Reason Studios shares their roadmap (September 7, 2021)

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plaamook
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Post 08 Nov 2021

Like Amazon prime.
Can’t remember how many times I’ve tríales that. And you can opt out the next day but keep your trial till the end. Or opt in for a reminder. Relatively transparent even for them.
Like figg said, I generally steer clear of em cause I can’t be bothered.
Perpetual Reason 12 Beta Tester :reason:

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avasopht
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Post 08 Nov 2021

BriocheBaps wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Creativemind wrote:
08 Nov 2021


You pretty much summed it up but basically - so they can get your credit card details and also fingers crossed some people won't realise they have to manually stop it themselves and be charged a month's subscription so therefore makes them money they DEFINITELY wouldn't have had before. Even Dick Turpin wore a mask.

Some shady lawyer come up with as a way to dupe people legally say 10 years ago or more. "Let's put in the fine print that no-one reads (and obviously in lawyer speak probably) that the subscription will automatically roll over if you don't cancel it and think how many people we can legally con out of money before they realise, and it will be legal and there's nothing they can do about it.
This kind of toxic pedantry on the internet doesn't do anything positive either for this community or the world at large. Every single subscription service that exists needs to be opted out of as, when commencing - even in the care of a free trial, you agree to recurring billing. It isn't difficult to understand. Furthermore, suggesting that personal responsibility should be overridden by Reason Studios and they have seek ongoing explicit confirmation that you wish for the subscription to continue is not realistic neither is it fair to use it as a stick to beat them with.

A lot of people's dissatisfaction in life could be sorted just by asking themselves if they are being reasonable and refraining from posting until they are sure that they are.
That's not entirely correct.

When someone signs up for a "free trial", everything else is a substep to achieving the goal of "sign up for free trial".

This is basic GOMS theory.

If a consumer signs up for a "free trial", then no, according to basic UX theory, then yes, explicit confirmation of an ongoing subscription is a responsibility of Reason Studios, since an ongoing subscription sounds nothing like "free trial" or a "one month trial".

The theory is well-established, and has been for a good 4-5 decades.

The idea that asking for explicit confirmation for a commitment to something that was not explicitly requested somehow overrides personal responsibility is ridiculously absurd. For it to override personal responsibility, it would have to deny them their explicit choice, not a choice made by another party 🤦
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bxbrkrz
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Post 08 Nov 2021

joeyluck wrote:
07 Nov 2021
Where are all the memes? I thought there would be more memes. And has Niklas seen mine? I worked so hard on it!
Image
Bug Vs RS 12 bugs
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

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QVprod
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Post 08 Nov 2021

avasopht wrote:
08 Nov 2021
QVprod wrote:
07 Nov 2021
That aside, if you choose to subscribe to something for a lower rate knowing that the rate will change the next month, it's on that person to keep track of their own finances. We're all adults, or at least I'd assume most people with credit/debit cards are. There are even tools to help manage these things if one needs help.

I did the Netflix trial several times before committing to it, as they kept offering it again. Sure it was free, but it still required card info. I didn't blame Netflix the one or two times I forgot to cancel. It's not like we're talking about hidden fees. Not speaking for or against the model, but it's pretty normal for subscription services to do this.
As much as it is everyone's responsibility to ensure they don't leave their doors open and whatnot, we are all of limited capability to do so. There's a reason why something like 48-62% of people who sign up for "free trials" forgot to cancel or didn't realise.

It's part of my job to know why this happens and to prevent it (when desired). However, many companies seek to deceive unsuspecting victims into making an unintended purchase/subscription and are happy to fight against a refund, even if they requested it within minutes of being charged for a 1-year subscription.

There is an extraordinary imbalance in knowledge and power here. You as an individual, no matter how hard you try, will never be able to protect yourself from every form of manipulation.

It could be stealth bank charges that make use of obscure rules of law and technicalities that can lead to you incurring exorbitant amounts of charges you will never be able to afford or pay. Just a few generations ago, the trick was company towns that were nigh impossible to escape!!!

