What's happened to us (/them)? ... (10 years after discovering RE trademark and patent)

[avasopht]

10 years ago we discovered Propellerhead had registered a new trademark - "Rack Extensions".

There was a hell of a lot of speculation, theorizing, and tech-fu going on. One user inspected the beta executable and knew ahead of time what was to come.

There was so much excitement.

When it was finally announced with the promotional video showing us what they had in store for us, it's hard to explain to those who weren't there just how much it felt like Reason was entering a new age.

It changed everything.

Rack Extensions are so seamless that it's easy to forget there was ever a time when this was not possible and the rack was fixed.

And here we are 10 years later.

Instead of excitement, we have disappointment.

Instead of a "Pay what you want" promo we have this situation where they've heavily promoted the upgrade, and the R+ subscription where they were told they'll get R12 in September, but then only after people had spent their money were they told that "it will be completed around January and this is just an early release."

While R12 is looking to be a good release (eventually), instead of the excitement of 10 years ago we have we have fear, outrage and despair.

Something has changed and I have to ask, ...

... What has happened to us (/them)?

[kbard]

It's very simple and doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory or evil greedy company agenda.

Life happened. Business happened. Not all our ideas and plans plays out exactly as we want them. Same is happening in business. You can not predict everything.

That's all to it probably.

[artotaku]

On the +-Side, migration to HD worked astonishly well for all REs. Sure, some RE devs had to fix smaller things and there were some things that had to be fixed by RS themselves but overall the foresight worked out.

[moofi]

It´s very nice being able to lean back on the sofa and tweak a song while listening, something not really a joy if even possible before

On the +-Side, migration to HD worked astonishly well for all REs. Sure, some RE devs had to fix smaller things and there were some things that had to be fixed by RS themselves but overall the foresight worked out.

[avasopht]

It's very simple and doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory or evil greedy company agenda.

Life happened. Business happened. Not all our ideas and plans plays out exactly as we want them. Same is happening in business. You can not predict everything.

That's all to it probably.

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy either.

But I do make the point that when they started running the R12 promos, they knew full well that it would not be ready until January. I've been developing software for 20 years. There is a 0% chance they genuinely thought they'd have their 3-month roadmap completed by September. And by the 25th of August, they'd have known full well that this would be released in the state that it was.

But they made out as if it was going to be a regular release as usual - implying it would be at the very least, stable and sufficiently tested. Everything they've said since has been fine, but that transparency only came after people parted ways with their dollars.

It's not a conspiracy theory. They knew full well what state the product was in when they were running their promotions. They knew some users were going to be very disappointed with the state of the product at launch. It was their explicit decision to omit any of this vital information until after it was released.

R12 seems to work fine on my machine so I've not got any major complaints, although I've not been doing too much music-making this last month, and the little I have done has all been in Maschine.

I just find it interesting that it just happens to be about 10 years ago that the forum was excited at this new thing that was coming to Reason.

It was a very different vibe.

[Carpainter]

I hate to always be 'that guy', but I instinctively knew from the beginning that they were going to use the Rack Extension system to sell devices that otherwise would have been part of an upgrade.

If they had instead added VST support back then, maybe we'd have a fully featured implementation of it by now.

[electrofux]

What changed imho is their stance on businnes be it driven through Verdane or not. And i am not saying this is a bad thing. The problem is how they go about executing the new business models. For example the Reason Suite offering was great and could have been marketed alongside the more bitter pills the longterm users had to swallow in the last few years. R+ is pretty much a bad at least not wanted thing for many longterm users and now this really extreme price increase for the same group of users while the update is buggy for many and a sequencer overhaul is not on the horizon.
The suite thing might have been their way of thinking this should remedy some of the "bad" upcoming stuff. But their marketing/communication in this complex has been pretty bad imho (there are signs though it might get better). By the time R+ and the price increase was announced they already had played their cards and even had to stop suite.

And stuff doesnt fit together anyways. Having suite for cheap before going subscription also is counterproductive as the major selling point of getting everything RS has done with the subscription is minimized. So they couldnt have expected alot of users switching to R+ anyways. And now the price increase looks like a penalty for not going +.

It is a mess. It all looks knitted with a hot needle as we say in germany lol.

I as a longterm and comitted Reason user want my DAW company be stable. I have spent so much money over the years to a sealed system (cant sell my REs) that of course turbulences make me wonder if that is a good investment or if it wouldnt be better to diversify. And with R+ i am asked to commit even further. When at the same time i am having a hard time making these past business decisions work in my head.

In an ideal world i would have taken this year to flood the RE market with RS devices (everything they have on their backlog). So that when they introduce R+ on the 1.1.2022 (when they also fixed the Re Market/subscription issue) the difference between suite is alot bigger. At the same time they offer a very good update with Hires, Combi2, VST3 AND a sequencer overhaul for 199,- and stay at that price for the future. Not only would the update offer more value for the price but they could also say we have now ticked off all the BIG user requests and caught up with the competition. How would that have looked and be perceived or would that have been financially not doable because they might need cash quick?

