Velocity-sensitive device triggerer?

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Emceen
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 May 2020

Post 11 May 2020

Recently I've been trying to make an analogue drum machine only out of Reason devices. In my first version I'd have whatever synth was making the sound, like a Thor, & route it to a Kong so I could trigger every drum sound in one convenient place. I'd mix all the sounds together with a 14X line mixer, add some master FX, then feed it through one master mixer channel.

However, using the gate on Kong/ReDrum has had its drawbacks. For one, there's no velocity sensitivity, it's a binary on or off. If I wanted to have dynamic snare rolls for example, I'd have to write in automation, which takes a bit of time. Second, & I think this is just the nature of gate, if I have two notes directly next to each other, it only plays it as one. Because of this I have to add space between every single note I write.

I tried to redesign the process using Control Voltage. I had my Kong, & I first made every Kong pad play a plain sine wave & routed it to its own individual audio output. I then fed that audio signal through an empty Thor, & used the modulation matrix so that Audio in -> CV out. I hooked the CV out to the CV in of another synthesizer, nothing happened. I hooked it to the gate in, & the synth played a crazy distorted signal, I think the CV was modulating the pitch somehow. I thought that since CV has (I think) 127 values, if I played a note with X sensitivity on Kong, it'd send a CV signal worth X sensitivity, & the synth would play at X volume, but it didn't work.

Is this still possible? Is there any workaround or (preferably free lol) rack device that can send triggering signals to my synths that don't have the drawbacks of gate? Thank you!

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 12 Jan 2022

did you find an answer to this? Im in that same boat right now

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Pepin
Posts: 290
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 12 Jan 2022

Gate does include velocity. It's a fractional value ranging from 0 to 1, not binary.
If you measure the Gate Out of a Kong pad, you'll see the value changes depending how high up you click the pad (low at the bottom, high at the top).

So I'm not sure I understand the issue.

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selig
RE Developer
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Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 12 Jan 2022

Yea, not sure I understand why not just play Kong from MIDI/Pads/Players or whatever. Why use a sine wave to convert to a gate to trigger the sound by playing on the pads of the first (sine wave) Kong when you could as easily play the pads on the kong with your analog samples?
Are we missing some functionality that you need that's leading you down the CV trigger path?
Selig Audio, LLC

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 12 Jan 2022

Pepin wrote:
12 Jan 2022
Gate does include velocity. It's a fractional value ranging from 0 to 1, not binary.
If you measure the Gate Out of a Kong pad, you'll see the value changes depending how high up you click the pad (low at the bottom, high at the top).

So I'm not sure I understand the issue.
what do you see as the best way to change the gates velocity?

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 12 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
12 Jan 2022
Yea, not sure I understand why not just play Kong from MIDI/Pads/Players or whatever. Why use a sine wave to convert to a gate to trigger the sound by playing on the pads of the first (sine wave) Kong when you could as easily play the pads on the kong with your analog samples?
Are we missing some functionality that you need that's leading you down the CV trigger path?
I cant speak for the OP, but i ran into an issue that i think the OP is referring to which lead me to the post.

Im trying to create an analog drum set up as well to do 2 things.

1. I want to trigger 8 separate synth devices to serve as my 8 individual drum sounds.

2. I also want to be able to have a rack sequencer  that can trigger the 8 kong pads that would trigger the 8 synth devices.

With these 2 objectives I assumed that i would be able to have options with how I programmed the drums. 

1.I could use the step sequencer 

2.i could manually record in the drums 

3. Or do both

I have no issue playing the kong via midi or clicking the pads, but the gate cv from redrum for example seems to play the pads differently  is the way i would explain it. 

Im pretty sure i can hear the effect of a note on and off at times as well
I have questions about if cv velocity controls could help and figuring ways to set it up.

Also I have questions about if theres a way to make the redrum cv gate stay open longer to simulate a longer press on the kong better...

ive used redrum to trigger samples which works fine, but into individual synths its tricky....
ill also note i do realize with the drum sequencer player everything seems to works fine...all the drum sounds sound more defined then with redrum, but i dont want to use the drum sequencer player.

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Pepin
Posts: 290
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 13 Jan 2022

If you're having issues only when sequencing with Redrum, I would double check that the Redrum channels are using Gate rather than Pulse.
RedrumGateLength.png
From the manual:
The length of the gate signal depends on the Decay/Gate setting for the sound: In Decay mode, a short “trig pulse” is sent out, while in Gate mode, the gate signal will have the same length as the drum note.
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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 10002
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 13 Jan 2022

okaino wrote:
12 Jan 2022
selig wrote:
12 Jan 2022
Yea, not sure I understand why not just play Kong from MIDI/Pads/Players or whatever. Why use a sine wave to convert to a gate to trigger the sound by playing on the pads of the first (sine wave) Kong when you could as easily play the pads on the kong with your analog samples?
Are we missing some functionality that you need that's leading you down the CV trigger path?
I cant speak for the OP, but i ran into an issue that i think the OP is referring to which lead me to the post.

Im trying to create an analog drum set up as well to do 2 things.

1. I want to trigger 8 separate synth devices to serve as my 8 individual drum sounds.

2. I also want to be able to have a rack sequencer  that can trigger the 8 kong pads that would trigger the 8 synth devices.

With these 2 objectives I assumed that i would be able to have options with how I programmed the drums. 

1.I could use the step sequencer 

2.i could manually record in the drums 

3. Or do both

I have no issue playing the kong via midi or clicking the pads, but the gate cv from redrum for example seems to play the pads differently  is the way i would explain it. 

Im pretty sure i can hear the effect of a note on and off at times as well
I have questions about if cv velocity controls could help and figuring ways to set it up.

