Reason 12 vs Ableton Live 11.1 update...Wow

Want to talk about music hardware or software that doesn't include Reason?
jaeproduced
Posts: 127
Joined: 29 Apr 2020

Post 29 Sep 2021

Ok so I'm not a Ableton user Reason 12 Only but my god I ran across the update release notes for Ableton 11.1 and it's ridiculous compared to Reason 12...I know some will say this is apples vs oranges but come on maybe I should rethink my allegiance.


Native Apple Silicon Support
Live 11.1 adds native support for Apple M1 computers.

Note: The beta auto-update from 11.0.10b3 is still based on the Intel architecture. If you are on an M1 machine, please download the universal installer from Centercode.

Arrangement View Improvements
You can use the Arrow Left key to navigate from an automation lane or take lane to the main track, this will fold the lanes as well. You can also use the Arrow Left key to navigate from tracks in a group to the main Group Track.

The Arrow Left/Right shortcut has been added to the Arrangement Track Title Bar info text. The shortcut folds/unfolds the track.

The Arrow Left/Right shortcut has been added to the Toggle Additional Automation Lanes info text. The shortcut folds/unfolds additional automation lanes.

Browser
A new Devices icon has been added to Live’s Browser:

When viewing Sets in the browser, you will see a Devices icon for device chains on a track that contain at least one device.

When you expand a Live Set in the browser, either from the Current Project folder, Templates folder, or a folder of Sets you have added in Places, you can unfold the tracks in the Set to reveal their device chains. These chains can then be moved into the current open Set using drag and drop or by double-clicking on the chain. The Device settings from the original Set are retained but any previously recorded automation is not.

Capture MIDI
The first note is placed at the start of the captured clip in phrases that are eight bars or less.

When using Capture MIDI while other clips are also playing, the longer phrase that was played will be captured in a new clip.

The loop boundaries are set to include a played note if it extended beyond the final bar.

If only one long note is played, Capture MIDI will set the loop boundaries to one, two, four, or eight bars. The tempo is set accordingly.

In Session View, new captured clips now use the “Adaptive Grid: Narrow” setting instead of “Fixed Grid: 1/16.”

Clip View
Added responsive Clip View options:

In Clip View, all clip properties are now displayed in tabs instead of additional panels. The tabs in Clip View can be arranged vertically or horizontally by selecting “Arrange Clip View Panels Vertically” or “Arrange Clip View Panels Horizontally” from the View menu.

When Clip View panels are arranged vertically, the individual tabs (e.g. Clip, Audio, Envelopes, etc) can be collapsed and expanded using the arrow icon to the right of the tab header.

When Clip View panels are arranged vertically, the individual tabs (e.g. Clip, Audio, Envelopes, etc) can be folded/unfolded using the Arrow Left/Right keys.

Sample information for audio clips (e.g. sample name, sample rate, etc) is also displayed in the Clip View and appears differently in the vertical/horizontal view modes.

Clip View panels can now be accessed using keyboard shortcuts. In MIDI clips, ALT + 1 switches to the Notes panel, ALT + 2 switches to the Envelopes panel, and ALT + 3 switches to the Note Expression panel. In audio clips, ALT + 1 switches to the Sample panel and ALT + 2 switches to the Envelopes panel.

The chosen Responsive Clip View mode is now saved in Live’s Preferences.cfg file.

When multiple audio clips are selected, the sample properties (sample rate, bit depth, and channel count) for all samples will be displayed in the Clip View. If a value is not the same for all samples, the character “*” will be displayed. In Clip View, you will also see the total number of samples selected.

Comping
You can now duplicate selected take lanes using the keyboard shortcuts CMD + D (Mac) / CTRL + D (Win), or by right-clicking on the take lane header and selecting “Duplicate.”

Changing the color of a clip in a take lane changes the color of the corresponding clip in the track’s main lane and vice versa. Splits are created on the updated clips in certain cases when the relation between other highlights on different clips change.

The horizontal lines that separate multiple take lanes match the color of the clips that are in those lanes.

When renaming multiple tracks or take lanes using the context menu option, you will see the edit field when you right-click on a track or take lane.