[selig]

I hate to always be 'that guy', but I instinctively knew from the beginning that they were going to use the Rack Extension system to sell devices that otherwise would have been part of an upgrade.

If they had instead added VST support back then, maybe we'd have a fully featured implementation of it by now.

Isn’t that the opposite of what other folks are complaining about now, that a new RE (Mimic) is NOT being sold separately and Is only available as a part of an upgrade?
Seems like for every person who thinks a decision is “right” there is another that things the opposite should have been done. 🤪

[Loque]

...
Seems like for every person who thinks a decision is “right” there is another that things the opposite should have been done. 🤪

THIS! ! ! SO! MUCH! THIS!!!

[Carpainter]

I hate to always be 'that guy', but I instinctively knew from the beginning that they were going to use the Rack Extension system to sell devices that otherwise would have been part of an upgrade.

If they had instead added VST support back then, maybe we'd have a fully featured implementation of it by now.

Isn’t that the opposite of what other folks are complaining about now, that a new RE (Mimic) is NOT being sold separately and Is only available as a part of an upgrade?
Seems like for every person who thinks a decision is “right” there is another that things the opposite should have been done. 🤪

Allowing someone to save a few dollars by buying a 'piece' of an upgrade if they aren't interested in the whole thing would actually be a good use of the Rack Extension ecosystem.

Withholding devices from an upgrade and selling them in the Shop is something else entirely.

[selig]

Isn’t that the opposite of what other folks are complaining about now, that a new RE (Mimic) is NOT being sold separately and Is only available as a part of an upgrade?
Seems like for every person who thinks a decision is “right” there is another that things the opposite should have been done. 🤪

Allowing someone to save a few dollars by buying a 'piece' of an upgrade if they aren't interested in the whole thing would actually be a good use of the Rack Extension ecosystem.

Withholding devices from an upgrade and selling them in the Shop is something else entirely.

Yes, just the opposite, as I said - but I fear I'm still not following you here, apologies for that as I probably just need more coffee this morning...
Again for each person that want's to keep the sequencer simple, there are those who feel it's far behind and need updates. For each that felt adding audio was going in a different/wrong direction, there are those that didn't connect with Reason until it added audio. And so on. And that's how the world works, not saying otherwise.
Just wanting to put things into perspective by acknowledging that satisfying a large group of customers (such as Reason users) is no easy task…

[avasopht]

Seems like for every person who thinks a decision is “right” there is another that things the opposite should have been done. 🤪

The unavoidable catch-22.

But it makes little sense to have no premium tier that includes all of them.

[Pepin]

I think REs were much more divisive when they were announced than you’re remembering. I remember all of these concerns:
- REs will kill collaboration
- REs will kill ReFills
- REs mean no more stock devices will be added
- REs exist to extract money from users between upgrades
- RE format will be dead on arrival because of SDK limitations. They should have added VST support instead.

I agree Reason 12 could have been handled better, but we tend to remember the past in an overly positive light. And that might be souring your perspective.

[Faastwalker]

...
Seems like for every person who thinks a decision is “right” there is another that things the opposite should have been done. 🤪

THIS! ! ! SO! MUCH! THIS!!!

Exactly. Impossible to please everyone. And every change made is scrutinised throughly ……..

I think REs were much more divisive when they were announced than you’re remembering. I remember all of these concerns:
- REs will kill collaboration
- REs will kill ReFills
- REs mean no more stock devices will be added
- REs exist to extract money from users between upgrades
- RE format will be dead on arrival because of SDK limitations. They should have added VST support instead.

I agree Reason 12 could have been handled better, but we tend to remember the past in an overly positive light. And that might be souring your perspective.

……… I remember this. The advent of Rack Extensions was definitely not universally greeted with applause that’s for sure.

[michael.jaye]

It's interesting how the more advanced and complete Reason becomes, the more people are dissatisfied with it and threaten to leave the DAW for something else.

[avasopht]

It's interesting how the more advanced and complete Reason becomes, the more people are dissatisfied with it and threaten to leave the DAW for something else.

Dismissing it all as just some sort of insatiable dissent that has nothing to do with any clear failings is just not correct at all.

Firstly, some of the reasons people are dissatisfied are entirely down to features that have been omitted that are standard and necessary features found in ALL other DAWs and require minimal resources to implement (sometimes a mere decision to do so).

But most importantly, this release has been handled poorly and is the first known version of Reason to be released in a pre-release state.

Reason has never been released in such a severely buggy state before. We're not talking about a few wonky labels either.

So making out it's just because people will always complain is a false narrative, and does come across as a little intellectually dishonest given it's been very clearly explained.

The transport looks like it was rendered in draft mode, things are rendering poorly on some machines, and some are suffering from serious high CPU issues. So please let's not poison this debate with the false narrative that people are just complaining for the sake of complaining, or that it's just a difference in preferences. This is a severely botched release (and the first of its kind in the history of Reason).

[michael.jaye]

Firstly, some of the reasons people are dissatisfied are entirely down to features that have been omitted that are standard and necessary features found in ALL other DAWs and require minimal resources to implement (sometimes a mere decision to do so).

