Recycle 3.0 when?

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Catblack
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Post 13 Jan 2022

EnochLight wrote:
13 Jan 2022
This is a QOL issue that absolutely needs to be fixed, as many users have years and years of REX library files that they can’t properly import into Mimic without going through workflow killing workarounds.
I really hope Reason Studios is reading this thread.

Why isn't Rex import in the RE sdk?

Just this week I bought another hardware sampler and rearranged my eurorack to have all 4 I have next to each other. And mainly so I can get old sounds from my Rex files into the samplers via export using Recycle. Thankfully Recycle has it's export options.

I wish there was more widespread support for the Rex format. I would buy any hardware that supported it.
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EnochLight
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Post 13 Jan 2022

Catblack wrote:
13 Jan 2022
I really hope Reason Studios is reading this thread.
Same!
Catblack wrote:
13 Jan 2022
Why isn't Rex import in the RE sdk?
Probably the same reason why we don't have any improvements to Reason DAW's sequencer in version 12 yet: they're a small dev team with limited resources that have to focus on the things that will offer the greatest return in the quickest way possible. That said, I'll play devil's advocate with my own statement, in that the RE SDK has supported user sampling for many years now and several Reason versions. I'm at a loss why REX import wasn't implemented yet, though.
Catblack wrote:
13 Jan 2022
I wish there was more widespread support for the Rex format. I would buy any hardware that supported it.
Personally I think the REX format has peaked - like a long time ago - and is on a steady decline. If it was still widely supported and a market hunger for REX files existed, I would imagine that we would have seen ReCycle updated and constantly kept in the development loop. But it's been pretty much all but dormant for many, many years. That suggests it's not a big money maker and industry support has waned. Myself, I haven't bought REX file libraries in many years (close to 10). Most apps I use these days can do slicing on their own.
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npinero1
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Post 13 Jan 2022

I hope there is an update. The Bounce to REX algorithm seems better at capturing transients than the Audio to Midi function. I use the Bounce to REX function all the time to get my own grooves from recordings of my guitar/bass playing because it seems to capture more slices than Audio to MIDI.

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kuhliloach
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Post 13 Jan 2022

This should be part of the DAW not a separate app. I've never had any interest in owning any version of this.

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DaveyG
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Catblack wrote:
13 Jan 2022
I wish there was more widespread support for the Rex format. I would buy any hardware that supported it.
There are quite a few DAWs and audio editors that support REX but I've never heard of hardware supporting it. It's still the only widespread file format for sliced audio and, yes, it is embarrassing for RS that Mimic does not support it!

Way back when it was introduced it had another huge advantage over WAV - the lossless compression. In the days when disk space was at a premium a REX file was typically half the size of the equivalent WAV file with no loss of quality. In these current times when a single Kontakt library can exceed 100GB saving a few KB in an audio loop does not seem to matter so much. :puf_smile:

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plaamook
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Since Recycle was invented and updated there have been some pretty big leaps in stretch/pitch algorithms. I'll bet the stretch function could be given a serious polish by now. I'd love to see that actually. New stretch function dedicated to dealing with impact tails.

In fact that's the single problem with the (not quite) integrated slice function in Reason. No stretch. That's the only reason I still own Recycle.
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ScuzzyEye
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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Since Recycle was invented and updated there have been some pretty big leaps in stretch/pitch algorithms. I'll bet the stretch function could be given a serious polish by now. I'd love to see that actually. New stretch function dedicated to dealing with impact tails.
The stretch is applied during playback, not while finding slice points. Maybe that's the point you were making. But yes, if REX loading was added to the RE SDK, then any developer could try their own methods for handling slices and stretching the audio between them. We'd likely see some new ideas applied to the format.

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plaamook
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Post 14 Jan 2022

