VSTs are too small now in Reason 12

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
User avatar
deigm
Posts: 102
Joined: 10 Oct 2018
Location: Australia

Post 09 Oct 2021

All we need is separate application zoom for the mixer, sequencer and rack windows and an option to double click a device to have it expand to fill the rack window. Double click it again to return to normal view.

User avatar
Arrant
Posts: 442
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 09 Oct 2021

The first priority should be separate zoom for the entire rack window.

Avoid floating windows if possible.
Don't remove the rack navigator.
Improve the scrolling speed when dragging devices across a wide rack, this takes far too much time.

Next step: Ctrl+mousewheel to zoom the rack dynamically.

drun robots
Posts: 10
Joined: 07 Sep 2021

Post 09 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
...
Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)
I believe that the mixer, the rack and the sequencer would benefit a lot from having separated zooms - this could be implemented on the menu by simply separating the menu into three options, and a bit more gracefully if you would do something as ctrl +/- on the area you have the cursor on...

What is really annoying and should be fixed asap, is the current behaviour: you zoom in and the Menu bar, the browser and all gets zoomed together - I need to see the rack or the mixer better, not the browser, or the areas separators... I mean, I have a 32" monitor, and from a certain level of zoom up, the delay compensation button just disappears... and please - no floating windows, let's not transform the rack in a bunch of popping vst's.... cables are important.

By the way, why do I see some colour line glitches "behind" the mixer at certain levels of zoom, like 110%???
drunkrobots.bandcamp.com

User avatar
jam-s
Posts: 1707
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 09 Oct 2021

Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
I would absolutely hate that kind of implementation as it just does not feel like a virtual Rack with any kind of pop-up windows. Instead I'd rather like to have VSTs mapped into the Rack and then to have a dynamic zoom function for the Rack which should behave pretty much the same as in the sequencer (or CTRL+Mousewheel or CTRL + NumPad+/-).

To address your workflow issue, I'd rather like to have the option to have two (or more) Rack view windows open at the same time (maybe with the option to just show a single rack column).
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace. ... Pool's closed due to corona.

User avatar
plasticfractal
Posts: 116
Joined: 29 Oct 2016

Post 09 Oct 2021

This issue definitely needs to resolved. I don't think it's the poor VSTs' fault. They were fine before. For what it's worth, I still haven't found the "zoom" menu option. Maybe one day I will stumble upon it! But 100% seems to work for everything, except the tiny tiny VST windows, which is a usability issue.

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 216
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 09 Oct 2021

jam-s wrote:
09 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
I would absolutely hate that kind of implementation as it just does not feel like a virtual Rack with any kind of pop-up windows. Instead I'd rather like to have VSTs mapped into the Rack and then to have a dynamic zoom function for the Rack which should behave pretty much the same as in the sequencer (or CTRL+Mousewheel or CTRL + NumPad+/-).

To address your workflow issue, I'd rather like to have the option to have two (or more) Rack view windows open at the same time (maybe with the option to just show a single rack column).
Agree to disagree on the popup windows for native devices.
But I'm not sure what you mean by "VSTs mapped into the rack". Displaying VSTs inside the rack itself would cause all kinds of workflow issues imo, if that's what you mean. I'd have to collapse the sequencer and zoom to 200% every time I wanted to use Hive full size, for instance:
Screen Shot 2021-10-09 at 6.22.26 AM.png
Not to mention many VSTs aren't resizable and require keyboard/mouse focus for their own shortcuts, which would pose technical/ux challenges. Whatever the case, popup windows are obviously a divisive topic. I do like the idea of a split rack view to solve some of the same issues, though it also strikes me as more visually cluttered and GPU intensive.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
jam-s
Posts: 1707
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 09 Oct 2021

Pepin wrote:
09 Oct 2021
Agree to disagree on the popup windows for native devices.
OK.
Pepin wrote:
09 Oct 2021
But I'm not sure what you mean by "VSTs mapped into the rack". Displaying VSTs inside the rack itself would cause all kinds of workflow issues imo, if that's what you mean. I'd have to collapse the sequencer and zoom to 200% every time I wanted to use Hive full size, for instance:
Screen Shot 2021-10-09 at 6.22.26 AM.png