Control Surfaces
When navigating between devices on a selected track with the PreSonus ATOM SQ, you can now scroll between devices by holding the navigation buttons down.

If an invalid CC, note, or channel value is used in a UserConfiguration.txt file, the associated User Remote Script can still be loaded.

CPU Meter
The CPU meter drop-down menu now can be customized to display:

both the Average or Current CPU usage levels

only the Average level, with the Current level switched off

only the Current level, with the Average level switched off

Alternatively, the CPU meter can also be switched off entirely.

By default, Live will not display the Current level; it must be enabled from the drop-down menu.

Interface
You can use the left and right arrow keys to navigate radio buttons anywhere in Live. If you are navigating radio buttons on a device that is inside of a Rack with the left and right arrow keys, you can get back to moving between devices in the Rack using the left and right arrow keys by hitting the ESC key.

In Session and Arrangement View, the Monitor radio buttons now have a default state that can be restored. When the In/Out section is expanded, you can press the Delete key to reset the Monitor radio buttons to the default (“Off” for audio tracks and “Auto” for MIDI tracks). This option is also accessible via the Edit menu option “Return to Default.”

The Quantize Settings dialog buttons in the MIDI Note Editor now say “Apply” and “Close” instead of “OK” and “Cancel.”

Deactivated device title bars are easily readable in all Live Themes, even if the device is selected.

An error message will be displayed in the status bar if an auto-update cannot be downloaded.

Added a new "MIDI Envelope Auto-Reset" entry to the Options menu:

When enabled, certain MIDI control message types that are not automated for a given clip will automatically reset at the start of a new clip.

Note: for users who intentionally work opposite to this behavior, enabling this change will make corresponding Live Sets behave differently.

In Live 11.0.5, "MIDI Envelope Auto-Reset" is disabled by default.

In Live 11.1, "MIDI Envelope Auto-Reset" is enabled by default for new Sets, and disabled by default in older Sets.

Updated various info texts.

Updated some Help View lessons.

Max for Live
Updated the bundled Max build to version 8.2.0 Beta 665eec0.

It is now possible to call select_notes_by_id on a Clip object in Max for Live, passing a list of note IDs. This will select only those notes that have the provided IDs.

Link functions have been added to the Max for Live API.

You can access the IDs of newly created notes using the Python API or the Max for Live API.

It is possible to get a dictionary of all the notes in a MIDI clip using the Python API or Max for Live.

When Max fails to load, an error message will be displayed that contains a link to a Knowledge Base article that explains potential causes for the issue and steps to take to resolve it.

Error reporting in the Max Window is more consistent.

Four new theme colors are available in Max for Live.

amxd~: ‘realtime_params’ attr for realtime report of parameter data from outlets

Dynamic Colors: ability to use a name which references a dynamic color (follows Live or Max color themes)

live.adsr~ / live.adsrui: new objects

MPE
Added an MPE Settings dialog box to the I/O section of Live’s mixer. You can use the settings to:

configure the MPE zone and range of note channels used by Live when sending MPE to an external MIDI device or plug-in

select the upper or lower zone and number of note channels

select multi-channel mode, which sets an arbitrary range of note channels

The above MPE settings can be used for hardware synths that require a specific MPE configuration, or plug-ins that do not officially support MPE but can be used with MPE controllers due to their multi-timbral support.

Multi-Clip Editing
Time selection interactions, note selection interactions, and new note editing options have been added to multi-clip editing:

Time in the MIDI Note Editor can be selected across loop and clip boundaries.

Note editing (e.g. copy, cut, paste, delete) can be used when working with note selections across clips and loop boundaries.

Notes can be cut or copied from multiple clips and inserted into the same set of clips, as long as the clip selection/foreground clip has not changed, or into a different clip once that new clip has been selected.

Selected loop bars can now be duplicated using the context menu or the CMD + D (Mac) / CTRL + D (Win) keyboard shortcuts.

In Arrangement View, it is possible to draw notes in background clips without first changing the foreground clip. Notes can also be drawn continually across clip boundaries, except in Focus Mode.

When using a pen to draw notes with "Draw Notes with Pitch Lock" enabled, any notes that cross a loop boundary are no longer deleted.