ScuzzyEye wrote:
14 Jan 2022
plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Since Recycle was invented and updated there have been some pretty big leaps in stretch/pitch algorithms. I'll bet the stretch function could be given a serious polish by now. I'd love to see that actually. New stretch function dedicated to dealing with impact tails.
The stretch is applied during playback, not while finding slice points. Maybe that's the point you were making. But yes, if REX loading was added to the RE SDK, then any developer could try their own methods for handling slices and stretching the audio between them. We'd likely see some new ideas applied to the format.
No, what I mean is that when you slice a sample up in Recycle you can set the stretch function to fill in and fade out each slice for very slow playback of the loop. This in't added afterwards during playback, it's actually altering each slice/sample and is fixed on exporting the REX file.
It's a great function but it's a bit clunky and perhaps dated.
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ScuzzyEye
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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
No, what I mean is that when you slice a sample up in Recycle you can set the stretch function to fill in and fade out each slice for very slow playback of the loop. This in't added afterwards during playback, it's actually altering each slice/sample and is fixed on exporting the REX file.
It's a great function but it's a bit clunky and perhaps dated.
I wish I had good documentation on what's actually contained in the REX file. It was my understanding that it's basically the original PCM audio, just like a WAV file, with the addition of metadata about how to play that wave back. The stretch type is just a request, and doesn't actually alter the audio at time of saving. It's then interpreted by the player that does the interpolation and cross-fading based on playback speed, and what slice(s) is being played/looped. Then all this data and metadata is losslessly compressed together.

EDIT: Though, when using the official playback library, all of this processing is hidden from the program. So the requested stretch type is the only one that will be used, and the developer of the audio software can't experiment themselves. So we really do need a Recycle 3 / REX3 SDK to either allow lower level access, or add more stretch types.

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plaamook
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Post 14 Jan 2022

ScuzzyEye wrote:
14 Jan 2022
plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
No, what I mean is that when you slice a sample up in Recycle you can set the stretch function to fill in and fade out each slice for very slow playback of the loop. This in't added afterwards during playback, it's actually altering each slice/sample and is fixed on exporting the REX file.
It's a great function but it's a bit clunky and perhaps dated.
I wish I had good documentation on what's actually contained in the REX file. It was my understanding that it's basically the original PCM audio, just like a WAV file, with the addition of metadata about how to play that wave back. The stretch type is just a request, and doesn't actually alter the audio at time of saving. It's then interpreted by the player that does the interpolation and cross-fading based on playback speed, and what slice(s) is being played/looped. Then all this data and metadata is losslessly compressed together.

EDIT: Though, when using the official playback library, all of this processing is hidden from the program. So the requested stretch type is the only one that will be used, and the developer of the audio software can't experiment themselves. So we really do need a Recycle 3 / REX3 SDK to either allow lower level access, or add more stretch types.
But the way I use it, I wack the Recycle stretch way up on whatever sliced up sample, save it as a .rex file, load into NNXT for playback rather than Dr.Rex.
You can hear that weird Recycle stretching being played back in NNXT which has no stretch capabilities, so I think there's something else going on there other than a direction to the sampler itself.
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DaveyG
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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
ScuzzyEye wrote:
14 Jan 2022


I wish I had good documentation on what's actually contained in the REX file. It was my understanding that it's basically the original PCM audio, just like a WAV file, with the addition of metadata about how to play that wave back. The stretch type is just a request, and doesn't actually alter the audio at time of saving. It's then interpreted by the player that does the interpolation and cross-fading based on playback speed, and what slice(s) is being played/looped. Then all this data and metadata is losslessly compressed together.

EDIT: Though, when using the official playback library, all of this processing is hidden from the program. So the requested stretch type is the only one that will be used, and the developer of the audio software can't experiment themselves. So we really do need a Recycle 3 / REX3 SDK to either allow lower level access, or add more stretch types.
But the way I use it, I wack the Recycle stretch way up on whatever sliced up sample, save it as a .rex file, load into NNXT for playback rather than Dr.Rex.
You can hear that weird Recycle stretching being played back in NNXT which has no stretch capabilities, so I think there's something else going on there other than a direction to the sampler itself.
Stretch is not timestretch as you know it. It just extends the decay part of a slice and is non-destructive. It's applied when a REX file is loaded.

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EnochLight
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Post 14 Jan 2022

At this point, I truly feel ReCycle - as a standalone app - should just be folded into Reason and be offered to anyone and everyone who purchases (or subscribes) to Reason. I seriously can't imagine many people buy ReCycle as a standalone app these days, so just role it into the flagship app and call it a day. Even if it shows up as a "pop-up" window, I don't care.
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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
But the way I use it, I wack the Recycle stretch way up on whatever sliced up sample, save it as a .rex file, load into NNXT for playback rather than Dr.Rex.
You can hear that weird Recycle stretching being played back in NNXT which has no stretch capabilities, so I think there's something else going on there other than a direction to the sampler itself.
I made my edit after I re-read the REX SDK documentation again. I don't think that SDK is available without an agreement with RS, so I don't want to go into too many of the details. Let's say the answer is somewhere between my initial recall, and your observation. I don't believe the audio is stretched in the file, but it is stretched when its handed to NNXT. :)

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Post 14 Jan 2022

Something similar to Akai's "sample tail" extension on the current-gen MPC and Force, I think.
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Sure. It predates what we think of a granular time stretching, but that’s why I originally posted about this. We’ve got all sorts of clever stuff to use now.
Or not as the case may be.

Anyway I’m not at my como so can’t check this but what happens if you load a Rex slice into the sequencer? I’d it stretched? If so is the sequencer also being told to do...what?
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Rex files report metadata to Studio One and tell it it's tempo so Rex files are stretched to tempo this is what makes the format so valuable because not all wave files contain that info. Rex would be the standard for Kontakt instruments if PH had kept up with the times and updated it. Boo's and company were genius with innovation but didn't push it to limits. I was young when most things they developed came out and now looking it they were ahead of their time. I bet Re rack extension tech would be 10 times better than Vst if RS put the money behind it.


plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Sure. It predates what we think of a granular time stretching, but that’s why I originally posted about this. We’ve got all sorts of clever stuff to use now.
Or not as the case may be.

Anyway I’m not at my como so can’t check this but what happens if you load a Rex slice into the sequencer? I’d it stretched? If so is the sequencer also being told to do...what?

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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Anyway I’m not at my como so can’t check this but what happens if you load a Rex slice into the sequencer? I’d it stretched? If so is the sequencer also being told to do...what?
What I was saying about wishing I knew the actual contents of a REX file would be, 1. so I could actually answer question about how it works, but 2. it's a completely proprietary format, and anyone who loads a REX is using exactly the same library. That's why you see files behaving the same in different devices/programs. The program hands a REX file to the library along with some information about how its going to be played (e.g. tempo). Then the library tells the program some information about the loaded file. Once a few more details are figured out, the program says, "give me the audio", and the REX library passes over some to match what the two have agreed upon.

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DaveyG
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Post 14 Jan 2022

ScuzzyEye wrote:
14 Jan 2022
plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Anyway I’m not at my como so can’t check this but what happens if you load a Rex slice into the sequencer? I’d it stretched? If so is the sequencer also being told to do...what?
What I was saying about wishing I knew the actual contents of a REX file would be, 1. so I could actually answer question about how it works, but 2. it's a completely proprietary format, and anyone who loads a REX is using exactly the same library. That's why you see files behaving the same in different devices/programs. The program hands a REX file to the library along with some information about how its going to be played (e.g. tempo). Then the library tells the program some information about the loaded file. Once a few more details are figured out, the program says, "give me the audio", and the REX library passes over some to match what the two have agreed upon.
I RTFM'd so you didn't have to. Page 63, bottom right:

http://cdn.propellerheads.se/download/f ... Manual.pdf

Interesting that REX1 is so different from REX2 in this regard.

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Post 14 Jan 2022

DaveyG wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I RTFM'd so you didn't have to. Page 63, bottom right:

http://cdn.propellerheads.se/download/f ... Manual.pdf

Interesting that REX1 is so different from REX2 in this regard.
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Post 14 Jan 2022

I was correct.
It’s written into the file. Destructive like.
Right.
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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I was correct.
It’s written into the file. Destructive like.
Right.
With ReCycle 1.0, that changed to non-destructive in ReCycle 2.0 and REX2.

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Post 14 Jan 2022

ScuzzyEye wrote:
14 Jan 2022
plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
I was correct.
It’s written into the file. Destructive like.
Right.
With ReCycle 1.0, that changed to non-destructive in ReCycle 2.0 and REX2.
Ok, back at the comp and I've checked this.You can only access the original non-stretched slice via Recycle. As a bounced sample dragged into the sequencer, it's got a tail and may as well have been destructively altered for practical purposes there.
It's def clever stuff going on under the hood but it's not telling any sampler etc what to do. It ships as an altered file until you put it back into Recycle where by it reveals itself as not permanently altered.
Very odd.
And exceedingly odd that we can't access this tail editing after the save to .rex2. Why have it there in the first place if it's essentially an effect? An unalterable effect. But then not.
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Post 14 Jan 2022

plaamook wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Ok, back at the comp and I've checked this.You can only access the original non-stretched slice via Recycle. As a bounced sample dragged into the sequencer, it's got a tail and may as well have been destructively altered for practical purposes there.
It's def clever stuff going on under the hood but it's not telling any sampler etc what to do. It ships as an altered file until you put it back into Recycle where by it reveals itself as not permanently altered.
Very odd.
And exceedingly odd that we can't access this tail editing after the save to .rex2. Why have it there in the first place if it's essentially an effect? An unalterable effect. But then not.
That neatly brings us back around to the start of this thread. What could be possible with a Recycle 3 / REX3 format.

Since REX2 files do have all the original contents, and simple metadata telling the decoder what to do. The decoding library could be upgraded to allow programs loading REX2 (and later) files more flexibility in how how they are processed. The decoder could inform the program that it has the default REX2 stretch, and the program could say, I prefer granular resynthesis, or what ever. Also the REX3 library could possibly allow access to the hidden tails.

As for what could be done with a new Recycle, it could open REX2 files, and you could add new suggested stretch modes and then save it as a REX3 file.

Now knowing the history of ReCycle 1.0, and it's lossy alteration of the audio stored in the REX file, I can understand the progress to REX2. It was obviously to allow re-editing of the file, because you can do exactly that. But it still behaved like a read-only format for the distribution of loops. This also set things up nicely for future expansion of features, so you aren't committed to the limited choices presented in the past. It was future proofed, but that future never arrived.

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Post 14 Jan 2022

ScuzzyEye wrote:
14 Jan 2022
That neatly brings us back around to the start of this thread. What could be possible with a Recycle 3 / REX3 format.
ReCycle 3.0, who knows, hopefully one day. But REX-3, well I've hoped for that for some time.
Digging through the archives, I found this which I wrote back in 2013, which was an exploration of what MIGHT be possible with a REX3 format (and also a new REX player to support the new features). Not sure any of it still applies but is still interesting.

REX3

Multi-Track REX files
Especially valuable with drums, allows you to sample the overheads, room mice, bottom snare/outside kick, etc and have them available to the user. Up to 4 (8?) stereo pairs can be embedded in the REX3 files.

Slice Tags
Slice tagging and a player that can sort/group tags is useful for assigning slices to separate outputs. Tagging each Kick slice allows a workflow where you select all slices with the Kick tag, assign them to their own output or change any settings, then do the same for snare, side stick, hat, toms, etc.

8 tags are available for slices, and 8 tags are also available for any additional "tracks" with multi-track REX files. Tag names are user definable in ReCycle.

Multi-Tempo
Some grooves are tempo dependent, some are not. But even simple patterns can't be stretched by large amounts and still sound right. By supporting multiple tempos, REX loops can become more natural sounding when shifting tempo far away from the original tempo

Duple & Triple REX files in one REX3 file
For each tempo, you can create a separate 3/4 or 6/8 version of the loop and embed it in the REX3 file.

Of course, to use these new features we need a new REX Player.

Dr Octa Rex v2

Multitrack REX player
REX files with multi track data will allow you to "re-mix" the loops, especially useful with live drum loops. Electronic loops can also benefit by using the additional tracks for effects, alternate processing like compression/EQ, etc. 4 (8?) faders with solo/mute gives you on board mixing capacities.

Tag Select/Sort/Group
Tagged REX files allow you to select all slices with the same tag. Multi-track tags allow selecting all of one track type. Tags for slices and tracks can be used together, to select all kick's room microphone tracks, for example. This is useful for quickly assigning all the kicks to a separate output, and all the kick’s room mic’s to another. You can also use tags to select slices for ‘group’ editing of filter/adsr/levels etc.

Multi-Tempo
REX files with multi-tempo data will allow the player to automatically select best loop for the current song tempo, and the loops will automatically switch if there's a tempo change. This feature can be turned off if it's not desired.

Duple/Triple selection
Manual or auto duple/triple selection for REX3 loops that support the feature. This allows you to choose a custom 3/4 or 6/8 version of the loop when working with those time signatures. This sounds more natural than editing the 4/4 loop for ‘triple’ meters.

Additional Features:
8th and 16th note shuffle, with percentage amount and ability to use the global shuffle. Groove templates can also be applied to the REX player, meaning you don't have to go "to track" first.

16 stereo outputs, to support multi-track REX loops

3/4 and 6/8 “triple” meter support, with auto meter mode available as an option.
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