VSTs are too small now in Reason 12

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
earwig83
Posts: 165
Joined: 21 Mar 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

I don't get the point of having the ability to zoom in Reason if the VSTs are going to now look smaller than before. It makes it impossible to enjoy using VSTs that don't have a GUI magnification options. This includes all my sound toys, for example.

I'm really not impressed with the GUI implementation RS have done here. Plus the buried menu item for zooming is ridiculous. AND, it doesn't even scale the actual menu options! It's is actually pretty sad how half done this update has been.

I'm on a windows machine. My complaints aside, does anyone have a suggestion or tip on how to manage this stupidity?

User avatar
MattiasHG
Reason Studios
Posts: 426
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

With the move to hi-res we're no longer relying on the OS to scale up the UI (chunky pixels and all) and by extension we also let VSTs open in hi-res and scale to the resolution and settings. Sadly it turns out many VSTs are not quite ready for this and expects the OS to handle the scaling. We're working on a solution where the default is letting the OS scale VSTs but being able to choose that per plugin. This should let modern VSTs built for hi-res work as intended while others can rely on OS zoom. This is only really relevant on Windows as on Mac that's handled differently. So hang tight and we should have this sorted soon!

As for the menu option being tucked away, that's kind of on purpose. The zooming we've implemented is to make up for any user preferences in resolution and scaling. At the basic level, we adapt to your screen resolution and OS settings but many people have preferences where they for example want all things in the OS really small but the program they're focusing on much larger. That's also why it scales the whole application and not just the rack.

In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 216
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)
Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.

User avatar
Quarmat
Posts: 119
Joined: 11 Feb 2021
Location: Europe

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom.
Hey Mattias!

For people like me working on 2/3 screens the best options should have 3 indipendent zooms for each window (rack, seq, mix), and maybe a way to choose whether to zoom or not the transport bar and browser font size.

HR is a blast but I hate having a device fitting the whole size of a monitor (and looking damn good!) while on the other screen the transport bar uses 1/3rd of the vertical space!

Have a nice day and thank you for asking feedback!

User avatar
MattiasHG
Reason Studios
Posts: 426
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021
MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)
Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter. We're generally wary of having too many floating windows, it's not ideal design, but who knows!

User avatar
gullum
Posts: 1159
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Faroe Islands

Post 08 Oct 2021

Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021

Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
that to me is what VST disadvantage is over RE you open a VST window stay on top now after a few minutes you have no idea what track it belongs to with the rack as it is you always know what device is for what track

User avatar
Creativemind
Posts: 4486
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021


Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter. We're generally wary of having too many floating windows, it's not ideal design, but who knows!
Yeah it's a tough one. Zoom over functionality so to speak. It's hard to say without seeing both in action to decide which would be best but obviously you can't code both (zoom just rack or floating pop out with zoom.) I'm inclined to think zooming just the rack is best in keeping with Reasons rack paradigm (using say ctrl shift or ctrl alt and middle mouse wheel) but that floating window does sound good. The only thing with the floating window idea is how would that work in the Reason Rack Plug-In as you'd want whichever approach you decide upon to be uniform in both standalone and plug-in respectively. Is the vst floating window one of the reasons vst is not supported in the RRP?
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.42 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

User avatar
Noise
Posts: 387
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Lisbon

Post 08 Oct 2021

Anyone who has a dual screen 1080p + 4k and suffering from the small VST window, my advice is to make the 1080p the primary screen before starting a reason 12 session.
the "small" vsts should open properly in the 1080p.
Albums: BandCamp | Youtubz: Noise Channel
Projects: P1 Easy Remote Mapping | Personal Refill Sale Store: https://payhip.com/noisesystems

User avatar
Creativemind
Posts: 4486
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

Post 08 Oct 2021

gullum wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021

Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
that to me is what VST disadvantage is over RE you open a VST window stay on top now after a few minutes you have no idea what track it belongs to with the rack as it is you always know what device is for what track
You do, you play it and see which mix channel plays or sequencer lane lights up. I don't recall having a "which track does this vst belong to" issue in Reaper say when it operates this way.
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.42 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 216
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

gullum wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021

Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
that to me is what VST disadvantage is over RE you open a VST window stay on top now after a few minutes you have no idea what track it belongs to with the rack as it is you always know what device is for what track
I can't say I've had this problem, but I suppose it could be an issue if you use many copies of the same plugin. So there are tradeoffs.
Still, I think there's a benefit to being able to tweak a VST send effect while focusing the rack elsewhere, as an example. That's why the ideal for me would be supporting both views (rack and popup).