When more than 64 clips or eight tracks are selected in Arrangement View, the MIDI Note Editor is no longer available for multi-clip editing to prevent potential performance issues.

New Devices and Device Improvements
Introduced "Shifter", a new audio effect in Live Standard and Suite. Shifter is a multi-purpose audio effect for pitch shifting, frequency shifting, and ring modulation. The pitch or frequency of incoming audio can be tuned using Coarse or Fine parameters and further adjusted with a Tone filter and Window parameter. Shifter also has Delay, LFO, and Envelope Follower sections for additional modulation. The Shifter device can set pitch or frequency using its own parameters or by incoming MIDI notes.

Introduced the Align Delay device, which is now included in the set of Max for Live devices that come with a Suite license, or a Standard plus Max for Live license. Align Delay is a Max for Live device that delays incoming signals by samples, milliseconds, or meters/feet.

Introduced the MIDI Shaper device, which is now included in the set of Max for Live devices that come with a Suite license, or a Standard plus Max for Live license. MIDI Shaper is a Max for Live MIDI device that uses multi-breakpoint envelopes to generate mappable modulation data.

The Cytomic Filters, which are used in the Wavetable, Echo, Simpler, Sampler, Operator, and Auto Filter devices, have been updated and improved in stability, sound and performance. As of 11.1, the Cytomic filters (particularly the MS2 and SMP options) might deviate in sound compared to previous Live versions, especially when driven hard.

An update to the Softtube libraries may cause subtle sound changes in the Amp and Cabinet audio effects.

In the Sampler, Wavetable, Impulse, Simpler, Channel EQ, Hybrid Reverb, Chorus-Ensemble, Phaser-Flanger, Echo (output knob only), and Spectral Resonator (input send only) devices, Gain controls now increment/decrement consistently by 1 dB when pressing the up/down arrow key, or by 0.1 dB when pressing the Shift key.

Spectral Time:

The effect order can now be reversed using two radio buttons “Frz > Dly” or “Dly > Frz” on the right panel of the Spectral Time device above the Dry/Wet knob.

A “Zero Dry Signal Latency” option has been added to the context menu in the Spectral Time device. Enabling it reduces the latency of the dry signal to zero instead of syncing it with the output of the effect. This option is useful when playing a live instrument through Spectral Time and monitoring the output.

Spectral Resonator:

In the Spectral Resonator device, the Shift parameter will now increment/decrement by one semitone when pressing the up or down arrow keys, or by one octave when holding the Shift key.

Wavetable:

A context menu option for Hi-Quality mode has been added to the Wavetable device. When Hi-Quality is off, Wavetable modulation is calculated every 32 samples. Low-power versions of the Cytomic filters are also used to further reduce CPU. Using Wavetable with Hi-Quality mode off can save up to 25% CPU compared to having it enabled, which is ideal for working with large sets or maintaining low latencies. Please note that as of 11.1, Hi-Quality mode will be off by default when loading a new instance of Wavetable or any of its Core Library presets. However, any user presets or Live Sets created previously will still load Wavetable in Hi-Quality mode to ensure sound consistency with earlier Live versions. Subtle sound differences may occur when Hi-Quality mode is enabled.

Push Device Visualization
On Push 2, the Hybrid Reverb parameter banks Algorithm 1 and Algorithm 2 have been renamed to Algorithm Pg 1 and Algorithm Pg 2. Also some parameters for Hybrid Reverb on Push 2 have been rearranged for easier navigation.

Updated some parameter names for the Chorus-Ensemble device on Push 2.

The Saw Up and Saw Down icons for Sampler’s LFO waveforms on Push 2 now appear as expected.

Session View Improvements
Using the Arrow Left/Right keys to navigate the Session View no longer skips return tracks, if they are visible.

Multi-selecting scenes now behaves the same as multi-selecting clip slots.

Selecting scenes no longer highlights the Master track, instead the scene itself is highlighted.

Navigating from the last clip slot to a scene with the Arrow Right key will highlight the Master track.

You can click on a scene number or the Master track header to access the Master track and Scene View panel.