The fields are fairly well-established, and we've known since the 70s/80s how fragile human cognition is and easy it is to manipulate. Many of those practices are used by marketing and media companies to manipulate us in ways that were unimaginable barely 100 years ago.

When it comes to "free trials" that are really subscriptions, it's often used as an underhand tactic to trick people into making an unintended purchase, and is a practice that should always be frowned upon.
Rand Europe: 'Examining misleading online free trials and subscription traps experienced by European consumers' wrote:Background: Misleading 'free' trial or test offers that subsequently trap consumers into subscriptions to purchase the test product or services are a persistent malpractice affecting many online consumers across Europe.

...

For the digital products, where subscription information was very large and quite clearly marked, only about 42 to 45 per cent of respondents noticed the fee (and they reported that around 54 per cent of others would notice the fee information).
I do like how RS did this, however, as charging $1/mo puts consumers on a higher alert to that the fact they are subscribing is more explicit. There were a few threads asking about this with the 333 promo.

They could improve it a little by allowing users to cancel the subscription after the trial. Not doing so greatly increases the likelihood of a few unintended purchases. Their decision to not do so signals to me that they might want unintended purchases.

Regardless of how "adult" or responsible a person is, any company that seeks to trick people into making unintended purchases should be frowned upon.
Yes, but you’re mentioning hidden forms of manipulation. If something is telling you blatantly what it is and you don’t keep up with it, that’s not the company’s fault. They told you what it was. Hidden fees and legal loop holes is an entirely different conversation.

Again, I agree there should be a free way of at least trying out just Reason standalone. Perhaps the unlimited demo mode still works though there’s no easy way of getting to it.

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guitfnky
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Post 08 Nov 2021

EnochLight wrote:
08 Nov 2021
guitfnky wrote:
08 Nov 2021
good lord, the apologists…
Image

guitfnky wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Reason is not a subscription. Reason+ is a subscription.

this isn’t difficult stuff, people.
No, it's not difficult. They're obviously pushing the sub (Reason+ as a service) ahead of everything. Is it consumer friendly? Compared to 10 years ago when there was no sub and your choice was "trial for 30-days; then buy or not", I absolutely agree with you. But now the choice is "trial for 30-days for $1; then buy or not". Is it the end of the world you're making it out to be? Nope - IMHO you're putting way too much effort into calling everyone who doesn't agree with that sentiment an "apologist".
so you do get my point. it's not consumer-friendly.

I know what the choice is. the reason it's consumer-unfriendly is BECAUSE that's the choice RS have left would-be users with.

I call people apologists when they make excuses for why a company making bad choices is somehow okay. of course it's not the end of the world. but if I were still a naive 19-year old, making the wage of an average 19-year old, and trying to get into music production, this is my only option to try Reason. RS made a decision that is objectively not consumer friendly which makes it more likely that my inexperienced young self will end up accidentally paying them more money than I mean to.

that's not a big deal to you or to me, but to those just starting out, that can throw off their budget for the month.

so let's recap...
- no, the sky isn't falling
- yes, if users sign up, it's on them to cancel
- yes, it's still a shitty, consumer-unfriendly decision, because...
- RS didn't have to put potential users in that position
- yes, if you think that's just a fine decision for them to have made, I think you're an apologist (but given the above, it doesn't sound like you necessarily do think it's just fine)
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joeyluck
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Post 08 Nov 2021

For what it's worth, they have rephrased it. Now they are saying "First month only $1".

Originally:

30 day trial for $1.png

Now:

Download Now - First month $1.png
First Month only $1.png
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joeyluck
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Post 08 Nov 2021

I've made a sticky in this forum about the demo mode for those who might not be aware or need a refresher.

I can understand Reason Studios maybe having some difficulty conveying the different between a trial of Reason+ and a demo mode of Reason without confusing customers.