Also I have questions about if theres a way to make the redrum cv gate stay open longer to simulate a longer press on the kong better...

ive used redrum to trigger samples which works fine, but into individual synths its tricky....
ill also note i do realize with the drum sequencer player everything seems to works fine...all the drum sounds sound more defined then with redrum, but i dont want to use the drum sequencer player.
OK, I think I understand now…
I would simply use a Combinator, restrict each synth to one MIDI note, snd done. You could have a Europa for kick, Thor for snare, Subtractor for hats, etc, I don’t understand how CV is necessary for this, and it seems to actually prevent full functionality. Am I missing something?
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 290
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 13 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
13 Jan 2022
OK, I think I understand now…
I would simply use a Combinator, restrict each synth to one MIDI note, snd done. You could have a Europa for kick, Thor for snare, Subtractor for hats, etc, I don’t understand how CV is necessary for this, and it seems to actually prevent full functionality. Am I missing something?
Main downside vs Kong would probably be lack of mute groups.

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 13 Jan 2022

Pepin wrote:
13 Jan 2022
If you're having issues only when sequencing with Redrum, I would double check that the Redrum channels are using Gate rather than Pulse.
RedrumGateLength.png

From the manual:
The length of the gate signal depends on the Decay/Gate setting for the sound: In Decay mode, a short “trig pulse” is sent out, while in Gate mode, the gate signal will have the same length as the drum note.
Thanks Peppin Nailed It! Ive been using reason forever and never though twice about that section. It indeed allows the response im looking for. Thank You!

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 13 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
13 Jan 2022
okaino wrote:
12 Jan 2022


I cant speak for the OP, but i ran into an issue that i think the OP is referring to which lead me to the post.

Im trying to create an analog drum set up as well to do 2 things.

1. I want to trigger 8 separate synth devices to serve as my 8 individual drum sounds.

2. I also want to be able to have a rack sequencer  that can trigger the 8 kong pads that would trigger the 8 synth devices.

With these 2 objectives I assumed that i would be able to have options with how I programmed the drums. 

1.I could use the step sequencer 

2.i could manually record in the drums 

3. Or do both

I have no issue playing the kong via midi or clicking the pads, but the gate cv from redrum for example seems to play the pads differently  is the way i would explain it. 

Im pretty sure i can hear the effect of a note on and off at times as well
I have questions about if cv velocity controls could help and figuring ways to set it up.

Also I have questions about if theres a way to make the redrum cv gate stay open longer to simulate a longer press on the kong better...

ive used redrum to trigger samples which works fine, but into individual synths its tricky....
ill also note i do realize with the drum sequencer player everything seems to works fine...all the drum sounds sound more defined then with redrum, but i dont want to use the drum sequencer player.
OK, I think I understand now…
I would simply use a Combinator, restrict each synth to one MIDI note, snd done. You could have a Europa for kick, Thor for snare, Subtractor for hats, etc, I don’t understand how CV is necessary for this, and it seems to actually prevent full functionality. Am I missing something?

You are right about limited functionality to a degree its just the way im trying to stage my drums with a rack sequencer right now...Its something i havent done much of, but a way im finding that I think allows me to dial drum sounds in via synths which is new to me.

Ive been using drum samples for the longest. I want to try to create my own drum sounds and possibly animate them which i dont find as easy to do with drum samples. Just trying new stuff to keep everything fresh.

Looking forward to your livestream later on as well!

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 10002
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 13 Jan 2022

okaino wrote:
13 Jan 2022
You are right about limited functionality to a degree its just the way im trying to stage my drums with a rack sequencer right now...Its something i havent done much of, but a way im finding that I think allows me to dial drum sounds in via synths which is new to me.

Ive been using drum samples for the longest. I want to try to create my own drum sounds and possibly animate them which i dont find as easy to do with drum samples. Just trying new stuff to keep everything fresh.

Looking forward to your livestream later on as well!
What rack sequencer are you wanting to use?
Selig Audio, LLC

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 13 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
13 Jan 2022
okaino wrote:
13 Jan 2022
You are right about limited functionality to a degree its just the way im trying to stage my drums with a rack sequencer right now...Its something i havent done much of, but a way im finding that I think allows me to dial drum sounds in via synths which is new to me.

Ive been using drum samples for the longest. I want to try to create my own drum sounds and possibly animate them which i dont find as easy to do with drum samples. Just trying new stuff to keep everything fresh.

Looking forward to your livestream later on as well!
What rack sequencer are you wanting to use?
system 19
Last edited by okaino on 14 Jan 2022, edited 1 time in total.

okaino
Posts: 142
Joined: 04 Jan 2017

Post 13 Jan 2022

Pepin wrote:
13 Jan 2022
If you're having issues only when sequencing with Redrum, I would double check that the Redrum channels are using Gate rather than Pulse.
RedrumGateLength.png

From the manual:
The length of the gate signal depends on the Decay/Gate setting for the sound: In Decay mode, a short “trig pulse” is sent out, while in Gate mode, the gate signal will have the same length as the drum note.
Also to follow up for more information is the nature of CV to send pulse signals?

and the reason the result works with the redrum gate option is because its changing the cv output from pulse to square correct?

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 290
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 13 Jan 2022

okaino wrote:
13 Jan 2022
Pepin wrote:
13 Jan 2022
If you're having issues only when sequencing with Redrum, I would double check that the Redrum channels are using Gate rather than Pulse.
RedrumGateLength.png

From the manual:
Also to follow up for more information is the nature of CV to send pulse signals?

and the reason the result works with the redrum gate option is because its changing the cv output from pulse to square correct?
You can think of it like playing on the keyboard.
When gate CV is non-zero, the key is held. And the value of the gate signal is analogous to velocity.
When using Redrum as a sequencer, gate mode and the length knob let you control how long the key is held.

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