Setup
To avoid incompatibilities, you will be asked to save Live Sets created with an older version of Live as a new file in Live 11.1.

In Live’s Preferences, file paths that are unavailable (e.g. if an external drive is not connected) display a “(not available)” message. Paths that haven’t been set yet display a “(not set)” message.

Bugfixes
Live Bugfixes
Devices that use beat sync divisions now remain in sync when the device is re-enabled during playback.

The Filter LFO dropdown menu in the Tension device now appears as expected.

Previously, when merging a device chain containing no instrument with another device chain containing an instrument, the instrument would be deleted from the merged chain.

Live no longer moves samples from a temporary project to the final saved project folder.

Fixed a bug that created file path issues with the Live Recordings temporary folder if it was also saved and renamed in Places.

The undo text for changed clip colors has been corrected in the Edit menu.

Previously, if a plugin was grouped into an Instrument or Drum Rack, the MPE settings of the plugin were not retained when the Rack was saved as a preset.

Fixed a crash that occurred if non-supported MPE data (e.g. MIDI CCs other than Pitch, Slide, or Pressure) was sent to a Sampler/Simpler device.

Fixed a crash that occurred when clicking on a parameter in Live and adjusting the same parameter using an encoder on Push at the same time.

Fixed a crash that occurred if all return/delay tracks were deleted and then a track containing a take lane was duplicated and moved. Live would crash if undo was selected twice after duplicating and moving the track.

In the Filter/Mod section of the Delay device, a custom icon for the Ping Pong setting is now displayed on Push 2.

Fixed a crash that occurred when going to “Save Set as Template” from the File menu, then typing the name of the set, and finally pressing the [Escape] key twice to cancel the process.

Improved keyboard shortcut support for French keyboard layouts

Fixed a bug that caused peak CPU load to be calculated incorrectly if the buffer size selected in Live’s Preferences wasn’t a multiple of 64 samples.

Fixed a crash caused by loading multiple instances of certain VST3 plug-ins when Live’s transport was running.

Fixed an issue in Session View that caused notes to sometimes be triggered twice when recording a MIDI clip with both “Record Quantization” and “Chase MIDI Notes” enabled.

Fixed an issue caused when using multiple Control Surface scripts that are set to automatically arm MIDI tracks.

When highlighting an area of a take lane using Draw Mode, the clip name appears as expected.

Plug-ins that cannot be loaded appear with a standard device background that includes a more detailed error message.

Loading .alc files from Core Drum Kits into Arrangement View now preserves the Drum Rack chain routings.

In Arrangement View, the dialog box that appears when multi-clip editing is no longer available because more than eight tracks are selected appears as expected.

When several audio clips with different pitch values are selected, you will see the range of values for each clip highlighted in blue on the Pitch dial in Clip View.

Renaming take lanes in linked tracks works as expected.

Folded clips with long fades appear as expected.

Fixed an issue that caused clip fades to reset when resizing adjacent clips.

Fixed a crash caused by some VST3 plug-ins with certain undesignated MIDI CC mapping parameters.

The CTRL + 5 fixed/zoom adaptive grid keyboard shortcut works as expected on Windows.

Fixed an issue in Session View that caused notes to sometimes be triggered twice when recording a MIDI clip with both “Record Quantization” and “Chase MIDI Notes” enabled.

Fixed two bugs that caused the time selection to not be updated as expected when editing several clips compared to editing a single clip.

Max for Live Bugfixes
When the LFO device's modulation waveform exceeds its minimum/maximum, it now draws a horizontal line, as is consistent with the Envelope Follower and Shaper devices. The MPE Control device no longer creates high CPU spikes when receiving MIDI CC 64 (Sustain).

Fixed various bugs that affected these bundled Max for Live devices: Envelope MIDI, LFO, Note Echo, and MIDI Monitor.

Fixed a bug with the Expression Control device.

Key events keep working when a selected Max for Live device becomes invisible.

Selected parameters of a Max for Live device can still be controlled by key events even if the device is no longer visible.

The correct return IDs of newly created notes will be added to new clips when using the Python API or Max for Live API.

Mapped waveforms in the LFO device appear as expected.

