Reason and Huge Track Counts

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 15 Sep 2021

This isn't making Reason crash, just not actually work "fit for purpose". They could even dubiously claim it is working perfectly seeing the Disc indicator lights up. I would debate that tho based on marketing Unlimited Track Counts (until your CPU or Drive chokes) seeing both are still in the game*

I have sent another please respond to RS. I don't like doing it but I also don't like being ignored or made to look unprofessional by software that claims to be Pro, especially after all the championing I have done for them over the decades - and even right now as their software is not exactly helping me make music (let alone income).

*as proved by the files working fine in a new project with no extra work done and in Harrison Mixbunk.

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 15 Sep 2021

Mr Fixr

I ran the Save & Optimize (which I assume to have the same essential function) on today's 1hr podcast after watching file size climb over 15 mins of editing and it dropped right back to essentially the size of the single mono audio file at 628MB It was over 1.8GB!

Maybe this can work too in a multitrack mix???

:-)

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 04 Oct 2021

This is new

I loaded a Song (about 40 tracks) already mixed for a Mastering ReGig and it took a while for the audio track waveforms to start ot populate. then the Calc pie started. The track seems to play tho... which is something.

Image

:-)

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thefixr
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Post 04 Oct 2021

Benedict wrote:
15 Sep 2021
Mr Fixr

I ran the Save & Optimize (which I assume to have the same essential function) on today's 1hr podcast after watching file size climb over 15 mins of editing and it dropped right back to essentially the size of the single mono audio file at 628MB It was over 1.8GB!

Maybe this can work too in a multitrack mix???

:-)
I don’t see why it wouldn’t. It’s a great way to keep things slim and trim.
YouTube.com/iamthefixr

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 04 Oct 2021

Sadly once "the issue" has occurred, things like Save & Optimate don't work anymore, will even hang entirely.
Save and Oviate is proving very good for the podcast thing tho so thanks for the reminder on that process (the right-click Remove Doubles is always greyed out - probably I have learned not to duplicate randomly).

This is the issue. IT IS BROKEN.

Further, the Calc pie has been running all morning whilst doing nothing but making patches with one Thor and one Mimic in the game (after a new Reason start)

Yep, BROKEN.

:-)

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mcatalao
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Post 05 Oct 2021

Sometime ago I did tests with my rig in reason 10 and I could run up to 400 mono tracks with the ssl dynamics and eq on in a fairly humble system. However these were copies and reason would just point to the same file in the project /hdd.

At that track count I'd start by selecting all tracks and disable stretch as it might be a big bottleneck there and reason has no need to calculate stuff on solely mixing projects. So as soon as you import your audio disable time stretch in all clips and save the project.

Then there's the disk speed issue though if my math is correct any ssd above the 200MB/s practical value is enough for even a 200 track count project. At 120 track even at 96kHz you are way under 100 MB/s and you should be Allright with this. However if you're creating your project in the same drive as the scratchpad is and you have reason calculating stuff I wouldn't bet if things would be stable a while these tasks are on.

At recording my rig can do 36 track and I can do some more real tests with real files but I'm inclined to say without any effects at all reason should not have either a bottleneck from a ssd or be the bottleneck itself.

Now to dismistify stuff, reason does load a bit of ram for each channel. But this is expected at any daw it must load some working ram for the audio buffer to get filled, transformed by any amount of plugs you have and then fed to the audio card. But this is pretty standard in any daw, with the difference that in reason you have no control over the amount of ram you give to each channel. For example Cubase's older versions allowed you to define this. However the amount of ram it loads for audio is nothing compared to the size of the file you create in reason. Reason opens with 400 to 700 MB ram wich is staggering compared to other daws but the increase in ram from audio files is small and the audio is not loaded fully to ram. Not to confuse with samples wich are a different matter. Reason samplers do load everything into ram whereas other samplers can load a working amount and stream from hdd. Again the better and faster the hdd/ssd more reliable and stable the process will be.

Graphics might be an important issue too. This is the point where you shouldn't disregard the props advices and I remember a pretty obscure chapter in the manual about performance that advised to fold (close) all devices in the rack. It's fairly easy to do that, just hit one of the devices fold button with alt pressed.

Finally, I have a little difficulty grasping the idea of a 120 track project. Most of my bigger projects are 50 to 60 tracks and that's a stretch with dubs and stuff like that.

Hope this helps a bit!
Good luck.

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 06 Oct 2021

Interesting: One track duplicated 300 times is probably a very different application load than 126 unique tracks. if it were a bottleneck, it would likely unclog itself after some time. Also, performance would degrade across some sort of curve, even if it was a bit brutal.