Not to mention many VSTs aren't resizable and require keyboard/mouse focus for their own shortcuts, which would pose technical/ux challenges. Whatever the case, popup windows are obviously a divisive topic. I do like the idea of a split rack view to solve some of the same issues, though it also strikes me as more visually cluttered and GPU intensive.
The main issue here is you using Reason in the combined window mode with Rack and sequencer visible at the same time, which imho is rather bad to work in. I prefer to have it seperated into 3 windows: one for each task (mixer, Rack, sequencer) or to use the other option of hotkey switches between the different views (F5, F6, F7) if I can only work on a single screen instead of two or three.

So having the Rack take the full screen is no problem and then with dynamic zoom even complex and large VST GUIs could also be just a part of the rack without causing issues.

But I suppose for VSTs an option switch to have them auto-mapped and scaled into the Rack could be a good thing as some of those GUIs are just horrible resource hogs.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace. ... Pool's closed due to corona.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 9314
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 09 Oct 2021

I am not a huge fan of floating windows in many cases, but for the reasons I had mentioned, it has its advantages.

When I want to hone in on something, it's typically one device at a time. I think it would also be less resource intensive to pop out one device into a window rather than have to zoom the entire rack when you really just want to focus on one or two devices.

People bring up the back of the rack, but it would actually gain the ability to view the front of the device (zoomed in a window) and the back of the rack at the same time. So then you could view Predator's UI at 180% and view the back of the rack at 80% or whatever you like.

And again, my other point is I feel it opens up the RE SDK in what could be made possible not being constrained by rack dimensions for other optional views and what would be considered acceptable by Reason users (non-skeuomorphic-wise) when presented in a pop-out window editor rather than in the rack.

The main point being, REs and their interfaces would remain in the rack. The window idea wouldn't replace that.

User avatar
friday
Posts: 320
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 09 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a ...
+1 "Just the device you're working on"

User avatar
nemesjs
Posts: 102
Joined: 07 May 2018

Post 10 Oct 2021

About VSTs appearing directly in the Rack, now that we have zoom capabilities, I don't see major problems with it, only advantages and consistency. One could see the VST in the rack AND ALSO have the possibility to pop it up as usual! (although that action would have to minimize the rack container for that instance of the VST - they would be mutually exclusive - either an instance of a VST would be showing open in the rack or on a pop-up window at a time)

Here's a demo image of what it could look like for Hive 2 VST:
Image

... for Klanghelm SDDR VST:
Image

... and for Adam Szabo's JP6K VST:
Image

User avatar
lowtom
Posts: 172
Joined: 29 Sep 2017

Post 10 Oct 2021

No floating windows please. VST in rack would be great and if it is not possible then let us see all parameters that are available in some generic way, split over several pages.
:reason: :refill: :re:

enalena
Posts: 2
Joined: 26 Sep 2021

Post 10 Oct 2021

Can you guys stop being off-topic?

This topic is about VSTs being too tiny in Reason 12, making it unusable.

This is a huge problem. Now I upgraded and I already opened my projects in R12 and now I can't open them in R11 anymore. I can't work like that, everything is super tiny and no, I'm not going to use windows magnifier, that would slow me down too much.

Can anyone provide a solution? I tried running Reason in compatibility mode but then everything is too blurry and my eyes hurt.

Can we expect to get this fixed in a new minor release or do we have to get used to it? This really sucks.

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 216
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

enalena wrote:
10 Oct 2021
Can we expect to get this fixed in a new minor release or do we have to get used to it? This really sucks.
It sounds like it should be getting fixed in a minor release, based on the second post in this thread...
MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
We're working on a solution where the default is letting the OS scale VSTs but being able to choose that per plugin. This should let modern VSTs built for hi-res work as intended while others can rely on OS zoom. [...] So hang tight and we should have this sorted soon!

User avatar
challism
Moderator
Posts: 3283
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Fanboy Shill

Post 10 Oct 2021

Yes, this is a problem. Disperser is smaller than the thumbnail!
Interesting that the Valhalla VSTs are normal sized in R12.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Players are to MIDI what synthesizers are to waveforms.
Image
ReasonTalk Rules and Guidelines

User avatar
miscend
Posts: 1907
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

Quarmat wrote:
08 Oct 2021

For people like me working on 2/3 screens the best options should have 3 indipendent zooms for each window (rack, seq, mix), and maybe a way to choose whether to zoom or not the transport bar and browser font size.

+1 this would be my preference. Have a slider on each window (rack, sequencer, mixer) for independently adjustable zoom levels.

User avatar
miscend
Posts: 1907
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

cgijoe wrote:
08 Oct 2021

I always thought the solution would be so have modular panels, somewhat like the 3D software Blender.

In this case you could switch each panel to be a different view of the rack. I do think something like smoother scroll wheel style zooming for individual panels could be really nice. I could see this being potentially extended to the mixer as well.

Image
Seems like an unnecessary strain on the GPU resources to me. What would be the advantage of having multi rack windows with different viewports? And how would that work in the Reason Rack plugin?

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 9314
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

enalena wrote:
10 Oct 2021
Can you guys stop being off-topic?

This topic is about VSTs being too tiny in Reason 12, making it unusable.

This is a huge problem. Now I upgraded and I already opened my projects in R12 and now I can't open them in R11 anymore. I can't work like that, everything is super tiny and no, I'm not going to use windows magnifier, that would slow me down too much.

Can anyone provide a solution? I tried running Reason in compatibility mode but then everything is too blurry and my eyes hurt.

Can we expect to get this fixed in a new minor release or do we have to get used to it? This really sucks.
See the comment by Mattias, the 1st reply in this thread.

In terms of VST scale:
We're working on a solution where the default is letting the OS scale VSTs but being able to choose that per plugin. This should let modern VSTs built for hi-res work as intended while others can rely on OS zoom. This is only really relevant on Windows as on Mac that's handled differently. So hang tight and we should have this sorted soon!
In terms of the discussion in the forum about rack zoom:
In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)
That is why the discussion has shifted a bit. We understand they are working on this Windows issue regarding VST scaling. I guess most have accepted that answer and users are now responding to the call for suggestions with rack zoom.

User avatar
miscend
Posts: 1907
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

nemesjs wrote:
10 Oct 2021
About VSTs appearing directly in the Rack, now that we have zoom capabilities, I don't see major problems with it, only advantages and consistency. One could see the VST in the rack AND ALSO have the possibility to pop it up as usual! (although that action would have to minimize the rack container for that instance of the VST - they would be mutually exclusive - either an instance of a VST would be showing open in the rack or on a pop-up window at a time)

Here's a demo image of what it could look like for Hive 2 VST:
Image

... for Klanghelm SDDR VST:
Image

... and for Adam Szabo's JP6K VST:
Image
This probably won't work without doing all sorts of hacks to get the VST to fit inside the width of the rack. And alot of developers use their own custom graphics libraries which would probably break if you dont render them in a separate window.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 9314
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

The hosting of VSTs in the rack was something I had suggested way back... along with more controls on the VST device.

I figured the device could stay more or less the same, and then have 'open' and 'detach' buttons.

I also thought that scrolling would help alleviate any sizing issues. Not optimal, but it would keep VSTs with the confines of the rack and you could always open it in a window.

VST-attached-with-knobs.png

But now we have the new Combinator! And all that needs is more control types, like stepped controls, and more than 32 controls.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
moofi
Posts: 389
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

Improving the rack workflow I would for starters simply implement:

Independent zooms for every section. Along the ability to move through zoom levels with the mousewheel e.g. while holding "Shift",
zooming where the mouse is hovering over, bascially like the sequencer zoom where you simply place the mouse over the area you want to zoom in.
If like you said it´s merely in the backlog, please make it possible to zoom with a keyboard short-cut at least, like "Ctrl" + "+/-".

For both implementations an optional "center-zoom on selected device(s)" like "Ctrl" + "Shift" + "+/-" .

Being able to move through the rack with the mouse while pressing the middle mouse button, not having to grab the rack bars. This would work also to navigate the sequencer.

In addition the mouse movement speed could introduce kinetic energy and thus enable kinetic scrolling (releasing the mousebutton during movement wouldn´t make the rack stop immediately but decelerate over time).

Increasing movement speed when getting closer to screen borders while dragging cables similar to how it was implemented in Reason 2.5. (honestly don´t know why it had been removed at some point.)

To point out or focus on a device or group of devices you could simply experiment with an optional overlay (semi-transparent) masking out-of-focus devices,
so no seperate windows are needed for that scenario I find.

Foldable rack columns like suggested and shown here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7524823


P.S.: Sorry, if the text colouring might be confusing, I´m just experimentally highlighting key passages of longer writings for easier nagivation :-D



MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
[...]

In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)

User avatar
Majestik Monkey
Posts: 668
Joined: 07 Jul 2015

Post 10 Oct 2021

miscend wrote:
10 Oct 2021
nemesjs wrote:
10 Oct 2021
About VSTs appearing directly in the Rack, now that we have zoom capabilities, I don't see major problems with it, only advantages and consistency. One could see the VST in the rack AND ALSO have the possibility to pop it up as usual! (although that action would have to minimize the rack container for that instance of the VST - they would be mutually exclusive - either an instance of a VST would be showing open in the rack or on a pop-up window at a time)

Here's a demo image of what it could look like for Hive 2 VST:
Image

... for Klanghelm SDDR VST:
Image

... and for Adam Szabo's JP6K VST:
Image
This probably won't work without doing all sorts of hacks to get the VST to fit inside the width of the rack. And alot of developers use their own custom graphics libraries which would probably break if you dont render them in a separate window.
Great Idea ' :clap: Floating Vst's Gets on my Tits in Reason :mrgreen:

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7446
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 10 Oct 2021

enalena wrote:
10 Oct 2021
Can you guys stop being off-topic?

This topic is about VSTs being too tiny in Reason 12, making it unusable.

This is a huge problem. Now I upgraded and I already opened my projects in R12 and now I can't open them in R11 anymore. I can't work like that, everything is super tiny and no, I'm not going to use windows magnifier, that would slow me down too much.

Can anyone provide a solution? I tried running Reason in compatibility mode but then everything is too blurry and my eyes hurt.

Can we expect to get this fixed in a new minor release or do we have to get used to it? This really sucks.
This is not "off topic" - the Reason Studios Product Manger himself asked for suggestions on how we'd like to see zoom improved in Reason standalone. So that's what we're discussing. Also, welcome to the Reasontalk forums.
Win 10 | Abelton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Sumsung 870 QVO 2 TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

User avatar
EnochLight
Moderator
Posts: 7446
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Useless Moderator

Post 10 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog.
^^ YES PLEASE ^^'

Exactly this. The way zoom works in the sequencer is exactly how I'd like to see rack zoom implemented - we need to be able to zoom into the rear of the rack as well, so pop-up windows would be a huge disservice to Reason, IMHO. I'd just like to have the rack in focus and be able to hit a hot-key and move my mouse scroll wheel and zoom the rack on the fly - from 100% all the way up to 250% and that's pretty much it. No need to zoom the transport; no need to zoom the browser. The mixer would be nice to also have this feature as well, BTW. :thumbup: :clap:

But yeah - please move this from the backlog to the middle/front log. :puf_bigsmile: :thumbup:
Win 10 | Abelton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Sumsung 870 QVO 2 TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

User avatar
nemesjs
Posts: 102
Joined: 07 May 2018

Post 10 Oct 2021

challism wrote:
10 Oct 2021
Yes, this is a problem. Disperser is smaller than the thumbnail!
Interesting that the Valhalla VSTs are normal sized in R12.
@challism There is something odd happening, I really don't understand... I'm using Reason 12 with my Windows in full HD (not 4K) in the PC I'm in right now and what I see is this for U-He Satin:
Image

for Disperser:
Image

and for Redoptor2:
Image

...all of those look very well and can even look very big! (????????)


[EDIT]Also in 4K I see no problem at all...
Image
[/EDIT]
Last edited by nemesjs on 11 Oct 2021, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
moofi
Posts: 389
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 11 Oct 2021

:thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up:
EnochLight wrote:
10 Oct 2021
[...]
But yeah - please move this from the backlog to the middle/front log. :puf_bigsmile: :thumbup:

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: eigenvee, Trendiction [Bot] and 3 guests