But that said, now that Reason+ no longer has a free trial and is more clearly stated as "First month $1 only", perhaps that now gives more room to make a better distinction and mention of the restricted demo mode...

kbard
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Post 08 Nov 2021

joeyluck wrote:
08 Nov 2021
But that said, now that Reason+ no longer has a free trial and is more clearly stated as "First month $1 only", perhaps that now gives more room to make a better distinction and mention of the restricted demo mode...
I haven't checked myself, please may I ask do I understand you correctly. There is no free 7 day trial anymore?

They decreased trial from 30 days to 7. It was weird decision but me owning all their products I didn't mind it at all. We had some chat in my studio just last week when Martin (one of my friend) said: "They must be desperate to try onboarding people like that, mark my words they will remove 7 day trial and start charging people only to try software" which is when we argued because I said that will never happen because in DAW world such thing does not exist. We even placed a bet.

Please tell me I am wrong and that there's still free 7 day trial or :

1: I lost one beer and one pizza as a bet (not major but..what the?? - I was so sure in myself...oh well..)
2. I think that's very irrational and does not make a sense. No company in their right mind would deliberately choose not to offer their potential users a chance to try software. I don't know any company doing that?

I mean imagine what happens with young people which hare below 18 year and doesn't have CC. They now need to ask their parents to share parent CC in order for them just to try software. I think them having the chance to try as a free and fall in love with the software is far more enticing then making a hoops with their parents only to try software by getting their parent CC. Most of them will decide it isn't worth the hassle probably.

But in situation where they try 7 days for free and then start loving it, seems far more enticing and realistic that they will ask parents for CC isn't it or my logic is flawed?

It's not the price of 1$ it's the whole set of complication for people without CC to actually try software at least for 7 days.

I don't understand which genius decided to deliberately cripple young people to have chance to onboard by free trial.

p.s. sorry for bad english..

Up until today I really wasn't worried by all these people making noise how Reasonstudios is making weird decisions. Now I am lost and bit worried. Maybe I am just being silly. It wouldn't be the first time.
Last edited by kbard on 08 Nov 2021, edited 2 times in total.

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avasopht
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Post 08 Nov 2021

QVprod wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Yes, but you’re mentioning hidden forms of manipulation. If something is telling you blatantly what it is and you don’t keep up with it, that’s not the company’s fault. They told you what it was. Hidden fees and legal loop holes is an entirely different conversation.

Again, I agree there should be a free way of at least trying out just Reason standalone. Perhaps the unlimited demo mode still works though there’s no easy way of getting to it.
No problem with not having a free demo.

But if something says "free trial" or "1-month trial" and results in an unexpected subscription charge, then no, that's not "telling you blatantly what it is." It's the exact opposite, actually.

Again, I'm saying this based on the user interaction practices we all know in the industry. We all know how to increase or decrease the likelihood of an unintended purchase. And we all know that "free trial" is a form of manipulation.

You don't know this because you just don't know about the subject.

Again, this is very well studied.

This is very well understood.

I even shared a study with you. I didn't just conjure up the debate. This was covered on my second and third year at uni, so I know I'm not the only person on the planet who is aware of basic consumer psychology. And once more. ATM machines were changed to give you your money after your card because of a now well-known cognitive defect/feature all of our brains have. The entire discipline of advertising is predicated in subtle forms of manipulation - the very same ones that were used as propaganda during WWII (it's still technically propaganda but we just don't refer to it as that due to the connotations). Suffice to say, this is a well developed and understood subject.

There are shed loads of books on this (that would inform you of the exact same judgement) from various fields:
1. Marketing perspective.
2. Psychology perspective.
3. Cognitive perspective.
4. Design perspective.
5. Harm reduction perspective.
6. Policy perspective.
7. Analytics perspective.

This is not a debate. You just aren't aware of it.
Last edited by avasopht on 08 Nov 2021, edited 2 times in total.
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avasopht
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Post 08 Nov 2021

joeyluck wrote:
08 Nov 2021
For what it's worth, they have rephrased it. Now they are saying "First month only $1".

