About Improving Reason's Internal DAW

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Creativemind
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Post 20 Dec 2021

rootwheel wrote:
18 Dec 2021
DaveyG wrote:
17 Dec 2021


Spot on. Just give the DAW some love now and again.
This is a fair enough, I was just wondered who the community thinks has the best sequencer on the market currently - i.e. which DAW's featureset would Reason Studios be advised to look at as a starting point when revisiting development on their own sequencer!

I'm not talking about slavishly copying something else without giving it a Reason twist first! However, at the same time, I don't really feel like sequencers are the best part of a DAW suitable for paradigm-shifting innovation.

Am I right in thinking most people see Live and Cubase as having the best MIDI sequencers going currently?
I'd say Logic or Reaper have the best sequencer / arrangers myself.
:reason:

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 21 Dec 2021

Creativemind wrote:
20 Dec 2021
I'd say Logic or Reaper have the best sequencer / arrangers myself.
In the Reaper community, the sequencer is perceived as one of the weaker parts of Reaper.

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aeox
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Post 21 Dec 2021

Improve internal mind

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Creativemind
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Post 21 Dec 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
21 Dec 2021
Creativemind wrote:
20 Dec 2021
I'd say Logic or Reaper have the best sequencer / arrangers myself.
In the Reaper community, the sequencer is perceived as one of the weaker parts of Reaper.
Is it, right, do you know what they say is weak about it? I do know in a lot of cases, the themes don't affect the arranger that great. They tend to get everything else great and the media browser and arranger seem to be sub par to me and even sometimes the midi editor.

For me, what I like about the arranger window and track control panel are the linked items (clips) and automation and the fact that once the item is linked, you simply drag the right or left edge to loop it, quick, easy and automation can be hidden. Simply hitting S to slice by edit cursor I use extensively, track folders and volume and panning on the track control panel I use a lot too. I also love being able to apply effects to the item itself too. So there are 3 ways to add effects in Reaper, all having there own uses. I also like (and it's just something so small and simple) that if loop is on, when the song reaches the last part of the last item (clip) that it loops back to the start of the project and continues playing. Something else so simple and easy, if you drag an item down to where there is no track currently, it simply creates one (midi or audio respectively). The next logical step for me would be that if it was a midi item, that it created a new track automatically but with the same devices on the track too. I would've said time markers but they are a bit small and naff looking for me, even changing themes or certainly the good dozen I've tried don't seem to put much effort into time markers. The arranger seems to not be as top notch as the other elements for me on a lot of themes (including markers) and also the media browser too seems often to be not on par with the icons, tcp and mixer. Sometimes even the midi editor. I've yet to find a theme that covers every single base beautifully but stuck with Blankfiles Logic 3.80 (and yes I know 3.90 is the latest I think) for now.
:reason:

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 21 Dec 2021

Creativemind wrote:
21 Dec 2021
Is it, right, do you know what they say is weak about it? I do know in a lot of cases, the themes don't affect the arranger that great. They tend to get everything else great and the media browser and arranger seem to be sub par to me and even sometimes the midi editor.
When you said sequencer, I took it you meant the MIDI-editor, as I am not aware of any other 'sequencer' in Reaper (it has been my main DAW for the last decade or so). However, truth to be told, they did do a lot of work on the MIDI editor over the last years. I'm not a heavy MIDI editor, though, as I tend to record most stuff live and only fix the occasional timing issues (when working in Reaper). I still like Reaper, but it has nothing on RS when it comes to integration of instruments and FX into the sequencer. Automation lanes in Reaper is one of my least favorite functions.

I used Orion before Reaper and liked it that every instrument had its dedicated pattern sequencer, but I missed the possibility to do linear recording, so I moved to Reaper. Then I missed any form of integrated pattern sequencing and started using VST sequencers and arps, but that doesn't integrate very nicely. So now I'm here. Reason sits extremely well at that intersection of pattern sequencers (in the rack) that integrate into the Reason main sequencer, while letting you do linear sequencing as well. And Blocks take that to a whole other level.