Setting the MPE Control device Pitch Curve to an S Curve shape works as expected.

Fixed an issue that could cause CPU spikes when using Channel Aftertouch in the MPE Control device.

amxd~: notifies parameter hub when device state changes

jit.gl.model: fixed file loading when embedded in M4L device

jsliveapi: eliminate crash when there's no 'this' for operations

jsliveapi: improved handling of large strings

live.* UI objects: improve negative value handling with some units

live.* ui objects: Outputs the correct value when opened and initialized by pattr

live.banks: error reporting refinements

live.banks: fixed bank renaming in response to '-' argument

live.banks: fixed crash when adding a new bank with index 1 when banks are empty

live.banks: fixed crash with certain 'edit' messages

live.banks: fixed crashing with bad input

live.dial: fixed large mode automation drawing

live.drop: ensure value when restoring

live.scope~: fixed delayed drawing after deletion

Help patchers: fixed crash clicking '?' menu in Live
Device project: fixed hang when changing the "development path type"
Editor Startup: improved Windows startup times
Live Object Model doc: updated with Live 11 additions
Parameters: filters hidden parameters before generating automation for Live
pcontrol: scheduler works in patches opened via load message
Timing: improved locked metro accuracy
Max Console in Max for Live: long text wrapped and shows device name

Object Browser: Max for Live UI objects shown in correct category

Object Palette: icons added for all live.* UI objects

Parameters Window / Inspector: auto-quote Info Title / Info

Parameters: only dirty if it exists in a Max for Live device

Performance: CPU usage improvements after starting Editor

User avatar
sonicbyte
Posts: 328
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Argentina

Post 29 Sep 2021

that's a lot for a "point" update

User avatar
gullum
Posts: 1159
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Faroe Islands

Post 29 Sep 2021

but for people only on Reason R12 has more to offer then Live for us

User avatar
Creativemind
Posts: 4486
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

Post 29 Sep 2021

sonicbyte wrote:
29 Sep 2021
that's a lot for a "point" update
Just a smidgeon. Lol!
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.42 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

User avatar
gullum
Posts: 1159
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: Faroe Islands

Post 29 Sep 2021

oh and iOS 15 has 300 new updates the weather icon has moved the sun and camera icon has lost it's shutter button

User avatar
Creativemind
Posts: 4486
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

Post 29 Sep 2021

jaeproduced wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Ok so I'm not a Ableton user Reason 12 Only but my god I ran across the update release notes for Ableton 11.1 and it's ridiculous compared to Reason 12...I know some will say this is apples vs oranges but come on maybe I should rethink my allegiance.
What a hefty list. Reaper has about 20 to 30 feature's in a point update which is pretty big too. One came out for Reaper on December 13th last year like I say, with about 20-30 features in it and since then we've had about another 5 or 6, probably 7 as they average about every 20-30 days. Abelton and Reaper can do updates like that in a point update and in the main edition of Reason 11 we had like 7 features and 2 devices and 3 midi editing ones were basic features that should've been added 4 versions ago and the curved automation and crossfades were very basic as well and for £129. I was at the time and still am, quite appalled by it and think it was a very weak update and far too dear, 12 is equally as weak so far. I get they're a small company and software development isn't as easy as just thinking up a feature and adding it but I would just like to say that Reaper is coded by 2 individuals on their own. I think Friktion and Algoritm should've been included free as updates (as well as Re's) in one of the 11 point updates to make up for it.

Is it a free update for Ableton users on 11 then and how much are upgrades?
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.42 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

User avatar
avasopht
Posts: 2866
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 29 Sep 2021

Creativemind wrote:
29 Sep 2021
jaeproduced wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Ok so I'm not a Ableton user Reason 12 Only but my god I ran across the update release notes for Ableton 11.1 and it's ridiculous compared to Reason 12...I know some will say this is apples vs oranges but come on maybe I should rethink my allegiance.
What a hefty list. Reaper has about 20 to 30 feature's in a point update which is pretty big too. One came out for Reaper on December 13th last year like I say, with about 20-30 features in it and since then we've had about another 5 or 6, probably 7 as they average about every 20-30 days. Abelton and Reaper can do updates like that in a point update and in the main edition of Reason 11 we had like 7 features and 2 devices and 3 midi editing ones were basic features that should've been added 4 versions ago and the curved automation and crossfades were very basic as well and for £129. I was at the time and still am, quite appalled by it and think it was a very weak update and far too dear, 12 is equally as weak so far. I get they're a small company and software development isn't as easy as just thinking up a feature and adding it but I would just like to say that Reaper is coded by 2 individuals on their own. I think Friktion and Algoritm should've been included free as updates (as well as Re's) in one of the 11 point updates to make up for it.