However, I can see a separate rack zoom being faster to implement. So maybe I'd prefer that if it means focusing on other features sooner :puf_smile:

User avatar
DaveyG
Posts: 1328
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021


Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter.
I'd suggest that the majority of Reason users rarely venture around the back of devices, although here on RT we have a strong bias towards those who do. Personally I like floating resizable windows and I'd love to be able to have a zoomed view on my second monitor that follows whatever rack device I have in focus. Kinda a "magnify what I am using" thing.

Lancaster
Posts: 16
Joined: 12 Aug 2021

Post 08 Oct 2021

In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. I


That sounds lovely to me. The only thing I don’t like at the moment is that everything zooms in. Separate zoom levels for mixer, rack, sequencer and browser would be awesome.

Personally I don’t like the idea of rack devices floating around. The whole appeal of reason is working in the rack. But if it’s optional then that at least pleases everybody.

User avatar
gullum
Posts: 1159
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Faroe Islands

Post 08 Oct 2021

Creativemind wrote:
08 Oct 2021
gullum wrote:
08 Oct 2021


that to me is what VST disadvantage is over RE you open a VST window stay on top now after a few minutes you have no idea what track it belongs to with the rack as it is you always know what device is for what track
You do, you play it and see which mix channel plays or sequencer lane lights up. I don't recall having a "which track does this vst belong to" issue in Reaper say when it operates this way.
that also the reason I don't use Reaper or any other DAW the workflow is not for me. In Reason I don't even need to play it to see what track it belongs to. to have it as an option I'm ok with but I think most agree that there are other more important things Reason needs at this time.

Eddi-16
Posts: 172
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

Post 08 Oct 2021

Zoom:

It would be the best for me, in my opinion, if you could seperately zoom the Rack, Mixer and Sequencer, thats all about zooming, please not too complicated, don't waste energy in fancy stuff like zoom every device seperatly or pop up every device seperately, put this time in the sequencer and recording flow, please.
But however, the independent zoom itsef is really important, right now I dont see some sequencer elements with 120% on my HP Notebook (Velocity for example, I have to switch back to 100% all time...very annoying user-experience) :D

VST:

Would it be easy to implement, if the VST is behind some kind of "display" in the rack, so that they behave like any other rack device? So, actually the devices are behind a display already in the preview, but its small and you have to click it, that it pops up.
I imagine here some kind of "hardware rack display" design, that has one big display, maybe which addapts to vst's size, where the VST is loaded and you can use it in the rack direc tly, without popping up, via a display "touchscreen".

BTW: reason looks really awesome now, its really nice!

Greets & a nice weekend

User avatar
Jackjackdaw
Posts: 1022
Joined: 12 Jan 2019

Post 08 Oct 2021

I don’t want to see the next ten years of development go in to tweaking rack zoom levels and funny windows. I vote for finishing the HD assets and moving on. I think the things that are currently HD look great.

cgijoe
Posts: 75
Joined: 13 Mar 2016

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter. We're generally wary of having too many floating windows, it's not ideal design, but who knows!
I always thought the solution would be so have modular panels, somewhat like the 3D software Blender.

In this case you could switch each panel to be a different view of the rack. I do think something like smoother scroll wheel style zooming for individual panels could be really nice. I could see this being potentially extended to the mixer as well.