In the infancy of Reason there wasn't any expectation of fully fledged DAW additions. Anything updated felt like a bonus. Only after it crossed a threshold of features did people 'expect' more, and more of certain DAW features.

But most importantly, this release has been handled poorly and is the first known version of Reason to be released in a pre-release state.

Again, people have been 'dissatisfied and threatened leaving for another DAW' before R12. It has been a gradual thing. Granted, such a buggy release is a new type of dissapointment (justifyably so).

My larger point is that Reason is, albeit very slowly (hey - what else is new?!), inching towards the complete product everyone wants. But the closer it gets, the more insistant people complain.

Maybe I don't feel the same way as a lot of people. When they added VST support it was an unbelievable dream come true and I've been in no rush to upgrade or demand new features since then, anything more is icing on the cake.

[michael.jaye]

The transport looks like it was rendered in draft mode, things are rendering poorly on some machines, and some are suffering from serious high CPU issues. So please let's not poison this debate with the false narrative that people are just complaining for the sake of complaining, or that it's just a difference in preferences. This is a severely botched release (and the first of its kind in the history of Reason).

All true.

[Faastwalker]

It's interesting how the more advanced and complete Reason becomes, the more people are dissatisfied with it and threaten to leave the DAW for something else.

I definitely think it’s the case that the more Reason has expanded and ‘opened up’ the more closely scrutinised it has become. That’s par for the course. But it’s also true that Reason 12 has been one of the shoddiest updates ever for Reason. It does feel very rushed to meet the release date. As a Reason+ user I felt somewhat letdown by the early access to features that were clearly not ready. But to get to full release and see that there is STILL so much left unfinished is unfortunate to say the least.

I’m confident issues will be ironed out, hopefully quickly. But going forward might it not be better for Reason Studios to be more ambiguous with their release dates? If there is going to be a Reason 13, which at this point I have my doubts, it would probably be preferable to announce release as for example ‘Coming 4th quarter, 2021’. So release schedules are not penned in to specific dates and will give everyone a little more breathing space so we can avoid another Reason 12 - developers clearly struggling to make the release, users disappointed with the release.

[StephenHutchinson]

I hate to always be 'that guy', but I instinctively knew from the beginning that they were going to use the Rack Extension system to sell devices that otherwise would have been part of an upgrade.

If they had instead added VST support back then, maybe we'd have a fully featured implementation of it by now.

I could be wrong here, but aren't most Rack Extensions made by independent developers? You know... the ones who create instruments and effects, and who I presume profit directly from their work when we buy them? I'm not sure how or why a developer would create a Rack Extension to be specifically purposed for "part of an upgrade."

... and on another note... I'm NOT sure why I capitalized "Rack Extensions").

[Proboscis]

The transport looks like it was rendered in draft mode, things are rendering poorly on some machines, and some are suffering from serious high CPU issues.

I've been enjoying the new version, and the gesture behind it

30 minutes ago, I noticed that the STOP button on the Transport controls is missing.

That's quite a significant icon, and it just...vanished.




.

image_2021-09-22_151257.png (8.86 KiB) Viewed 4846 times

[avasopht]

That's quite a significant icon, and it just...vanished.




.
image_2021-09-22_151257.png

It stopped displaying

[avasopht]

I’m confident issues will be ironed out, hopefully quickly. But going forward might it not be better for Reason Studios to be more ambiguous with their release dates? If there is going to be a Reason 13, which at this point I have my doubts, it would probably be preferable to announce release as for example ‘Coming 4th quarter, 2021’. So release schedules are not penned in to specific dates and will give everyone a little more breathing space so we can avoid another Reason 12 - developers clearly struggling to make the release, users disappointed with the release.

Yes. But that's what bothers me.

All they needed to do was set expectations.

Nobody would have complained that it'll be ready in January for $499/$199 but that you could get early access for $399/$129 from September 1st.




That was all they needed to do. They wouldn't have even needed to share the roadmap. We'd have been excited and content getting access to it 3 months early

[jlgrimes]

I think REs were much more divisive when they were announced than you’re remembering. I remember all of these concerns:
- REs will kill collaboration
- REs will kill ReFills
- REs mean no more stock devices will be added
- REs exist to extract money from users between upgrades
- RE format will be dead on arrival because of SDK limitations. They should have added VST support instead.

I agree Reason 12 could have been handled better, but we tend to remember the past in an overly positive light. And that might be souring your perspective.

[Carpainter]

I could be wrong here, but aren't most Rack Extensions made by independent developers? You know... the ones who create instruments and effects, and who I presume profit directly from their work when we buy them? I'm not sure how or why a developer would create a Rack Extension to be specifically purposed for "part of an upgrade."

... and on another note... I'm NOT sure why I capitalized "Rack Extensions").

I would have been all for the RE ecosystem if it was purely a platform for third-party developers. My only beef with it is how RS uses it to sell devices that would otherwise be included in an upgrade. I've always viewed it as a stealth increase to the price of Reason.