Originally:


30 day trial for $1.png


Now:


Download Now - First month $1.png


First Month only $1.png
Nice one :thumbs_up:

Tbh, I never had RS down for that, which is why I said that even charging $1 for the trial has the positive effect of making it less likely for people to forget to unsubscribe.
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kbard
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Post 08 Nov 2021

avasopht wrote:
08 Nov 2021

Nice one :thumbs_up:

Tbh, I never had RS down for that, which is why I said that even charging $1 for the trial has the positive effect of making it less likely for people to forget to unsubscribe.
Perhaps I am way too old person so don't judge me because of what I am about to say but to me it seems far more likely that person without CC which can try software for 7 days for free will ask their parents for CC and subscribe - if they fall in love with it during the 7 days or they think it's for them

as opposed to

asking parents, friends, uncles or whatever for CC only for them to be able to try software. Seems a a bit of a bottleneck isn't it? Like: dad can you provide me your CC I wanna try software. It only cost 1$. Dad thinking in their head: this must be some shitty scam, no great thing cost 1$ for 30 days but my child doesn't understand it yet.

Or something like that.

My point is - it seems way more plausible that people which are able to try software will onboard later and make their effort to get CC somehow.

I know it's a bad metaphor but imagine how likely drug would have success if first few times isn't for free :)

As you can see my english isn't first language so sorry if I am turning out funny.

Heater
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Post 08 Nov 2021

I understand that the Props are human beings trying to get the best product out that they can given whatever constraints they face but when they say we're going to release a new road map soon and we're starting the second week of November it really does somewhat irk me.

I know it must be tough for them but I bought a R12 upgrade on the back of that roadmap hoping that the features would be delivered on time. I understand schedules change but they could do a better job of communicating the changes and at least state when they would be able to release a new road map.

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Pepin
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Post 08 Nov 2021

For those actually interested in Reason+, I don't see much problem with auto-renewal after the trial.
But for other prospective users of Reason, there's no longer any obvious indication on the RS website that demo mode even exists:
Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.06.54 AM.png

A new user interested in buying Reason outright could easily see ^that^ and sign up for the trial with the understanding that it's the only way to demo Reason. If they end up buying Reason for $499, I don't think they should also have to remember to cancel their trial.
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joeyluck
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Post 08 Nov 2021

kbard wrote:
08 Nov 2021
joeyluck wrote:
08 Nov 2021
But that said, now that Reason+ no longer has a free trial and is more clearly stated as "First month $1 only", perhaps that now gives more room to make a better distinction and mention of the restricted demo mode...
I haven't checked myself, please may I ask do I understand you correctly. There is no free 7 day trial anymore?

They decreased trial from 30 days to 7. It was weird decision but me owning all their products I didn't mind it at all. We had some chat in my studio just last week when Martin (one of my friend) said: "They must be desperate to try onboarding people like that, mark my words they will remove 7 day trial and start charging people only to try software" which is when we argued because I said that will never happen because in DAW world such thing does not exist. We even placed a bet.

Please tell me I am wrong and that there's still free 7 day trial or :

1: I lost one beer and one pizza as a bet (not major but..what the?? - I was so sure in myself...oh well..)
2. I think that's very irrational and does not make a sense. No company in their right mind would deliberately choose not to offer their potential users a chance to try software. I don't know any company doing that?

I mean imagine what happens with young people which hare below 18 year and doesn't have CC. They now need to ask their parents to share parent CC in order for them just to try software. I think them having the chance to try as a free and fall in love with the software is far more enticing then making a hoops with their parents only to try software by getting their parent CC. Most of them will decide it isn't worth the hassle probably.

But in situation where they try 7 days for free and then start loving it, seems far more enticing and realistic that they will ask parents for CC isn't it or my logic is flawed?

It's not the price of 1$ it's the whole set of complication for people without CC to actually try software at least for 7 days.

I don't understand which genius decided to deliberately cripple young people to have chance to onboard by free trial.

p.s. sorry for bad english..

Up until today I really wasn't worried by all these people making noise how Reasonstudios is making weird decisions. Now I am lost and bit worried. Maybe I am just being silly. It wouldn't be the first time.
Yes Reason+ was originally 30 days for free, then 7 days for free, and now the first 30 days for $1.