Image

Philup
Posts: 84
Joined: 21 Feb 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021
MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
In the future we could implement a more "adjust as you go" zoom option for the rack, much like how you can already zoom in the sequencer in various ways. It's not something we're working on right now, but it's in the backlog. Related to that I'd love to hear some input on how you'd like to use a specific Rack Zoom. Would you like to zoom the entire rack? Just the device you're working on? The device group you're working on? In the same window or zoom up an extra window like Mac's preview? Would you like the rest of the interface to be visible or use it as a "focus mode"? All input's appreciated :)
Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
I prefer fewer floating windows. I feel like the rack is the pop out. We just need the ability to quickly zoom in and out on the rack devices and improve device focus switching.

How about this idea?...

What if they replaced the "navigator" pane on the rack with a "focus" pane. You could drag instruments you created in the rack over to the "Focus List" pane. This will maintain a list of devices you loaded into your rack that you want quick access to. There would be a picture of the the device with the patch name underneath it similar to what is in the browser. You could add/remove devices to the "focus" pane depending on what you happen to be working on at the time. Once you click on an item in your focus pane, it jumps to that device and zooms into it according to the project settings.

User avatar
nemesjs
Posts: 102
Joined: 07 May 2018

Post 08 Oct 2021

Philup wrote:
08 Oct 2021
How about this idea?...

What if they replaced the "navigator" pane on the rack with a "focus" pane. You could drag instruments you created in the rack over to the "Focus List" pane. This will maintain a list of devices you loaded into your rack that you want quick access to. There would be a picture of the the device with the patch name underneath it similar to what is in the browser. You could add/remove devices to the "focus" pane depending on what you happen to be working on at the time. Once you click on an item in your focus pane, it jumps to that device and zooms into it according to the project settings.
I love this idea. Makes a lot of sense, it's practical, simple and obvious but I think it should be placed in a separate lower section of the navigator. The upper section should maintain the current navigator function that works like a map and is quite useful.

As to the Zoom, for various reasons I find myself zooming out and in all the time and so the fact that it is hidden inside a menu, I'm sorry Mattias but for me does not make much sense and its just more mouse clicks. The options on the menus could be maintained for those who prefer to keep to a zoom level every time but at the very least a combination of keys to get to all the zoom options should be available. Much better yet, a simple use of CTRL key plus the scroll button of a mouse (in windows) would be great - just like how web browser zooms work - everything is zoomed in or out easily (except the menus and tabs)!

As for Zooming of the entire rack only/ only one rack extension or group / pop up windows VST like:
- Zooming in and out of the entire rack is a very good idea and should be implemented independent of the main zoom option that affects the transport bar and other sections;
- Zooming on only one rack extension at a time is complicating things and should be avoided in my opinion;
- Pop up window containing a zoomed out rack extension (VST like) could be interesting but there should be a zoom level user defined preference for all pop-ups;
- Zooming in and out should be completely independent for each of the 3 main sections: Mixer / Rack / Sequencer:
One may want a very zoomed out overall view for the mixer (to be able to see lots of channels, vu levels, etc) but also maintain a quite zoomed in view of the rack, for ex. Either way, if the CTRL key and mouse wheel would be used (in Windows), then it should affect only the section where the mouse point is hovering - if the mouse is on the transport bar (for ex.) than it should affect the main app total zoom that is currently implemented.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 9314
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021


Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter. We're generally wary of having too many floating windows, it's not ideal design, but who knows!
I think this would be handy as well. While I don't favor floating windows, there are some benefits as mentioned.

Another one for me, similar to accessing two different devices opposite ends of the rack, is for instance viewing an instrument and a player device at the top of a big player chain. Whereas without individual player folding, I can't view those players at the top of the chain and my instrument on the same screen.

I feel like also being able to zoom individual devices would help to mitigate graphics handling in many cases. Just the same as people say, "My VSTs have been hi-res and they simply work without lag or any perceivable loading time." But that's just it—those are only having to load those graphics for those individual VSTs rather than an entire rack all at once. And while Reason's graphics loading has greatly improved, it's still not instant and still laggy for many users.