Is it a free update for Ableton users on 11 then and how much are upgrades?
The number of features is a useless metric. It means absolutely nothing.

I could code 1,000 features every month if I wanted to (if they're really small features).

As far as I know, Reaper has no audio pitch editor, nothing like Complex, Neptune, NNXT, or like ... basically most of the rack. So the feature count means nothing if those features aren't big enough or don't hit the spot.

I wouldn't be surprised if gimp had more features than photoshop.

And I really don't get this obsession with point updates.

Anyone can deliver a major feature in a point update. Either a major feature is delivered:
1. At release
2. In a point update

That's all there is to it.

It's part engineering and part business. Some features will have to target the new version and some won't (engineering). Features that could be added to a previous version might instead target the next release (business).

Some features take weeks, some take months, and some take years.

You can either get 6 features at launch and no point updates or 4 features at launch and 2 features in point updates. Either way their rate of development remains the same, it just means they weren't released at the same time.

Also, Reaper releases major versions much less often, so more production happens during a major release cycle.

--


As for R12. Like it or not, some of the features that don't look like they do much may take way more time. You can't complain about that. These things are sometimes necessary. The same thing will happen to you where people don't appreciate that what you are doing is more costly than they think it should be.

If they didn't spend time doing what they did, everyone would be complaining that they didn't do it.

Ableton had to spend a good year or so just fixing bugs sometime around Live 7-9. There weren't many feature updates in the next version IIRC because they had to fix the bugs.

Reason has been around for 20 years. We're not just talking about a product with legacy code, but a product that was developed when C++ was a very different language to what it is today.
---

STIM
Posts: 26
Joined: 28 Aug 2019

Post 29 Sep 2021

Ableton Live still looks like an uninspiring spreadsheet though.

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 4033
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 29 Sep 2021

I wouldn’t say number of features is a “useless” metric—potentially misleading, for sure, but not useless.

one thing this list shows is that Ableton are focused on ensuring a good user experience across a broad range of users. it doesn’t necessarily mean there are more new shiny tools and toys, but does communicate that they’re working very hard toward something. I think RS would leave a lot of the stuff in this list off the list (though it would still be there), because much of it lacks the kind of ‘coolness’ factor they love so dearly. maybe that’s a good thing in their eyes, but in mine, it’s a miss. especially if they want us to recognize all the work they’re putting into Reason. even seeing how much goes into a release that’s not necessarily exciting to me puts things into better perspective, so it’s harder to get frustrated with a lack of progress.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

jaeproduced
Posts: 127
Joined: 29 Apr 2020

Post 29 Sep 2021

STIM wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Ableton Live still looks like an uninspiring spreadsheet though.
That's why I'm Reason 12 Only...Ableton Live looks like an unfinished beta version in my opinion.

User avatar
plasticfractal
Posts: 116
Joined: 29 Oct 2016

Post 29 Sep 2021

Yes our updates come at a slow trickle. And sequencer/workflow improvements basically NEVER happen, ever. Ever. But I still love Reason, what can I say.

Mataya
Posts: 266
Joined: 03 May 2019

Post 29 Sep 2021

Pretty buggy software that Ableton if you ask me.

M

User avatar
artotaku
Posts: 616
Joined: 09 May 2015
Location: Munich, Germany

Post 29 Sep 2021

Mataya wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Pretty buggy software that Ableton if you ask me.

M
I´m normally quite hesitant to claim that more developers automatically means more features (true is: it typically means more bugs ;-)) since small dev teams can be very productive but Ableton has far more devs than Reasonstudios. So one thing is quantity.

