something. Perception with the youth as far as Reason being a modern, up-to-date DAW is def an issue. But I have no idea how that can be changed.
I'm not here to get overly defensive but Reason producers won 3 Grammy's in the hip hop genre this year... so I'm not sure we're as behind and not appealing to young beatmakers as you think :) But yes, FL does very well in that market for sure.

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 14 Jan 2022

jamespember wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I'm not here to get overly defensive but Reason producers won 3 Grammy's in the hip hop genre this year... so I'm not sure we're as behind and not appealing to young beatmakers as you think :)
It wouldn't surprise me if (young) producers that use Reason are less vocal about it, and maybe even see it as their 'secret weapon'.

Chi-Individual
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
It's just facts that Reason is behind the competition and not appealing to the youth of Trap producers which is a billion dollar genre. Many do both hip hop and Trap and don't touch Reason! RS or PH throughout since Reason inception has continued to ignore this genre of music makers and their growth has been stagnant at best.
That last statement isn't entirely true. As far as trap goes, like it was stated earlier in the thread, this is the Cracked Version generation and that usually means they use FL. Also, Reason, Live, and FL started out and continue to mainly support Electronic music. They weren't/aren't really targeting Rock, Jazz, Hip Hop, Acoustic, Orchestral etc... The reason, no pun intended, that most people in other genres started using those DAWs was when someone who had a cracked version gave it to them or when someone with a name that they were fans of figured out how to make it work for that genre.

The first person I can think of is 9th Wonder. I'm 42 and I can say that I remember Pro Tools with the firewire racks was the only DAW folks I knew were using, if they could afford it. Other than that it was still all hardware like the MPC and DATs. But once Little Brother dropped their first album it was clear that Fruity Loops was a viable option for even a sample based genre with some workarounds. Then he plastered all over every music publication that cared about hip hop talking about how he used FL on Jay-Z's album. Next thing I knew, everyone, including me, had that at the time $100 program.

Another is Hanz Zimmer. He is credited with being the cause for many orchestral producers moving over to Cubase from Pro Tools.

The name matters. Kanye was once credited with an uptick in sales of hardware samplers because people wanted his sound. J Dilla with the MPC 2000XL etc.

If you make Trap, which is the hot thing now, of course up and coming producers who are fans of your sound will want what you work with. So it makes sense that if you have said number of producers, esp in the Youtube/TikTok/IG era, where they can now see how you make your money with said DAW then it will be more popular than another DAW.

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Post 14 Jan 2022

10-4 How old were the producers?



jamespember wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Young people aren't dumb anybody with common sense and with a general understanding of how music software works will come to that conclusion. The look of confusion on her face when dude said "Reason" speaks volumes of the perception young producers have of Reason. It's just facts that Reason is behind the competition and not appealing to the youth of Trap producers which is a billion dollar genre. Many do both hip hop and Trap and don't touch Reason! RS or PH throughout since Reason inception has continued to ignore this genre of music makers and their growth has been stagnant at best. I'm 49 I bet there are a gazillion young trap producers from 15 yrs old to 25 alone providing enough money to Image line that they give free updates for life. I'm a hating azz old head but the youth are the future and if they don't think you're cool you're dead as a company.




I'm not here to get overly defensive but Reason producers won 3 Grammy's in the hip hop genre this year... so I'm not sure we're as behind and not appealing to young beatmakers as you think :) But yes, FL does very well in that market for sure.

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Post 14 Jan 2022

Trap is still a thing? 😱
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Goriila Texas
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Do you listen to "Urban" radio???