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chimp_spanner
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Post 21 Dec 2021

Creativemind wrote:
20 Dec 2021
kuhliloach wrote:
17 Dec 2021
Workflow is key. Gadget is next gen. Feature-wise I believe Reason is ancient-level dead, and a total mess, and should learn to compete carefully with the leading DAWs which are Logic and Ableton. I think of a few devs in their own world, clueless, in a small room. Gems like pitch correction in Reason are rarely discussed or utilized I guess due to the DAW itself being shelved; I try to tell people there's a melodyne in there. With Logic as my main DAW the RRP lives and allows Reason to proceed in the modern world. Just get ready to freeze your RRP tracks if collaborating because NOBODY else has these plug-ins. They can all wonder where you got those cool sounds. I often reach for compressors, eq's, reverbs, Kuassa, and Noise Engineering stuff via RRP.
It's true, people will reign down on me here or get angry but when I was at uni doing music tech in 2016, not one single person used Reason as their main DAW out of about 100 students (not that I asked every one obviously) but a few and I mean a few used it sometimes or said they used to. The vast majority used Logic and some Pro Tools or Ableton. I knew a couple of people who used FL Studio but in a professional setting it's usually Logic.
I don't think that's so much a failing of Reason's feature set as it is a lack of awareness that Reason can run plugins and do audio now. When I stream R12 there are *still* plenty of people who are like "woah, I didn't know Reason could do that" and those are people who are hobbyists, semi-professionals, a whole range of users for who Reason just hasn't been on their radar for them to know that things have changed since R5.

I've never had a problem with Reason's sequencer at its core, and tbh I think "total mess" is slightly hyperbolic. I mean if you compare it to something like Live - it has things Live doesn't (or didn't until super recently). Melodyne style pitch editing. Comping (which I still prefer in Reason). A MIDI toolbox of sorts (it's still very clunky in Live to do things like equalise note velocities or lengths). The automation in Reason is still, to my mind, among the best of all the DAWs because of clips, and static/return automation values. Note lanes are incredibly useful to have, without the need to create and configure additional MIDI channels and I/O. Per note lane groove > Live's per clip groove, IMO anyway. I don't think the fundamentals are bad at all.

There are minor quality of life issues like lack of note chase or note preview on arrow key nudging, legato not applying to the last note in a clip.

Then there are various shortcomings that may or may not be a big deal depending on preference. Folders are, I think, universally agreed to be important. A lot of people draw comparisons to FL's note editor with things like chord stamping, or Live's note/scale folding. Personally I don't find these useful. They would add value, but I'd rather get the basics sorted first. Step input in the sequencer would be great. More MIDI tools like parabolic or oscillating line tools in the editor would be awesome. And there's a lot of room to improve things like player integration (i.e. a global key/scale track that all players could follow). Oh pitch envelopes would also be fantastic. One of my biggest roadblocks in sound design.

But like I said yesterday I'm not keen for Reason to look to these programs for inspiration. I'd be quite happy if it did everything it does now but with some attention given to those niggling workflow killers that have existed for years. That said, my overall favourite sequencer is probably Cubase. If Cubase had Reason's automation...that would be very nice.

kitekrazy
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Post 21 Dec 2021

chimp_spanner wrote:
20 Dec 2021
I'm almost definitely repeating myself but yeah, I mean nothing about Reason in its current form is a barrier to making music. Source: I've made lots of music with it :lol: So I'm not one to be dramatic. I get things done. I'm not *not* making music while I wait for dream feature #52362 to appear.

That said, as time drags on, it's getting harder and harder to justify (or even comprehend) why I can't play a MIDI note from anywhere but the note-on. Or why I don't have track folders. Or why there's no easy or reliable way to manage tempo definition of audio. Or why there's no punch in/out. No sensitivity slider for slices. Ya know, someone pointed out the other day that it'd be nice if imported audio inherited the filename as a clip label and I was like...yeah wait, what? Why *doesn't* it do that? Why, in all the years Reason has had audio, has no-one thought "wouldn't this make life easier"?

I think that's what it boils down to for me. It works, but it could be easier. There's a fine line between making music because of Reasons features, and making music despite its features. I don't want it to try and be a Live killer. I don't want it to be more like FL. Or Cubase. I just want Reason to be the best Reason it can be. It'd be easier if we were miles away because I could drop it and move to something else. It's the fact that most of the important QOL things I need are a point update away. I just don't know if or when it's coming. Maybe I should stop blueballing myself and just use RRP in something else...
It seems their marketing is in that direction.