Then, skillset of devs is thing. We have no insight in both companies so we don´t know.

Another thing is legacy code and the overall quality of the existing code which can slow down new code dramatically.
I think we can say both Ableton and Reason have a lot of legacy code since they exist for quite a long time. Legacy code does not mean it is bad quality per se. But it may mean old technologies, paradigms and frameworks which are a hindrance.
We only know rumors of what parts they have rewritten from scratch or refactored. I remember when Ableton had really big issues with their product quality in some release. But they managed to get out of this hole.

It will interesting to see if Reasonstudios will employ more devs in future if they can find any. Good devs are rare and expensive. Esp in Sweden. So Verdane, you have the capital.

flexluthor
Posts: 52
Joined: 23 Dec 2016

Post 29 Sep 2021

Ableton does more in a point update than Reason Studios do in a 199 paid update.

Just amazing how lazy they are.

User avatar
fullforce
Posts: 567
Joined: 18 Aug 2018

Post 29 Sep 2021

Mataya wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Pretty buggy software that Ableton if you ask me.

M
Eh, no.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.

Heater
Posts: 554
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 29 Sep 2021

flexluthor wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Ableton does more in a point update than Reason Studios do in a 199 paid update.

Just amazing how lazy they are.
Yep. And slow.

User avatar
DaveyG
Posts: 1328
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 29 Sep 2021

Heater wrote:
29 Sep 2021
flexluthor wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Ableton does more in a point update than Reason Studios do in a 199 paid update.

Just amazing how lazy they are.
Yep. And slow.
Slow, yes, but I don't think they are lazy - just badly directed by the higher management.

And speaking of Lazy, why settle for an 8 bar intro when you can stretch it out to 3 or 4 minutes:



Indulgent, yes, but oh, those keys.

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 4033
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 29 Sep 2021

Mataya wrote:
29 Sep 2021
Pretty buggy software that Ableton if you ask me.

M
compared to Reason 10 or 11, yeah, slightly less stable (but so was every other DAW). compared to 12, not even close—Reason is way buggier, so far. hopefully after both updates, they’re both much more stable.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

User avatar
Eurikon
Posts: 50
Joined: 07 May 2016
Location: Earth

Post 29 Sep 2021

Just installed the Ableton M1 native version, radical improvement for me!
Kudo's to the Ableton crew, will be waiting for Reason crew to catch up in RSN13..
★ --------------------------------------- ★
https://www.youtube.com/c/Eurikon
https://eurikon.bandcamp.com
https://instagram.com/eurikon_music
★ --------------------------------------- ★

User avatar
mimidancer
Posts: 42
Joined: 30 Sep 2021

Post 03 Oct 2021

When I read posts like this I think if these guys love Ableton live so much why are they posting here. I am a user of Live, Reason, Protools, and Logic. For me, Logic is a bit meh. Protools is great for sharing stems. Live is fun for remixing on the fly. But when I want to write music I open Reason every time. WHY? because reason has character. It is a collection of instruments and effects that like physical things in the real world have limitations. Pushing a device past what it was intended to be is what makes Reason an incredibly creative experience. Reason was built ideas of the 808 and 303. Iconic now, but this was the junk that nobody wanted. This was the junk that didn't sound like a "bass" or "real" drums. But guess what? It had character. It had soul. Reason has both. When I open Live, I am uninspired. I am guessing many other Abelton users feel the same way. That is why they load the reason rack. Reason inspires creativity.

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 4033
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 03 Oct 2021

mimidancer wrote:
03 Oct 2021
When I read posts like this I think if these guys love Ableton live so much why are they posting here.
because it's not a binary choice. it's possible to love more than one thing simultaneously and want it to succeed.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this. we're talking about how Reason isn't keeping pace with other software because we want Reason to be better. yes, Reason is inspiring. that's why we use it. that's why we post here. Ableton (or insert your other DAW of choice) is just as inspiring for others, in a different way. that's why we use it.

we use both. we want both to be better. simple stuff.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

User avatar
mimidancer
Posts: 42
Joined: 30 Sep 2021

Post 03 Oct 2021

I just said I use 4 DAWs. It is the "why isn't Reason Live crowd" I don't get. When I want to use Live I click on it. I don't need reason to be Live anymore than I expect Live to be Reason. They are for doing different things. I use them all. but when I want to write. I use reason. Its quirk gives it character.