This is:
a) File works, then too many more (unique) tracks and it won't at all, or
b) One minute it works dandy with all the tracks, the next the project is irrevocably broken.

That screams memory leak or similar issue.

It is that RS seems deliberately not to want to address this that annoys me most. If they said, yes the system we employ to give you all the cool things you love is great until X that would be fine with me. It is probably a fair trade if I understand.

As for 120+ tracks in a project. It is a lot for Rock, but his fellow likes to have lots of texture. In this particular track we are essentially creating a Pirates Of The Caribbean type scene with a little orchestra and lots of sound effects to back his many many layers of vocals to greater gangs and choirs. It is always worth it in the end. This is a lesser track count song but still way above average:


:-)

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Benedict
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Post 08 Nov 2021

I had Reason do this "play only some of the tracks whilst crying about HDD" again today. Again in front of a client. A client who then left with me left looking stupid.

This was a reasonably small mix ~70 Tracks all in 16/44 under 6GB project size. I set up the mix. Closed Reason. Opened it and did some more setup. All good, seemed stable. Closed, went, and had lunch.

The client arrived and we did some alterations on a 200 track mix that was in Reaper and all excited we opened the next song in Reason where we both prefer to work, only to have it play properly for a few bars then things stopped playing and the blue light of Ha! came on and that was all she wrote.

We did bigger mixes than this in R11 with no issues whatsoever. Now I cannot trust Reason 12 for anything much more than playing about.

I am wondering if I get R11 back (except the d'load is impossible to find) or simply say, this is a sinking ship and go buy Bitwig (Fender + Studio One is not reassuring - plus I just like Bitwig better).

:-(

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Arrant
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Post 08 Nov 2021

R12 is not production ready. Using it with a client is asking for trouble, IMO. Stick with 11 for now.

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Ottostrom
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Joined: 13 May 2016

Post 08 Nov 2021

Very concerning issues :/
I've noticed that every time I open up a bigger project with multiple audio files the calc wheel has to load for quite some time. I'm fairly sure this was not the case in R11, and I don't know what would need to be calculated since any stretched version of the audio should already be saved.

zumBeispiel
Posts: 225
Joined: 16 Jul 2015

Post 08 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
08 Nov 2021
...
I am wondering if I get R11 back (except the d'load is impossible to find)
...
Perhaps I didn't get it right...
Here are R11 from 11.0.1 to 11.3.9, both mac and pc:

https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/updates


As an example 11.3.6:
https://a.phcdn.se/update/Stable/Reason ... 55-Win.zip


They are full versions, not updates :thumbup:

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 08 Nov 2021

It is a worry indeed. I used to like that Reason never fell over, people would be impressed at how casual I could be about crashing. Now not so much... R12 just is not ready for the world.

Thanks for the link. I wonder why it is not easy to access??

:-)

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 09 Nov 2021

R11 loaded and given its Default Template. Feels like it should. Swift, smooth, confident (or maybe that is how I feel with it being swift, smooth...).

The first client track put in for tomorrow, so far, so good. This one is pretty small with 34 tracks.
Image

Now I am loading the song that failed yesterday in R12 despite being fine at first. 71 tracks (5.37 GB) is bigger but not huge, so shouldn't have failed/corrupted seeing we have done larger pre-R12.
Image

We shall see how they go after being opened, saved, closed etc. And fingers crossed for tomorrow or it might just be hello Bitwig...

:-)

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BRIGGS
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Location: Orange County California

Post 09 Nov 2021

Arrant wrote:
08 Nov 2021
R12 is not production ready. Using it with a client is asking for trouble, IMO. Stick with 11 for now.
Same experience here. R12 is just a fun toy, for now.

R11 Suite is for getting work done.

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 10 Nov 2021

The 34 track Country mix went wonderfully today in R11. Not a hitch and in about 3.5 hours we went from raw tracks to a mix that sounds great aginst others in the album and one I played to show another local-ish artist (even tho that mix is a bit odd, trying to hide the vocalist which is so wrong, esp in real Country).

For the technically obsessed, you will be delighted to know that I used side-chaining to keep the vocal and violin happy together: Vox>Spider>Sweeper>CV>Robotic Bean Compare CV Scope> Selig Gain. My ProFools client was suitably impressed.

:-)

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miscend
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

Post 10 Nov 2021

I tried the R12 demo and did not notice much difference with R11 at all. Apart from the new GUI and the new sampler. So I'm quite shocked there are all these performance issues. They must have changed something under the hood that's causing all sorts of problems.

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 10 Nov 2021

Yeah, I don't think anybody really knows - maybe least of all RS :-O

My guess is that maybe there are issues with a) interfacing with video cards, b) memory leaks. The two may even be related.

Time will tell.

:-)

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