PhillipOrdonez wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Trap is still a thing? 😱

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rcbuse
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Chi-Individual wrote:
14 Jan 2022


This is hilarious. The reaction is at 2:09 if the video is acting up. But it seems that some of the youngins feel like Reason is something ol' school like an MPC 2000XL or ASR10 or something. Perception with the youth as far as Reason being a modern, up-to-date DAW is def an issue. But I have no idea how that can be changed.
I think people's initial impression of software is very hard to change. For anyone that's been around a while, Fruity Loops pre-dates Reason by like 2 years, back when rebirth was all the rage. Whenever anyone says they use FL, my mind snaps back to that initial 20-year-ago impression of just some tiny sample based drum machine + mixer running on my pentium II. I've never went back to revisit FL so my mental image hasn't updated even though I know progress has been made. I would be willing to bet the availability of pirated copies has something to do with this as well. Propellerheads locked that down tight after version 4, so for 15 years, any warez kid's impression was stuck at Reason 4. Maybe there will be a shift now that 12 is out in the wild.

Chi-Individual
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Post 14 Jan 2022

rcbuse wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Whenever anyone says they use FL, my mind snaps back to that initial 20-year-ago impression of just some tiny sample based drum machine + mixer running on my pentium II. I've never went back to revisit FL so my mental image hasn't updated even though I know progress has been made. Propellerheads locked that down tight after version 4, so for 15 years, any warez kid's impression was stuck at Reason 4.
When I read this I realized I have the same issue and I own FL. But unless I see it on YouTube or someone's computer, when I hear Fruity Loops or FL, I have the same mental image of the old Fruity Loops 2. It's weird how you retain an old mental image since you don't work with it.

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Creativemind
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Young people aren't dumb anybody with common sense and with a general understanding of how music software works will come to that conclusion. The look of confusion on her face when dude said "Reason" speaks volumes of the perception young producers have of Reason. It's just facts that Reason is behind the competition and not appealing to the youth of Trap producers which is a billion dollar genre. Many do both hip hop and Trap and don't touch Reason! RS or PH throughout since Reason inception has continued to ignore this genre of music makers and their growth has been stagnant at best. I'm 49 I bet there are a gazillion young trap producers from 15 yrs old to 25 alone providing enough money to Image line that they give free updates for life. I'm a hating azz old head but the youth are the future and if they don't think you're cool you're dead as a company.
Yeah I had a similar reaction at Uni in 2016 when I used Reason on my laptop. People had moved on. Every student will all know and say that what tools you use don't matter, it's the end result but Reason being so far behind the times just puts people off regardless and I think with Pro Tools and Logic being industry standard (at least in the U.K) and an element of people use what the majority use. I'd say Logic is by far the most popular daw amongst students and producers personally and FL Studio gets a similar reaction to be honest as it also has a very unconventional workflow. I was using it a few years ago and once you wrap your head around it, FL is powerful. The piano roll is second to non and some of the instruments - Sytrus, Harmour and the new FLEX are outstanding in what I would say, "BIG" sounds. Transistor Bass is up there as a 303 emulation too.

Back to Reason though, I think it's main problem is as Giles (Selig) has touched upon before in other threads, it's how things in Reason don't always have consistency such as being able to left click and drag on the steps in ReDrum but you can't do the same with adding notes or muting in the midi editor, also what I mentioned earlier on in the thread with the 3 screens not speaking to each other, it's like no-one in the company speaks to each other sometimes or things to have uniformity, not being able to customise it or create your own shortcuts too to tailor it to your way of working let's it down, things being limited all the time (limited sends, only get 8 projects in your project history, only 4 bands on the Main Mixer EQ to name 3) and one of my bug bears - no linked clips and automation which I'll keep repeating and blocks are similar but not the same thing.

Another thing RS need to change is this - build it, test it, release it and then (with the exception of the RV7000, Dr.Octo.Rex and Europa) just leave it never to be updated or improved again. Mattias however, did mention in I think the Mimic livestream (oh they added pitch detection in that too after release) that they were gonna move away from that philosophy.
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Goriila Texas
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Post 14 Jan 2022

:thumbup:


Creativemind wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Young people aren't dumb anybody with common sense and with a general understanding of how music software works will come to that conclusion. The look of confusion on her face when dude said "Reason" speaks volumes of the perception young producers have of Reason. It's just facts that Reason is behind the competition and not appealing to the youth of Trap producers which is a billion dollar genre. Many do both hip hop and Trap and don't touch Reason! RS or PH throughout since Reason inception has continued to ignore this genre of music makers and their growth has been stagnant at best. I'm 49 I bet there are a gazillion young trap producers from 15 yrs old to 25 alone providing enough money to Image line that they give free updates for life. I'm a hating azz old head but the youth are the future and if they don't think you're cool you're dead as a company.
Yeah I had a similar reaction at Uni in 2016 when I used Reason on my laptop. People had moved on. Every student will all know and say that what tools you use don't matter, it's the end result but Reason being so far behind the times just puts people off regardless and I think with Pro Tools and Logic being industry standard (at least in the U.K) and an element of people use what the majority use. I'd say Logic is by far the most popular daw amongst students and producers personally and FL Studio gets a similar reaction to be honest as it also has a very unconventional workflow. I was using it a few years ago and once you wrap your head around it, FL is powerful. The piano roll is second to non and some of the instruments - Sytrus, Harmour and the new FLEX are outstanding in what I would say, "BIG" sounds. Transistor Bass is up there as a 303 emulation too.

Back to Reason though, I think it's main problem is as Giles (Selig) has touched upon before in other threads, it's how things in Reason don't always have consistency such as being able to left click and drag on the steps in ReDrum but you can't do the same with adding notes or muting in the midi editor, also what I mentioned earlier on in the thread with the 3 screens not speaking to each other, it's like no-one in the company speaks to each other sometimes or things to have uniformity, not being able to customise it or create your own shortcuts too to tailor it to your way of working let's it down, things being limited all the time (limited sends, only get 8 projects in your project history, only 4 bands on the Main Mixer EQ to name 3) and one of my bug bears - no linked clips and automation which I'll keep repeating and blocks are similar but not the same thing.

Another thing RS need to change is this - build it, test it, release it and then (with the exception of the RV7000, Dr.Octo.Rex and Europa) just leave it never to be updated or improved again. Mattias however, did mention in I think the Mimic livestream (oh they added pitch detection in that too after release) that they were gonna move away from that philosophy.

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QVprod
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Post 14 Jan 2022

The hilarious thing... I started with FL Studio. Learned about Reason in 2008, never looked back... and I use other DAWs (but not FL). I'd consider myself young still (31).

This is all about preference and nothing to do with age of users or a product being behind times. Reason has been getting this reaction for as long as I can remember. People use whatever is taught to them and rarely ever deviate or try new things. As far as Trap being dominated for FL, it's likely because the step sequencer is the core of the program. The hi-hat rolls were far easier to do. Probably also helps that Soulja Boy made a hit with the most basic beat ever made in FL Studio.

I briefly worked with Justin Love on a show a few years back and he (no pun intended) loves Reason - He's in his mid 20s.

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selig
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Post 14 Jan 2022

rcbuse wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I think people's initial impression of software is very hard to change.
That may be true, for better or for worse. Hardware opinions, OTOH change all the time. First time I sat with an 808 in 1984 or so I laughed at how weak and wimpy it sounded compared to Linn and DMX or even Simmons of the same era. FF only a few years later, and the 808 is on the way to becoming the most well known and arguably hardest hitting drum machine of all time. I'm sure I couldn't have been the only one to dismiss the 808 when it was released, only to do a total 180 only a few years later!
I would imagine a similar thing happening to the 303…so why not software? Software changes, hardware not so much, so you'd think opinions of software would 'update' with the program, but I haven't see it work for software like with hardware…
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Eddi-16
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Post 14 Jan 2022

I think it is because there are so many basic things still missing (like markers, mixer/track folders, updated little things in already existing devices ans so on, all that stuff that causes a lot of frustration in every forum).
Nobody, even here, knows why they are not want to update the sequencer & software and "ruin" their reputation on purpose years ago until now.

It feels a bit like they hold back Reasons further rising on purpose.

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avasopht
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Eddi-16 wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I think it is because there are so many basic things still missing (like markers, mixer/track folders, updated little things in already existing devices ans so on, all that stuff that causes a lot of frustration in every forum).
Nobody, even here, knows why they are not want to update the sequencer & software and "ruin" their reputation on purpose years ago until now.

It feels a bit like they hold back Reasons further rising on purpose.
Is it really that though?

Doesn't quite fit, given those wouldn't prevent anyone from making a hit song in Reason.

If on the other hand the reaction was more like, "yeah, but it's a shame there's no track markers." Those who have the mental image of it lacking the ability to be suitable for commercial music are unlikely to gained that point of view through the mere lacking of track markers ;)
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rcbuse
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Post 14 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
14 Jan 2022

That may be true, for better or for worse. Hardware opinions, OTOH change all the time. First time I sat with an 808 in 1984 or so I laughed at how weak and wimpy it sounded compared to Linn and DMX or even Simmons of the same era. FF only a few years later, and the 808 is on the way to becoming the most well known and arguably hardest hitting drum machine of all time. I'm sure I couldn't have been the only one to dismiss the 808 when it was released, only to do a total 180 only a few years later!
I would imagine a similar thing happening to the 303…so why not software? Software changes, hardware not so much, so you'd think opinions of software would 'update' with the program, but I haven't see it work for software like with hardware…
I know exactly what you mean. I sold a ton of hardware I wish I hadn't because at the time I thought it was crap. It wasn't crap, I was just using it poorly. But then again, I might get it back and remember what pain in the ass the MIDI to audio loop is and you can't right-click "bounce in place" real hardware.

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DaveyG
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Post 14 Jan 2022

rcbuse wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I know exactly what you mean. I sold a ton of hardware I wish I hadn't because at the time I thought it was crap. It wasn't crap, I was just using it poorly. But then again, I might get it back and remember what pain in the ass the MIDI to audio loop is and you can't right-click "bounce in place" real hardware.
My past hardware sales reads like a who's who of 90's synths. Some of those synths come up on eBay for 4 or 5 times the original retail price and about 10 times what I sold them for. But, yes, each and every one had their quirks. Crappy user interfaces, quirky MIDI implementations, tiny cryptic displays, and some truly dreadful built-in digital effects. But I wish I still had them.

And, yes, compared to Reason or any other DAW just getting them connected up could be a right pain. Are the outputs balanced or unbalanced? Is the output level +4dBu "Pro" or -10 dBV "Consumer"? Now, how do I sync the tempos? Ah, here we go. But, wait, where is that hum coming from? etc etc. :lol:

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selig
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Post 14 Jan 2022

avasopht wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Is it really that though?

Doesn't quite fit, given those wouldn't prevent anyone from making a hit song in Reason.

If on the other hand the reaction was more like, "yeah, but it's a shame there's no track markers." Those who have the mental image of it lacking the ability to be suitable for commercial music are unlikely to gained that point of view through the mere lacking of track markers ;)
I wonder - what if it's because Reason has never updated the legacy devices, and folks still see those in Reason and assume the 'Reason sound' is still based on those devices? If you still think of Reason as Subtractor and ReDrum, and remember some of the less than inspiring REX loops, you may never change your opinion of Reason.
If OTOH, Reason had UPDATED all of the early synths instead of just introducing new ones, those options may have changed? No idea here, just speculating because Reason would have lost fully backwards compatibility if it has gone down that road (which one could argue it did anyway with Line 6s departure etc).

Now we find ourselves in an interesting time where we have far more than enough tools to get the job done x10 compared to only a few years ago. How many more analog synths do we need, how many more classic compressors or EQs? I'm all for new tools, but I'd also like to see more improvements to the existing tools (sequencer being one of the tools that needs improvements IMO) rather than a steady stream of new devices - though I'm guessing new devices bring more $$ than updated old devices (and I'm quite happy with some of the new stuff so I'm well aware I'm literally contradicting myself all over the place here). Food for thought, if anyone is hungry…
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Eddi-16 wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I think it is because there are so many basic things still missing (like markers, mixer/track folders, updated little things in already existing devices ans so on, all that stuff that causes a lot of frustration in every forum).
Nobody, even here, knows why they are not want to update the sequencer & software and "ruin" their reputation on purpose years ago until now.

It feels a bit like they hold back Reasons further rising on purpose.


I agree here.

I understand track folders may be hard given the rack paradigm but it could be done I reckon.
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PhillipOrdonez
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Post 14 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
14 Jan 2022
rcbuse wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I think people's initial impression of software is very hard to change.
That may be true, for better or for worse. Hardware opinions, OTOH change all the time. First time I sat with an 808 in 1984 or so I laughed at how weak and wimpy it sounded compared to Linn and DMX or even Simmons of the same era. FF only a few years later, and the 808 is on the way to becoming the most well known and arguably hardest hitting drum machine of all time. I'm sure I couldn't have been the only one to dismiss the 808 when it was released, only to do a total 180 only a few years later!
I would imagine a similar thing happening to the 303…so why not software? Software changes, hardware not so much, so you'd think opinions of software would 'update' with the program, but I haven't see it work for software like with hardware…
It's comparing apples to oranges cause those devices are instruments. Reason has instruments but it isn't an instrument.

The reason opinions on hardware change is because instruments like those are attached to specific sounds and genres, whereas a daw is sound or genre agnostic. You can't make authentic classical music with an 808, as you can't make authentic hip hop drums with a xylophone. You can make both in Reason or any daw, therefore opinions on daw software can't change along with trends. With the exception of FL studio, apparently, for most people, not me, I still think of it as a toy, even though I know it is a well capable and professional software.
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Post 15 Jan 2022

Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
10-4 How old were the producers?
My thoughts exactly. It’s often surprising what kind of people are doing the programming behind certain acts.
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QVprod
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Post 15 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
15 Jan 2022
Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
10-4 How old were the producers?
My thoughts exactly. It’s often surprising what kind of people are doing the programming behind certain acts.
Not sure why this would matter. The producer making a track in Reason has no business influence on a song getting a Grammy. Only that the track was quality enough to be used for the artist. Nonetheless, these aren’t “old” producers. RS posts these things on social media quite a bit.

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Post 15 Jan 2022

You noticed he didn't answer the question too huh :puf_bigsmile:


plaamook wrote:
15 Jan 2022
Goriila Texas wrote:
14 Jan 2022
10-4 How old were the producers?
My thoughts exactly. It’s often surprising what kind of people are doing the programming behind certain acts.

Goriila Texas
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Post 15 Jan 2022

Let's not deflect from the point I was making about young people who make Trap music don't find this software appealing and this company historically has catered to EDM musicians while ignoring all other genre's. I would find it hard to believe any young person not doing EDM would find this DAW innovative, intuitive or inspiring.

Nobody cares about how other people get it done in Reason, we are naturally selfish beings that only care how things affect us. If the workflow is garbage to me that's all I care about and that's most people.



QVprod wrote:
15 Jan 2022
plaamook wrote:
15 Jan 2022


My thoughts exactly. It’s often surprising what kind of people are doing the programming behind certain acts.
Not sure why this would matter. The producer making a track in Reason has no business influence on a song getting a Grammy. Only that the track was quality enough to be used for the artist. Nonetheless, these aren’t “old” producers. RS posts these things on social media quite a bit.

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Post 15 Jan 2022

I just thought it was an interesting question.
Reason is a hardware emulator that’s trying to jump the fence. That older producers who started on hardware found reason makes loads of sense.
But is it so appealing to kids who never saw the hardware?
I got on board by pure chance. I’ve got no hardware history myself.

All I know is reason seems laughable to many people and although I love it I can see why.
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