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 4033
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 03 Oct 2021

mimidancer wrote:
03 Oct 2021
I just said I use 4 DAWs. It is the "why isn't Reason Live crowd" I don't get. When I want to use Live I click on it. I don't need reason to be Live anymore than I expect Live to be Reason. They are for doing different things. I use them all. but when I want to write. I use reason. Its quirk gives it character.
this isn't at all what people want. nobody wants Reason to be Live. if they did they really wouldn't bother with Reason or this forum and would just use Live (to your point). how would that benefit anyone? if I wanted Reason to be Live, then it would be a coin toss which one I'd want to open, and it wouldn't make any difference which one a new user decided to start with.

what some of us want is for Reason to have some very basic quality of life features. the original post here is just an example of why there is concern that many of these incredibly simple features may take a very long time to be implemented in Reason, if they ever are.

like you say, Reason is inspiring because it's incredibly flexible and easy to get ideas going. adding missing features won't make Reason like other DAWs, and it won't make Reason less inspiring--on the contrary, it would make it more inspiring, and make it a DAW that's a viable full-featured option to other more utilitarian DAWs. if Reason added a number of the basic missing features I use often in Live, for example, it wouldn't make me go "hmm, this is just like Ableton Live", it would make me less likely to need to open Ableton. it would enhance the workflow I already love in Reason (which is very different than the workflow I love in Live).
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

User avatar
mimidancer
Posts: 42
Joined: 30 Sep 2021

Post 03 Oct 2021

I am so sorry. I feel like I have angered you. That was not my intention. I truly don't understand the whole workflow thing. I find live clunky. It is utterly boring visually. The one thing it is good at is stringing together clips live, like a DJ. Reason's workflow is like going into the studio it is emulating. I guess I don't see the value in folding my tracks together. and using an arrow key to change lanes modulation lanes. As I just turn the knobs on my controller when I press record. Nothing difficult about that. I obviously love reason. And I am just okay with Live. It is good at that one thing. But I am not considering people that can't actually play. Not a knock. Many great producers are terrible musicians. Just saying that if I flub a key I don't press quantize or look in the piano roll. I just play it again. Again not a knock. Many great producers cannot play. But this may be my disconnect. Again I am not trying to anger you. I like the reason sequencer as is. I don't want the clunk I find in live. When I do want live I load it.

User avatar
avasopht
Posts: 2866
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 03 Oct 2021

mimidancer wrote:
03 Oct 2021
I am so sorry. I feel like I have angered you. That was not my intention. I truly don't understand the whole workflow thing. I find live clunky. It is utterly boring visually. The one thing it is good at is stringing together clips live, like a DJ. Reason's workflow is like going into the studio it is emulating. I guess I don't see the value in folding my tracks together. and using an arrow key to change lanes modulation lanes. As I just turn the knobs on my controller when I press record. Nothing difficult about that. I obviously love reason. And I am just okay with Live. It is good at that one thing. But I am not considering people that can't actually play. Not a knock. Many great producers are terrible musicians. Just saying that if I flub a key I don't press quantize or look in the piano roll. I just play it again. Again not a knock. Many great producers cannot play. But this may be my disconnect. Again I am not trying to anger you. I like the reason sequencer as is. I don't want the clunk I find in live. When I do want live I load it.
Get Ableton push (alternatively launchpad or atom if you don't want to fork out too much) and you'll find its workflow can be pretty slick.

I'm with you on the sequencer, mainly because I'm quite used to working like this.

But some people need the advanced midi editing you'd find in FLStudio.

Like you I use various DAWs depending on my mood (though R12 is on hold until the stability is sorted out)?

One thing often forgotten in these discussions is that RS make much more devices, and introduce features that only visible indirectly through Rack Extensions and Players - but they are DAW features.

If you factor in all of the rack extensions, players and re SDK, you'll find RS have been very busy.
---

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest