VSTs are too small now in Reason 12

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earwig83
Posts: 165
Joined: 21 Mar 2015

Post 12 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
With the move to hi-res we're no longer relying on the OS to scale up the UI (chunky pixels and all) and by extension we also let VSTs open in hi-res and scale to the resolution and settings. Sadly it turns out many VSTs are not quite ready for this and expects the OS to handle the scaling. We're working on a solution where the default is letting the OS scale VSTs but being able to choose that per plugin. This should let modern VSTs built for hi-res work as intended while others can rely on OS zoom. This is only really relevant on Windows as on Mac that's handled differently. So hang tight and we should have this sorted soon!

As for the menu option being tucked away, that's kind of on purpose. The zooming we've implemented is to make up for any user preferences in resolution and scaling. At the basic level, we adapt to your screen resolution and OS settings but many people have preferences where they for example want all things in the OS really small but the program they're focusing on much larger. That's also why it scales the whole application and not just the rack.

In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)
Thank you for the reply, did not see it!

Good to hear you will have it work that way for VSTs moving forward. I simply cannot use maschine comfortably in R12 anymore and it is a big part of my workflow.

as for having dedicated plus minus buttons, I think this should be per window. Like rack, sequencer, mixer and we should be able to adjust for either. OR a global CTRL+/CTRL- functionality or whatever shortcuts work best.

Don't forget that the menu doesn't scale with the rest of the program currently and definitely needs to in order to make sense.

Thanks

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plaamook
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Post 12 Oct 2021

Funny thing about detached windows is that I never cared for them before, but now that we have floating VST's I'd like it if we could detach and float native devices as well.
If you dan't want to do this you won't need to use it and I wou;dn't want to replace the rach as it is. But I've found that it can be useful to be able to put one device next to another for a moment for any number of reasons and this can be quite tricky with the current system.
What would be perfect would be if you could drag to zoom these floaters but I'm sure that's asking too much.
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illlumen
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Location: Germany

Post 14 Oct 2021

Eddi-16 wrote:
08 Oct 2021
VST:

Would it be easy to implement, if the VST is behind some kind of "display" in the rack, so that they behave like any other rack device? So, actually the devices are behind a display already in the preview, but its small and you have to click it, that it pops up.
I imagine here some kind of "hardware rack display" design, that has one big display, maybe which addapts to vst's size, where the VST is loaded and you can use it in the rack direc tly, without popping up, via a display "touchscreen".
Yeah. I am working with VSTs a lot and I have to do a lot of clicking and "fixing" the windows so they don't disappear. Especially when I switch from rack view to the sequencer this can get really messy fast. I'd love to see VSTs being implemented in the rack like REs are. That would be really great!

enalena
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Joined: 26 Sep 2021

Post 27 Nov 2021

Any update on this? I'm still not able to use R12 because VST-s are too small.

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Faastwalker
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Post 27 Nov 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021


Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter. We're generally wary of having too many floating windows, it's not ideal design, but who knows!
I always thought the best solution, and actually the way I initially assumed hi-res /zoom would work in Reason, is that the rack would be the main part that has Zoom. But to make things best for all the different resolutions out there (are we up to 12k displays now?!) and accessibility etc. It would be really cool if you could have seperate zoom levels for each of Reason’s main windows.

I think the idea of floating windows in Reason is a big no no. It’s never had this before, beyond a couple of components and of course any VST plugs-ins you might open. Plus of course it breaks the cabling on the rear, as you said. As for how VST’s display in Reason in regards to hi-res. That’s not really Reason Studios issue is it? It’s really up to the VST devs to include Zoom to accomodate hi-res.

Hoboys
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Faastwalker wrote:
27 Nov 2021
That’s not really Reason Studios issue is it? It’s really up to the VST devs to include Zoom to accomodate hi-res.
That's just Reason cutting corners. There must be a zoom option for all separate windows - Sequencer, Rack, Mixer AND every VST inside reason (because every VST opens in a separate window DUH). What do they think is going to happen? All the VST developers will rush to make their UIs scalable just to comfort them?

Oh and by the way, the splash screen still looks low res.

What is that you say? I should lower my windows zoom to 100% so all the text becomes basically invisible on my 4k screen? Shall I throw away my monitor too?

Interesting fact: splash screens of other software manufacturers DON'T look low res even at 175% windows zoom.

How about RS just poke the donkey that made the splash screen to remake it with an adequate pixel count instead of making it everyone else's problem? I think they are pulling the same nonsense with VSTs, pointing fingers at 3rd party developers, where an end-all solution is right there in front of them.

crimsonwarlock
Posts: 29
Joined: 06 Nov 2021

Post 27 Nov 2021

Faastwalker wrote:
27 Nov 2021
I think the idea of floating windows in Reason is a big no no.
Absolutely! I moved from Reaper to RS because opening up several plugin windows one by one and positioning them in a way that made it at least workable to tweak a vocal chain or a drum buss chain (just to name a few) became really tedious. Having such fx chains available as a stack of rack units is a joy to work with. There are a few VST-plugins I still use in RS, but I'm moving those into combinators where possible, to integrate them into the rack way of working.
Faastwalker wrote:
27 Nov 2021
As for how VST’s display in Reason in regards to hi-res. That’s not really Reason Studios issue is it? It’s really up to the VST devs to include Zoom to accomodate hi-res.
This! The very few VST synths I use in RS are all resizable, and the fx that are too small are moving into combis, problem solved :D