So if you want to be able to open your saved projects, export audio, use the REs you've purchased you'll need to buy Reason. If you want that plus have access to all of the REs by Reason Studios, and access sound packs via Companion you would either need to subscribe to give Reason+ a spin for $1. It's unrestricted access to all of those features.

But Reason has always had a demo mode: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7525554

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EnochLight
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Post 08 Nov 2021

joeyluck wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Yes Reason+ was originally 30 days for free, then 7 days for free, and now the first 30 days for $1. ..But Reason has always had a demo mode: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7525554
:clap: :thumbup:
guitfnky wrote:
08 Nov 2021
but if I were still a naive 19-year old, making the wage of an average 19-year old, and trying to get into music production, this is my only option to try Reason.
Your other option is to try it in demo mode... for far longer than 30 days? I do get that it's not an obvious choice, though.
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avasopht
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Post 08 Nov 2021

Pepin wrote:
08 Nov 2021
For those actually interested in Reason+, I don't see much problem with auto-renewal after the trial.
But for other prospective users of Reason, there's no longer any obvious indication on the RS website that demo mode even exists:

Screen Shot 2021-11-08 at 10.06.54 AM.png


A new user interested in buying Reason outright could easily see ^that^ and sign up for the trial with the understanding that it's the only way to demo Reason. If they end up buying Reason for $499, I don't think they should also have to remember to cancel their trial.
You make a very good point.
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EnochLight
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Post 08 Nov 2021

Pepin wrote:
08 Nov 2021
If they end up buying Reason for $499, I don't think they should also have to remember to cancel their trial.
Why? I mean, again - I'm sure I'll be called an "apologist" :lol: but there is a certain level of aptitude required for buying and trying stuff. If it were me, and I subbed to try for $1 but at the end of the day, decided I wanted to buy a perpetual for $499, unless I have dementia I'd most certainly cancel my sub after buying it outright. If I forgot I subbed that easily, then I have bigger problems to worry about!
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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avasopht
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Post 08 Nov 2021

EnochLight wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Nov 2021
If they end up buying Reason for $499, I don't think they should also have to remember to cancel their trial.
Why? I mean, again - I'm sure I'll be called an "apologist" :lol: but there is a certain level of aptitude required for buying and trying stuff. If it were me, and I subbed to try for $1 but at the end of the day, decided I wanted to buy a perpetual for $499, unless I have dementia I'd most certainly cancel my sub after buying it outright. If I forgot I subbed that easily, then I have bigger problems to worry about!
I think the expectation is that it would either:
  1. Automatically cancel
  2. Raise an alert (recommended)
RS will know whether this becomes an issue as they'll be able to track exactly how many people this happened to, and even track what pages they visited, how long they spent on them, which FAQ pages they read, etc.

If out of 100 users who purchased Reason after trying it for $1, more than 5 of them contacted support to refund their last month or two of a subscription they thought wouldn't have continued once they purchased Reason, they'll know to adjust their comms.
---

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Pepin
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Post 08 Nov 2021

EnochLight wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Nov 2021
If they end up buying Reason for $499, I don't think they should also have to remember to cancel their trial.
Why? I mean, again - I'm sure I'll be called an "apologist" :lol: but there is a certain level of aptitude required for buying and trying stuff. If it were me, and I subbed to try for $1 but at the end of the day, decided I wanted to buy a perpetual for $499, unless I have dementia I'd most certainly cancel my sub after buying it outright. If I forgot I subbed that easily, then I have bigger problems to worry about!
You can blame users who fall into this trap all you want, but the trap wouldn't exist at all if RS didn't proactively create it.

It's user hostile design if you funnel prospective customers toward a trial for a product they don't want and then charge them for it even after they buy the product they did want from the beginning. RS could easily have linked the demo version on the shop page for Reason 12. That would have been the user friendly approach.

Yes, consumers should be careful when shopping, but that doesn't excuse companies who actively take advantage of consumers who aren't.