Another concept that comes to mind with pop-out windows for rack devices is it perhaps opens up an opportunity for the RE format to grow in other ways. For instance, maybe down the road a RE SDK feature could be added where the pop-out window of a RE could not only display the RE's GUI (as it is in the rack) at any zoom level, but perhaps RE devs could have the option to also offer an advanced edit type UI that doesn't have to fit the rack dimensions. And while there isn't the requirement for RE devs to make their GUIs skeuomorphic, many just do because it feels like the natural thing to do with the rack...and Reason users appreciate that and we understand the benefits. But there are also benefits to UIs not constrained by the rack, and many devs and users would feel it more acceptable for that pop-out display to not only offer a zoom option of the rack interface, but be able to offer a UI that is not skeuomorphic.

So for me, just like working with VSTs, most of the time I am just looking to hone in on one device at a time if I'm looking to zoom. And if doing the window approach, then we could also still have access to the rest of the rack and cabling (without changing that zooming). Very handy too to have access to the individual zoomed interface and the back of the rack at the same time. And you'd still have the ability to zoom multiple devices with however many you want to pop-out into windows.

User avatar
zoidkirb
Posts: 703
Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia

Post 08 Oct 2021

I really just wanna zoom the whole rack, and have the mixer /sequencer /browser /f8menu at their own level. And then either give size options for the transport or allow us to hide it.

Please, no RE floating windows. We already have that workflow available with VSTs, or by using the RRP.

One thing I do crave is visibility options in the rack. For instance, an option to solo a Combinator, and only have that Combinator visible in the rack. Or perhaps only view that Combinator plus anything it is attached to via CV or audio cables.

User avatar
integerpoet
Posts: 295
Joined: 30 Dec 2020
Location: East Bay, California

Post 08 Oct 2021

DaveyG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
I'd suggest that the majority of Reason users rarely venture around the back of devices…
Um… I haven't observed many R users other than myself (and YouTube megastars of course), but this still seems unlikely to me.

User avatar
gullum
Posts: 1159
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Faroe Islands

Post 08 Oct 2021

zoidkirb wrote:
08 Oct 2021
I really just wanna zoom the whole rack, and have the mixer /sequencer /browser /f8menu at their own level. And then either give size options for the transport or allow us to hide it.
you can hide the transport it's in the menu Window menu

pquenin
Posts: 84
Joined: 31 May 2016

Post 08 Oct 2021

The VST plugin Air Music Loom II is truncated in R12. In R11, it's OK and bigger...

User avatar
Greg Savage
Posts: 65
Joined: 02 Oct 2021

Post 08 Oct 2021

MattiasHG wrote:
08 Oct 2021
Pepin wrote:
08 Oct 2021


Not speaking to OP's issues, but I'd personally like it if individual rack devices could be opened up in separate popup windows similar to VSTs.
They could have an independent zoom settings and a "Keep Open" setting just like VST. Maybe also a button to focus the full rack to that device.

This would let us work with devices at opposite sides of the rack without having to scroll back and forth. It would also let us collapse the rack entirely while still being able to tweak a particular device.

Those are actually advantages VSTs have over native devices in the rack currently.
An interesting thought, every single jack at the back of the device would be useless in that mode but I guess for some that doesn't matter. We're generally wary of having too many floating windows, it's not ideal design, but who knows!
I do like that idea, but you also make a good point about the back of the devices.
Music Composer/Sound Designer
Credits | Music Licensing |

User avatar
zoidkirb
Posts: 703
Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia

Post 08 Oct 2021

gullum wrote:
08 Oct 2021
zoidkirb wrote:
08 Oct 2021
I really just wanna zoom the whole rack, and have the mixer /sequencer /browser /f8menu at their own level. And then either give size options for the transport or allow us to hide it.
you can hide the transport it's in the menu Window menu
That's great man thanks. I realise too that I can have the Transport up on the Sequencer page on my 2nd monitor but off on my Rack screen. So much better. Of course the Transport is still a bit chunky there too but for me it's more manageable.

I'd still also love the option to scale down the Browser window by about 30%.

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: Trendiction [Bot] and 3 guests