Will you upgrade @199 for future releases

[Lov2sing]

I bought Reason 11 Suite, which I paid more than $199.00 and got a lot of stuff which it was worth it but now they want me paying more for less; therefore Reason 12 is my last upgrade.I can see in the foreseeable future.

[platzangst]

I upgraded from 10 to 11 for $90 during their May promotion. I had originally planned to skip 11 altogether, but they offered a deal where upgrading to 11 at that time got me a free upgrade to 12 when it dropped. I doubt I'll upgrade at each version at $199 a shot, but since there may well be significant deals along the way, I can't say I wouldn't upgrade if a decent sale came along.

[craven]

I miss the option to upgrade when there is a promotion

[plaamook]

I would be over the moon if future releases had a ton of content in them and would gladly pay the US $200 price tag. Unfortunately we can already see the R12 roadmap and it does not seem that promising.

I can't help but imagine where the hell Reason would be if it wasn't for all those god damn side ventures, alihoopaloop and all that endless failed nonsense, talk about thorns in our sides, some of us here have been begging for features for so many damn years yet all they would ever do is be like 'Hey, we're doing this stuff now,' after we waited years at a time to hear some word about the wanted features, then more years, then more years and so on. I doubt FL Studio and Live did stuff like that, I bet they just focused on the DAW and that was the end of the story - how friggen awesome.

It would have been better if Reason 13 was a much bigger upgrade with the bigger price tag, instead of hitting us with it now, with the 'promised' features in the roadmap which show us exactly how big they consider a US $200 upgrade is.

A good analogy is Pringles. I don't know what they look like in your country / city but here, the can has been increasingly getting thinner and thinner over the years while the price slowly increases along with everything else. A companies wet dream - sell less of the product for more money. It's like they think consumers are as stupid as a plank of wood. We can see clear as day that can is laughably really thin now, it happened very slowly over the years, but now it stands out clear as day. The supermarket sells their own version, cheaper and as big as the original size and they sell like hot cakes and just make it even more laughable. If any Aussies here remember / know Explorer men's socks, when you wore them new it was as if you bounced when you walked, such was the thickness and quality of the material, and they always cost much more than the rest but you knew you were getting quality for that money - now they are the same if not a slightly higher price - and they are as thin as a piece of sh*t!

It's true, we live in dark times like that it seems.
The list of products we depend on that go that way is endless and it just feeds into constantly shopping for the next decent product/tool/etc that you can depend on for as long as you can. Things do turn around from time to time but it's rare. To my mind it's not certain Reason has gone this route quite yet. And as it stands I'm still happier working in Reason than anything else I've used or can afford at the mo. I'll jump when I have to not before.
Perhaps this new corporate props will see how daft all these little allihoopla projects are and just stick to making a DAW that smashes it out of the ball park and makes them a lot of money. It's got a lot of potential .

[avasopht]

Subscriptions and permanent licenses are highly differentiated.

The CEO would have to be greatly out of touch to think raising the upgrade price makes subscriptions more attractive (which in not ruling out).

Truth is, $200/yr is affordable for most people of they VALUE it.

VCs without a good grasp of music makers won't understand how a market for hobbyists evaluate their purchases.

$20/mo is not a lot. Kids today have more expensive phone contracts, plus their Xbox or PlayStation subscription their parents are happy to pay for.

They're going for disposable income.

Whether you're subscribing or not makes no difference.

Subscribing also comes with greater risk.

People who aren't making music regularly will see the $20 coming out each month and have to evaluate the commitment, which is easy to leave. The risk of churn is higher because subscriptions require ongoing commitment to continue using.

It's more likely their just trying to increase the price and seeing how much they can sell it for.

It'll also provide lots of data to understand the market.

In a nutshell, getting everyone onto subscriptions may not be a good idea because it's easier to leave, they have a monthly reminder, and it requires a conscious ongoing commitment to subscribe for as long as you will make music.

It's no longer an impulse buy either.

Basically, the resistance you feel. The strong opposition you have to subscriptions is EXACTLY why they wouldn't want to discourage permanent licenses.

[avasopht]

Perhaps this new corporate props will see how daft all these little allihoopla projects are and just stick to making a DAW that smashes it out of the ball park and makes them a lot of money. It's got a lot of potential .

Nobody really knows what will make a lot of money.

For all we know, someone could come out with something like allihoopa and become a billion dollar company overnight.

This stuff happens all the time, and it happens precisely because we just don't know, so can only find those stars and cash cows through experimentation and trial and error.

Remember when so many investors and market experts are certain Tesla was just a fad or a bubble? And SpaceX?

Nobody knows.

It's a tiny and crowded market where you can't even give away Sonar.

[plaamook]

Perhaps this new corporate props will see how daft all these little allihoopla projects are and just stick to making a DAW that smashes it out of the ball park and makes them a lot of money. It's got a lot of potential .

Nobody really knows what will make a lot of money.

For all we know, someone could come out with something like allihoopa and become a billion dollar company overnight.

This stuff happens all the time, and it happens precisely because we just don't know, so can only find those stars and cash cows through experimentation and trial and error.

Remember when so many investors and market experts are certain Tesla was just a fad or a bubble? And SpaceX?

Nobody knows.

It's a tiny and crowded market where you can't even give away Sonar.

It's true.
What ends up making money in the world is often a complete mystery to me.
The tiny crowded maket is the part that makes me think...just get in with Logic Live or PT and be done with it. And I will once Reason really dies. Till then I'll just carry on speding money one way or the other.

[artmessiah]

Well it depends. For me it's not so much longer a matter of what new features they'll bring, it's become matter of trust. When RS made the choice to release/sell R12 in the unfinished state that it is, full of problems without being upfront about it, where people have to resort back to older versions, it made me lose a lot of trust in them. And the decision to raise the upgrade price before they'll have a chance to finish their product isn't helping either. Now I feel like I'm being pressured into buying it, which only makes me even less willing to upgrade.
I find the whole thing rather disrespectful. I'm having a hard time coming up with excuses for how the R12 release has been handled.
So yeah in my case, it's not about the features themselves, if I see RS continuing this behavior of selling unfinished beta versions without being clear about their products state, I'll most likely stop supporting them.
Finish your product first, then sell it. In that order.

This. I agree completely. I did upgrade (before the price goes up), but it almost felt like a pressure tactic. Good on them for the warning about the price, but still everything TritoneAddiction said is true. Release the BEST version, a FINISHED version, of an update FIRST and then do other things such as price increases and new ventures like Reason+. This whole thing the last couple of years has felt like money grab tactics - imo. People have been begging them to work on the sequencer (in a meaningful way), to add a tagging system to the browser in a similar vein to NI preset search system, and improve the NNXT sampler in particular, but pretty much all the other synths and drum machines in reason. I personally don't think Reason needs a new device every time, just improve or fix the current ones Reason already has.

[avasopht]

... Release the BEST version, a FINISHED version, of an update FIRST and then do other things such as price increases and new ventures like Reason+. This whole thing the last couple of years has felt like money grab tactics - imo ...

It wouldn't have even been a problem if they said this was an early release build before putting it up for sale and releasing their promos for it.

[Neo]

Ask me again after they release a patch fix for R12.

[artmessiah]

It wouldn't have even been a problem if they said this was an early release build before putting it up for sale and releasing their promos for it.

That would have been a better plan.

[PhillipOrdonez]

I suspect, the next trick in the "squeeze your customer", playbook will be upgrade price bands based on the base version.

12 to 13 £199
11 to 13 £245
10 to 13 £299
9 to 13 - full price
Pre 9 to 13 - your everlasting soul!

I really wish people on this forum stopped giving them the worst ideas to implement. No. Fuck this idea.

[moofi]

I don´t know what your pieces of sh*t look like, yet if my socks would be as thick as my pieces of sh*t it would be like walking on a bouncy castle ;-D

[... and they are as thin as a piece of sh*t!

[AttenuationHz]

Reason+ subscribers are not effected by the price increase to upgrade from a previous version of the perpetual license. Its inclusion would be irrelevant as the increase is to upgrade.

Exactly why it should be included - the relevance of the poll itself needs to be guaged.

You're welcome to start your own poll to gauge how many people will move to subscriptions because of the new pricing. However I suspect results will be similar to previous poll's from the past year regarding subscriptions.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522846
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521534
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522298 - RRP but would affect perpetual license
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521443
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521548

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

I already purchased the upgrade before they announced the price change, but if I hadn't yet I'd probably have a sour taste in my mouth and begrudgingly upgrade before the October deadline. I'll be judging my willingness to upgrade based on what kind of additions happen throughout the R12 point release cycle, but I doubt I'm going to go in blind to an R13 release like I did with this one. Shiny new devices aren't going to lure me into future upgrading though and I'm not likely to spend any additional money in the Reason store as I've already got so much more than I even use already.

[stratatonic]

Exactly why it should be included - the relevance of the poll itself needs to be guaged.

You're welcome to start your own poll to gauge how many people will move to subscriptions because of the new pricing. However I suspect results will be similar to previous poll's from the past year regarding subscriptions.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522846
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521534
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522298 - RRP but would affect perpetual license
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521443
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521548

Gauging the sub price against even the increased price of Reason still makes no sense, because there are still other devices in the RS arsenal.
They should have a Suite that has every single RS device in it and charge a huge ass amount for it. Then the 20 monthly could look like a good deal in comparison.

[moofi]

And there you got the biggest issue with subscriptions right away, you just luckily experience that situation before hand while having a perpetual license to work with and also open all your projects in you have been working on. Imagine being on subscription and not being able to maintain it financially. You are simply being locked out of your Reasonworld, a software you have been working with for a long time being a part of your life even if it´s just a hobby ("you" means potentially any longterm subscription user to come).

In fact at the mo I just can't really afford it full stop.

[tc13]

I did some thinking about buying Reason vs Reason+

Reason 499, upgrade 199
Subscription 19.95 per month or 199 per year upfront.

So full price Reason is 2.5 year of subscription, and most likely there will be an upgrade during that time span so thats another year for the subscription. You want Friction, Complex and Algorith and maybe Pattern Mutator as well? Thats another 2 years of subscription and then you still have access to all the other things from Reason Studios, that are already present or forthcoming.

So 5 years of subscription, 995. Reason full price + 1 upgrade and those 4 RE's 1099 (Of course this doesn't take into account any sales or price for the subscription getting higher)

So if I own Reason before? Well then its 199 for the upgrade the same as the subscription. The 4 REs are 401 thats another 2 years of subscription. And by the end of that time I guess there is another upgrade and som other "must have" REs that have been released.

Dont need Reason the year around? If I subscribe half the year that is 120 per year and that would last a bit over 8 years...

[stratatonic]

Back to this poll, I share Tritone’s sentiment about earning the trust back. I’m not sure how long that will take, but it could happen. I can’t say how many versions I’ll skip because I have zero clue about what is going into future versions.
So I’ll wait to see if there’s value in any future upgrade(s). And I’ll choose the undecided option in the poll.
But I’ll wait for a half off sale to 99. (Because a half off deal will be coming.Before the end of 2022. Enoch! A reminder to set that calendar of yours!)
However it’s extremely unlikely that I’ll upgrade in 2022 anyways.

[joeyluck]

I've always felt like DAW value in general is incredibly disproportionate from other software. Not that I ever wanted to he charged more lol.

A DAW is the software that I use to create my songs and sound design. It is the the software that hosts all these other plugins; plugins that I pay as much and more for.

Reason gets a new version roughly every two years. I always looked at the $129 and thought, "How do they stay afloat with that?" I look at what else I bought throughout the year and it's crazy what I've paid to other devs for plugins that cost as much and more just per plugin.

Right now all my value is placed on Mimic and the new Combinator. I think that is hands down worth $129. Depending on further development of the Combinator and Mimic, it might be worth $199 IMO.

Of course I'd pay $199 for an upgrade if I felt it added that value. I'd pay $499 for an upgrade if I felt it added that much value (although that would be difficult for sure to add that much value and communicate that much value).

I have high hopes for R12. I hope they can live up to it. R13 out of the gate at $199 will have to deliver.

[kitekrazy]

Nobody really knows what will make a lot of money.

For all we know, someone could come out with something like allihoopa and become a billion dollar company overnight.

This stuff happens all the time, and it happens precisely because we just don't know, so can only find those stars and cash cows through experimentation and trial and error.

Remember when so many investors and market experts are certain Tesla was just a fad or a bubble? And SpaceX?

Nobody knows.

It's a tiny and crowded market where you can't even give away Sonar.

It's true.
What ends up making money in the world is often a complete mystery to me.
The tiny crowded maket is the part that makes me think...just get in with Logic Live or PT and be done with it. And I will once Reason really dies. Till then I'll just carry on speding money one way or the other.

Higher end or popular software can get away with subs. Reason is neither. I can understand PT as a sub because people need it for working in the industry despite it not begin their choice of DAW. Sequoia is a high end DAW that was one of the first subs. I'm surprised Nuendo is not a sub but Steinberg vows to not go in that direction.

[moofi]

You left the most important part out of the calculation. The amount of value a perpetual license has for you in a situation where you would like to use or even need the software and you just can´t because you might be in a situation where you cannot afford a subscription. Imagine being locked out of Reason over a longer period, when you cannot access it because the financial situation doesn´t allow you to. Especially imagine that after 8 years.