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Creativemind
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Post 21 Dec 2021

chimp_spanner wrote:
21 Dec 2021
Creativemind wrote:
20 Dec 2021


It's true, people will reign down on me here or get angry but when I was at uni doing music tech in 2016, not one single person used Reason as their main DAW out of about 100 students (not that I asked every one obviously) but a few and I mean a few used it sometimes or said they used to. The vast majority used Logic and some Pro Tools or Ableton. I knew a couple of people who used FL Studio but in a professional setting it's usually Logic.
I don't think that's so much a failing of Reason's feature set as it is a lack of awareness that Reason can run plugins and do audio now. When I stream R12 there are *still* plenty of people who are like "woah, I didn't know Reason could do that" and those are people who are hobbyists, semi-professionals, a whole range of users for who Reason just hasn't been on their radar for them to know that things have changed since R5.

I've never had a problem with Reason's sequencer at its core, and tbh I think "total mess" is slightly hyperbolic. I mean if you compare it to something like Live - it has things Live doesn't (or didn't until super recently). Melodyne style pitch editing. Comping (which I still prefer in Reason). A MIDI toolbox of sorts (it's still very clunky in Live to do things like equalise note velocities or lengths). The automation in Reason is still, to my mind, among the best of all the DAWs because of clips, and static/return automation values. Note lanes are incredibly useful to have, without the need to create and configure additional MIDI channels and I/O. Per note lane groove > Live's per clip groove, IMO anyway. I don't think the fundamentals are bad at all.

There are minor quality of life issues like lack of note chase or note preview on arrow key nudging, legato not applying to the last note in a clip.

Then there are various shortcomings that may or may not be a big deal depending on preference. Folders are, I think, universally agreed to be important. A lot of people draw comparisons to FL's note editor with things like chord stamping, or Live's note/scale folding. Personally I don't find these useful. They would add value, but I'd rather get the basics sorted first. Step input in the sequencer would be great. More MIDI tools like parabolic or oscillating line tools in the editor would be awesome. And there's a lot of room to improve things like player integration (i.e. a global key/scale track that all players could follow). Oh pitch envelopes would also be fantastic. One of my biggest roadblocks in sound design.

But like I said yesterday I'm not keen for Reason to look to these programs for inspiration. I'd be quite happy if it did everything it does now but with some attention given to those niggling workflow killers that have existed for years. That said, my overall favourite sequencer is probably Cubase. If Cubase had Reason's automation...that would be very nice.
I agree, part of it is the fact that it stayed a closed format for years and a lot of people don't (as you say) realise there's audio and vst in Reason now but there's also the other big features missing that you mentioned some of.

I do remember at college before uni, showing a teacher Reason as he was only familiar with Cubase and Logic and he immediately (but this was Reason 8) became irritated by the 3 windows appearing like 3 separate entities when labelling and a couple of other things I forget now. There's the Sync All but that needs to be built in on the fly, another long requested feature. It does come across as a clunky software in comparison to others with things not seemingly obvious (such as I didn't realise that a lot of missing CC events were available in the sequencer as automation about a year ago till it was pointed out on here) and it seems odd they aren't as CC events in the midi editor.

Not sure why you find the automation better in Reason. Reaper's is far more advanced with linked automation, copy and paste values from 1 point to the other, draw in-able automation and you can even LFO automation too.
:reason:

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chimp_spanner
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Post 22 Dec 2021


Not sure why you find the automation better in Reason. Reaper's is far more advanced with linked automation, copy and paste values from 1 point to the other, draw in-able automation and you can even LFO automation too.
Oh I just like how it handles in clips (so I can ctrl+d, stretch, reverse, sequence automation in a more musical way), and that things return to their resting value when no clip is present. I'm sure there are plenty of things it's missing but just for the way I work, it fits me really well!

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Benedict
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Post 22 Dec 2021

I'm with Mr Spanner. Reaper can do trillions of things more than Reason but it is in how it manages all those trillions of things that it comes unglued.

Reason's Automation is elegant, which means that while it may only do 4 things, it does them very nicely, very usefully so I can get my job done and move along.

:-)
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integerpoet
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Post 22 Dec 2021

Benedict wrote:
22 Dec 2021
Reason's Automation is elegant, which means that while it may only do 4 things, it does them very nicely, very usefully so I can get my job done and move along.
Not that I am suggesting you are taking a side in any flame war other than this one, but…

That comment reminded me of the old Mac/Windows flame wars in which Windows advocates would argue "Windows has a hundred times more apps!" and Mac advocates would respond "But the Mac has more good apps."

And that in turns reminds me that one of the things that originally attracted me to Reason all those years ago was that Reason seemed to be the Mac of DAWs like Pixar seemed to be the Mac of animation studios.

This post will no doubt alienate someone here who will now pledge to jump to Cakewalk in protest. :-)

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Post 22 Dec 2021

I made a review of Cakewalk recently (and remember I owned Sonar 2 and it broke every session). I was pretty positive overall, esp about the mixing experience, but very honest about the limits and what is funky. The comments are proof that the internet is an amazing place if you own flame-retardant underpants. most clearly didn't even watch the video. Some even took to abusing the few who dared to give positive commentary (which we deleted instantly). I think the vid got posed in a Cakebalk group so they decided to come over for a lynching seeing they all came within about 2 days several days after the video went live.

I did a Reaper vid after this and it all went horribly on the day. A great example of what happens to people in that space so we kept it as representative. there, people were a bit more even overall. I guess they had to face that a) it stiffed in front of them and b) it probably happened to them too.

Why people get so bent over who uses what or who likes what I never fully get - oh I get the psychology but not the practice seeing nothing of any value is won.
:-)
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GRB
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Post 22 Dec 2021

Multiple MIDI takes... please.

I like to keep a loop going and improvise a melody, bass or whatever on the keyboard. Sometimes some happy accidents start new ideas and it would be nice to catch them without having to create a monster 100 bar song before recording :)
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scotward57
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Post 23 Dec 2021

GRB wrote:
22 Dec 2021
Multiple MIDI takes... please.

I like to keep a loop going and improvise a melody, bass or whatever on the keyboard. Sometimes some happy accidents start new ideas and it would be nice to catch them without having to create a monster 100 bar song before recording :)
Doesn't the comp editing tool do that already?

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Pepin
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Post 23 Dec 2021

scotward57 wrote:
23 Dec 2021
GRB wrote:
22 Dec 2021
Multiple MIDI takes... please.

I like to keep a loop going and improvise a melody, bass or whatever on the keyboard. Sometimes some happy accidents start new ideas and it would be nice to catch them without having to create a monster 100 bar song before recording :)
Doesn't the comp editing tool do that already?
Comp editing is for audio, not MIDI.

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integerpoet
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Post 23 Dec 2021

Benedict wrote:
22 Dec 2021
I made a review of Cakewalk recently…
I only mentioned Cakewalk for the comedic value of a Windows partisan adopting it as a means of performatively rejecting any DAW which offers a Mac version. Developers like Ableton and Steinberg are traitors to the cause! I suppose it would be like a Mac partisan refusing to use any DAW but Logic (and perhaps even being willing to argue that GarageBand is objectively superior to, say, Pro Tools). But as usual my comedy has limited impact outside my own head.
Benedict wrote:
22 Dec 2021
Why people get so bent over who uses what or who likes what I never fully get - oh I get the psychology but not the practice seeing nothing of any value is won.
Although nothing is ever won, people have an emotional investment in their weapon of choice, and defending that choice makes them feel wise to the point of righteousness… until they read the replies, at which time the cycle repeats. Never mind that in order to defend their choice one of them must pick a fight; there are plenty of others with the same emotional damage who will join an endless dance. They're not really even trying to win, but going through the motions gives their brains an opportunity to release comforting neurotransmitters. It's all very sad.

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Post 24 Dec 2021

Pepin wrote:
23 Dec 2021
scotward57 wrote:
23 Dec 2021


Doesn't the comp editing tool do that already?
Comp editing is for audio, not MIDI.
Good point. I see what he's saying now. Makes sense.

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demt
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Post 24 Dec 2021

It would be nice to b able to add tracks to a block with 1 click ,it really would
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Creativemind
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Post 24 Dec 2021

Benedict wrote:
22 Dec 2021
I'm with Mr Spanner. Reaper can do trillions of things more than Reason but it is in how it manages all those trillions of things that it comes unglued.

Reason's Automation is elegant, which means that while it may only do 4 things, it does them very nicely, very usefully so I can get my job done and move along.

:-)
Maybe so, job done and move along but I've not become tangled in Reaper in anything really, you just need to use it all the time and for a while to settle in. I know you had that issue with the record arm on a track automatically arming but I did find out how to do that of sorts eventually but I'm confident it's doable as pretty much anything is in Reaper.