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QVprod
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Post 08 Nov 2021

avasopht wrote:
08 Nov 2021
QVprod wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Yes, but you’re mentioning hidden forms of manipulation. If something is telling you blatantly what it is and you don’t keep up with it, that’s not the company’s fault. They told you what it was. Hidden fees and legal loop holes is an entirely different conversation.

Again, I agree there should be a free way of at least trying out just Reason standalone. Perhaps the unlimited demo mode still works though there’s no easy way of getting to it.
No problem with not having a free demo.

But if something says "free trial" or "1-month trial" and results in an unexpected subscription charge, then no, that's not "telling you blatantly what it is." It's the exact opposite, actually.

I think this is where we are differing. I think the language is clear. Someone posted a screenshot above of the trial promo (both old and new) and the full price is listed. Nothing should be unexpected. Every example I've seen in other subscriptions and even utilities like cell phone services...etc... spell it out pretty clearly. I'd agree with you if there were a price jump with no prior warning at all.

I'm aware that it's common that people don't keep up with subscriptions and forget they're paying for things, but that doesn't change who's fault it is. Some companies will give you a reminder that a trial is ending. It's nice for those companies to do that (not sure if RS does or not), but I'm sure people still miss it even with that warning, and that can't be on anyone other than the individual.

What I do agree with most on is having easy access to a regular Reason trial in addition to the subscription trial. Even if they got rid of eternal demo mode and made it time out much like REs do.

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orthodox
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Post 08 Nov 2021

QVprod wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Some companies will give you a reminder that a trial is ending. It's nice for those companies to do that (not sure if RS does or not...
It does. Moreover, when the 1st month was free you didn't have to enter the card details until the first payment was due, so if you did not register your card, the trial month would end without subscription by default.

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Arrant
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Post 08 Nov 2021

So.. how about that roadmap? *sigh*

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SJLx84
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Post 08 Nov 2021

avasopht wrote:
08 Nov 2021
EnochLight wrote:
08 Nov 2021


Why? I mean, again - I'm sure I'll be called an "apologist" :lol: but there is a certain level of aptitude required for buying and trying stuff. If it were me, and I subbed to try for $1 but at the end of the day, decided I wanted to buy a perpetual for $499, unless I have dementia I'd most certainly cancel my sub after buying it outright. If I forgot I subbed that easily, then I have bigger problems to worry about!
I think the expectation is that it would either:
  1. Automatically cancel
  2. Raise an alert (recommended)
RS will know whether this becomes an issue as they'll be able to track exactly how many people this happened to, and even track what pages they visited, how long they spent on them, which FAQ pages they read, etc.

If out of 100 users who purchased Reason after trying it for $1, more than 5 of them contacted support to refund their last month or two of a subscription they thought wouldn't have continued once they purchased Reason, they'll know to adjust their comms.
Again I must ask what you hope this toxic pedantry will achieve?
Huawei Mate book D14, Ryzen 3500U, 8GB RAM, 512GB NVME m.2, NI Komplete Audio 1, Reason 12 w/11 Suite add ons, Renoise Redux & Synthmaster 2.9.9. All work fine for me so far. :reason: :refill: :re:

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dvdrtldg
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Post 08 Nov 2021

Every now & then I check this thread, just to remind myself why I should never check this thread

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guitfnky
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Post 08 Nov 2021

EnochLight wrote:
08 Nov 2021
joeyluck wrote:
08 Nov 2021
Yes Reason+ was originally 30 days for free, then 7 days for free, and now the first 30 days for $1. ..But Reason has always had a demo mode: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7525554
:clap: :thumbup:
guitfnky wrote:
08 Nov 2021
but if I were still a naive 19-year old, making the wage of an average 19-year old, and trying to get into music production, this is my only option to try Reason.
Your other option is to try it in demo mode... for far longer than 30 days? I do get that it's not an obvious choice, though.
how can you do that if you don’t have Reason or a subscription already? I’m asking because I honestly don’t know. if you can, that’s…something—but then to your point, it’s definitely not obvious, which leads us right back to the same place (it’s a shitty, unnecessary change).
I write good music for good people

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