Even without that financial situation Reason might develope into a direction you really don´t want it to. With a perpetual license I can always say, "no, I´m not buying the new version" and keep on making music with the version I like. With subscription you would then be forced to work with that version you don´t really like and it´s succesors you might not really like either or even less. Even if you have a perpetual license prior to your point of using subscription 8 years ago you can go back on, basically the editability or even just ability of opening the work you did over those 8 years is gone.

What if the company is sold to another daw developer that integrates only parts of it in their product with a crossgrade offer that let´s you merely obtain the other DAW for a lower price but not open your songs you had been working on over the years?

I feel like these or alike possible scenarios often are being left out of the calculation as the usual calculation takes merely the effective money to be payed over time into account.

I did some thinking about buying Reason vs Reason+

Reason 499, upgrade 199
Subscription 19.95 per month or 199 per year upfront.

So full price Reason is 2.5 year of subscription, and most likely there will be an upgrade during that time span so thats another year for the subscription. You want Friction, Complex and Algorith and maybe Pattern Mutator as well? Thats another 2 years of subscription and then you still have access to all the other things from Reason Studios, that are already present or forthcoming.

So 5 years of subscription, 995. Reason full price + 1 upgrade and those 4 RE's 1099 (Of course this doesn't take into account any sales or price for the subscription getting higher)

So if I own Reason before? Well then its 199 for the upgrade the same as the subscription. The 4 REs are 401 thats another 2 years of subscription. And by the end of that time I guess there is another upgrade and som other "must have" REs that have been released.

Dont need Reason the year around? If I subscribe half the year that is 120 per year and that would last a bit over 8 years...

[bxbrkrz]

Yamaha owns Steinberg. Yamaha is almost a state within the state of Japan. They sale hardware, from gigantic pianos, to https://www.yamahaboats.com/ to https://yamaha-motor.com/

They don't care about a DAW subscription to stay alive.

[plaamook]

And Apple owns logic. Same. They could practically give logic away. Standard in every Mac. (I so wish I liked logic)
So in these cases the corporate model is fine, but you need to really do it!

[tc13]

A lot of "What if" that... cant really do any sort of calculations with that many unknown quantities....

And if Reason for some reason become unusable in the future I just have to make do with Mixbus or some of the other DAWs I have, really not a big deal.

And if my finances ever go so bad that 20 dollars/euros a month would make or break it then Reason probably is the last of my worries

So no I didn't leave anything important out!

You left the most important part out of the calculation. The amount of value a perpetual license has for you in a situation where you would like to use or even need the software and you just can´t because you might be in a situation where you cannot afford a subscription. Imagine being locked out of Reason over a longer period, when you cannot access it because the financial situation doesn´t allow you to. Especially imagine that after 8 years.

Even without that financial situation Reason might develope into a direction you really don´t want it to. With a perpetual license I can always say, "no, I´m not buying the new version" and keep on making music with the version I like. With subscription you would then be forced to work with that version you don´t really like and it´s succesors you might not really like either or even less. Even if you have a perpetual license prior to your point of using subscription 8 years ago you can go back on, basically the editability or even just ability of opening the work you did over those 8 years is gone.

What if the company is sold to another daw developer that integrates only parts of it in their product with a crossgrade offer that let´s you merely obtain the other DAW for a lower price but not open your songs you had been working on over the years?

I feel like these or alike possible scenarios often are being left out of the calculation as the usual calculation takes merely the effective money to be payed over time into account.

I did some thinking about buying Reason vs Reason+

Reason 499, upgrade 199
Subscription 19.95 per month or 199 per year upfront.

So full price Reason is 2.5 year of subscription, and most likely there will be an upgrade during that time span so thats another year for the subscription. You want Friction, Complex and Algorith and maybe Pattern Mutator as well? Thats another 2 years of subscription and then you still have access to all the other things from Reason Studios, that are already present or forthcoming.

So 5 years of subscription, 995. Reason full price + 1 upgrade and those 4 RE's 1099 (Of course this doesn't take into account any sales or price for the subscription getting higher)

So if I own Reason before? Well then its 199 for the upgrade the same as the subscription. The 4 REs are 401 thats another 2 years of subscription. And by the end of that time I guess there is another upgrade and som other "must have" REs that have been released.

Dont need Reason the year around? If I subscribe half the year that is 120 per year and that would last a bit over 8 years...