Also, Reason doesn't have linked automation, yes, you can copy and paste it over / under each clip but for me it's so much better to have automation tied to the clip and generally if it's the same clip, with the same notes on a track, what you automate will generally be the same thing, like opening a filter on the last part of a clip maybe, so you can just copy and paste the clip in Reaper and the automation will tie with it then if you decide you want the filter a bit more open or something, voila, they all change as they're linked.
:reason:

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guitfnky
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Post 25 Dec 2021

having the automation in separate clips is pretty handy sometimes—it makes a lot of sense, intuitively. the problem I have with Reason's implementation is that they're separate tracks from the thing you're automating, so as I start nearing the end of a mix (when I do the bulk of my automation), managing tracks can become a huge pain in the ass. track folders would help immensely.
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Creativemind
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Post 26 Dec 2021

guitfnky wrote:
25 Dec 2021
having the automation in separate clips is pretty handy sometimes—it makes a lot of sense, intuitively. the problem I have with Reason's implementation is that they're separate tracks from the thing you're automating, so as I start nearing the end of a mix (when I do the bulk of my automation), managing tracks can become a huge pain in the ass. track folders would help immensely.
Was this because of what I said about Reapers automation? it is in a separate item (clip) but can also be linked and tied to the item you're automating, so again, if you change your mind after you've cut and pasted several clips and automation to go with it, you don't have to pain-stakingly delete all the automation clips and repaste them, this is one of my biggest annoyances in Reason, same with having no linked clips and not really into Blocks, I want linked clips / automation but I think Reason's reasoning is because they have blocks which are similar but not the same. Also in Reaper, you have multiple automation curves, you can draw shapes, lfo automation, the base automation point is automatically put in for you and you can also have the automation displayed within the item too if you prefer that display, you can also hide automation lanes to tidy up the arranger (sequencer.) Literally anythings possible in Reaper. The only thing I'm not sure of, is I don't know if you can save automation and reload it in but wouldn't surprise me if you can.
:reason:

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Shamantrixx
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Post 14 Jan 2022

I'm both new to this forum and recently got back into Reason after abandoning it (Reason 3) for Cubase. Last few years I've been using Studio One but tried also Ableton and Logic.

Obviously Reason has improved a lot since version 3 so I enjoy trying out all the new stuff. However I see that few things haven't changed at all .. and I feel they're holding Reason back.

- rack is still the same size that was intended for display on small 15 inch CRT monitors. There is just not enough space on the front panel of device and as a result many devices are cramed with dozens of tiny knobs, faders etc.

Extra screen space was used to add more racks horizontally but I feel it was just an ez way of covering extra screen space without actually using it in intelligent and efficient way.

- Devices in rack don't allow tabs (or pages). For example take a look at diva. It's similar in size to Reason rack devices but has multiple tabs or pages. So controls are big and EZ to use with standard controls on first page and more advanced stuff is logically grouped on following pages.

Reason has something similar only for multiple engines .. but that's really just another instance of the same device. Why this can't be done in Reason is beyond me!? Coupled with already small rack space this makes Reason look like it's tuned for running on a smart watch screen. It looks REALLY bad.

- grouping tracks. C'mon .. it's 2022! Somehow I have a feeling that this is related to "rack device" logic as well since grouping tracks and being able to collapse them into a single "folder track" is not exactly rocket science. Like having more than one page or a tab on a device.

- browser .. well other people already mentioned it so I won't waste time repeating it. It's a complete mess. This really needs some intervention since browser rarely does (and goes) what (where) I need. But maybe I'm using it wrong 🤔

Overall .. Reason came a long way from version 3. New instruments are great and I generally enjoy (re)discovering Reason. I know that majority of users have an acquired taste for Reasons looks but .. I'm sorry. It looks like a toy from the end of 20th century made to run on 800x600 px.

Also some of built-in devices (imo) like EQ's, compressors, limiters, reverbs .. could really be better.

Cheers :)

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selig
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Post 14 Jan 2022

Tabs have been possible for a while now on REs, Complex-1 using it to swap the entire panel for "cable mode".
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AnotherMathias
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Post 14 Jan 2022

selig wrote:
14 Jan 2022
Tabs have been possible for a while now on REs, Complex-1 using it to swap the entire panel for "cable mode".
Huh, I didn't know that!

Scenic spreads things out a lot, and uses a whole bunch of tabs. For my taste, that's not a good thing.
Personally, I think that Reasons mostly tab-less instruments is a positive, I like to see and access everything at a quick glance.

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thx
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Post 15 Jan 2022

Creativemind wrote:
26 Dec 2021
[Literally anythings possible in Reaper. The only thing I'm not sure of, is I don't know if you can save automation and reload it in but wouldn't surprise me if you can.
Yeah you can do this. As *.ReaperAutoItem files, so they load back in as proper smooth curves, exactly as you saved them.

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