Hoboys
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Post 27 Nov 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
, and the fx that are too small are moving into combis, problem solved :D
workarounds, workarounds, more workarounds. we need more workarounds. RRP is a sequencer workaround. More workarounds, please!

crimsonwarlock
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
Faastwalker wrote:
27 Nov 2021
That’s not really Reason Studios issue is it? It’s really up to the VST devs to include Zoom to accomodate hi-res.
That's just Reason cutting corners. There must be a zoom option for all separate windows - Sequencer, Rack, Mixer AND every VST inside reason (because every VST opens in a separate window DUH).
It is impossible to make a VST that has a hard-coded pixel-sized window scale, unless the VST dev implements something for that. This is the reason that some VST plugins have a few fixed zoom levels, as they actually incorporate the graphics for each zoom level.

Besides that, hosting VST plugins works through a VST container that is defined by the VST standard, and I seriously doubt that the VST standard has any support to send GUI scaling commands from the host to the plugin.

crimsonwarlock
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
, and the fx that are too small are moving into combis, problem solved :D
workarounds, workarounds, more workarounds. we need more workarounds. RRP is a sequencer workaround. More workarounds, please!
I rather like to have 'workarounds' (I'd call them options) then nothing at all for this.... like almost every other DAW. I've been using Reaper for more than a decade, and it has nothing on RS in this regard, even with its zillion customize options.

Hoboys
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Post 27 Nov 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021

It is impossible to make a VST that has a hard-coded pixel-sized window scale, unless the VST dev implements something for that. This is the reason that some VST plugins have a few fixed zoom levels, as they actually incorporate the graphics for each zoom level.
That's not needed. You're talking about using a nuke to kill a fly. The goddamn windows zoom scales VSTs up or down. ANY vsts.
crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
Besides that, hosting VST plugins works through a VST container that is defined by the VST standard, and I seriously doubt that the VST standard has any support to send GUI scaling commands from the host to the plugin.
This is completely backwards. The whole point of a VST container is for Reason to define this standard for VSTs. Once again, windows zoom can scale VSTs up or down.
crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
I rather like to have 'workarounds' (I'd call them options) then nothing at all for this.... like almost every other DAW. I've been using Reaper for more than a decade, and it has nothing on RS in this regard, even with its zillion customize options.
Workaround = poor craftsmanship. I like my tools to work.

crimsonwarlock
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Joined: 06 Nov 2021

Post 27 Nov 2021

You clearly have a very simplified view of how things work. Windows does NOT scale VST-windows, or ANY window for that matter. It's scales it's desktop and everything on it goes with it. Comes with its own set of problems too.

The VST standard is proprietary tech from Steinberg. Reason Studios have nothing to do with the implementation of that standard, and no control over it one way or another. Why do you think many new VST plugins are not available as VST2 and only as VST3..... because Steinberg says so.

Hoboys
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Post 27 Nov 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You clearly have a very simplified view of how things work. Windows does NOT scale VST-windows, or ANY window for that matter. It's scales it's desktop and everything on it goes with it. Comes with its own set of problems too.
You clearly assume anyone gives a %^@# about how it's done. RS can implement a magnifying glass on a per-window basis or whistle into a d$%# if that helps. I really don't care. I'm a musician and they've created a problem for me. Also, I paid for it.

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Billy+
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You clearly have a very simplified view of how things work. Windows does NOT scale VST-windows, or ANY window for that matter. It's scales it's desktop and everything on it goes with it. Comes with its own set of problems too.
You clearly assume anyone gives a %^@# about how it's done. RS can implement a magnifying glass on a per-window basis or whistle into a d$%# if that helps. I really don't care. I'm a musician and they've created a problem for me. Also, I paid for it.
What screen size are you working with and what resolutions are available to use?
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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crimsonwarlock
Posts: 29
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You clearly assume anyone gives a %^@# about how it's done.
Nope. I simply assume that there is an unmistakable difference between what is possible in reality and the fantasy land view where 'I want it, so it must be possible' seems like a reasonable approach. Have a nice one :D

Hoboys
Posts: 36
Joined: 19 Oct 2021

Post 27 Nov 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
Nope. I simply assume that there is an unmistakable difference between what is possible in reality and the fantasy land view where 'I want it, so it must be possible' seems like a reasonable approach. Have a nice one :D
You must have missed the part where Windows does it by default. Must be impossible then. Begone.
Billy+ wrote:
27 Nov 2021
What screen size are you working with and what resolutions are available to use?
I'm not looking for a workaround, but thanks.

crimsonwarlock
Posts: 29
Joined: 06 Nov 2021

Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You must have missed the part where Windows does it by default. Must be impossible then. Begone.
You must have missed the part where I explained that windows does not do what you claim it does :thumbup:

Hoboys
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Post 27 Nov 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You must have missed the part where I explained that windows does not do what you claim it does :thumbup:
It doesn't make VSTs UI larger?

crimsonwarlock
Posts: 29
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You must have missed the part where I explained that windows does not do what you claim it does :thumbup:
It doesn't make VSTs UI larger?
From your reasoning, it already solves your problem :clap:

Have a nice weekend, I'm done with this :puf_smile:

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Billy+
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021
crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
You must have missed the part where I explained that windows does not do what you claim it does :thumbup:
It doesn't make VSTs UI larger?
Would you mind listing the vst's you have issues with?
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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selig
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021

I'm not looking for a workaround, but thanks.
Then your options are limited. You can either move to another DAW that better meets your expectations, wait quietly and see what happens since you've made your point clear, or keep complaining to your fellow forum members. And if you choose to keep venting here while unwilling to explore any workarounds, I predict it will quickly get old for the rest of us.
We can only help those who want to be helped, and many of us are willing and able to help with workarounds - that's basically one of the main reasons why this forum exists in the first place!
Otherwise, (putting on my moderator hat now) please take it up with the folks at Reason Studios, because they (and not us) are the only one who can help you. :)
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Billy+
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Post 27 Nov 2021

selig wrote:
27 Nov 2021
Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021

I'm not looking for a workaround, but thanks.
Then your options are limited. You can either move to another DAW that better meets your expectations, wait quietly and see what happens since you've made your point clear, or keep complaining to your fellow forum members. And if you choose to keep venting here while unwilling to explore any workarounds, I predict it will quickly get old for the rest of us.
We can only help those who want to be helped, and many of us are willing and able to help with workarounds - that's basically one of the main reasons why this forum exists in the first place!
Otherwise, (putting on my moderator hat now) please take it up with the folks at Reason Studios, because they (and not us) are the only one who can help you. :)
I'm puzzled by the amount of vst's that aren't able to be resized considering that we've had high resolution displays for years but I'm even more puzzled by people who have software that isn't "ready" for the resolution "they" have chosen who then completely blame a 3rd party for the problems that they have created by being stubborn.

It's not a difficult problem to solve at an individual level but expecting one software developer to solve another's is crazy.
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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kitekrazy
Posts: 891
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Billy+ wrote:
27 Nov 2021
selig wrote:
27 Nov 2021


Then your options are limited. You can either move to another DAW that better meets your expectations, wait quietly and see what happens since you've made your point clear, or keep complaining to your fellow forum members. And if you choose to keep venting here while unwilling to explore any workarounds, I predict it will quickly get old for the rest of us.
We can only help those who want to be helped, and many of us are willing and able to help with workarounds - that's basically one of the main reasons why this forum exists in the first place!
Otherwise, (putting on my moderator hat now) please take it up with the folks at Reason Studios, because they (and not us) are the only one who can help you. :)
I'm puzzled by the amount of vst's that aren't able to be resized considering that we've had high resolution displays for years but I'm even more puzzled by people who have software that isn't "ready" for the resolution "they" have chosen who then completely blame a 3rd party for the problems that they have created by being stubborn.

It's not a difficult problem to solve at an individual level but expecting one software developer to solve another's is crazy.
It happens all of the time with VSTs. I've had plugins have different issues from DAW to DAW.

Hoboys
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Post 27 Nov 2021

crimsonwarlock wrote:
27 Nov 2021
Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021


It doesn't make VSTs UI larger?
From your reasoning, it already solves your problem :clap:

Have a nice weekend, I'm done with this :puf_smile:
Does or does not windows upscaling increase the size of VST UI?
selig wrote:
27 Nov 2021
Otherwise, (putting on my moderator hat now) please take it up with the folks at Reason Studios, because they (and not us) are the only one who can help you. :)
RS representatives are here in this thread, so I think my points are very well placed. My "venting" here is also with this gentleman who claims that RS can't fix the problem they've inadvertently created, when clearly a solution has existed for years (and at no cost of additional computing power, I might add). Moreover, this gentleman, despite being demonstrably incorrect, talks down and is being dismissive.

Using windows scaling, however, gives aliasing to certain Reason-the-DAW content, which is undesirable. This problem does not exist for other software manufacturers because perhaps they have done something differently. There are two possible solutions that I see here, which, as you've eloquently pointed out, must be deferred to RS:

1) Make their initial content scalable by windows without aliasing
2) Use the same tech as windows on a per-window basis

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Billy+
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Post 27 Nov 2021

Hoboys wrote:
27 Nov 2021

Also, seeing as there is an RS representative response in this thread AND the topic of the thread is quite appropriate, I feel like this is an ideal place to state they've messed up.
We all know they messed up and even they do as it was acknowledged as a priority for them all be it not everyone is affected in the same way, but there are a few things that you could do that would be more positive than arguing about it.

I would definitely be interested to know what vst's you are having problems with and I'm sure it would help others to, maybe someone is thinking about buying one which wouldn't be a good idea if it isn't working as expected.

If this is a problem that you didn't have in R11 maybe you could reduce your stress levels by using R11 as many have including me ;)
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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