New Pricing for Reason 12 - Upgrades now 199 from 129

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

There is nothing in a Reason update worth that much. This will be my last Reason upgrade, just so I can get M1 and High res graphics. I understand inflation, but reason is giving less and less each year while the competition gets better and better.

How many failed half assed business plans have they tried now?

1. Lets jump on the DAW thing. Thats the ticket. Oh wait... that didnt work, it pissed off all the old reason users. Lets just jam them together.

2. Apps are the future. Mobile. Apps! Its a golden ticket. Then they abandon it all after it turned out not to the the gravy train they thought following the herd would be.

3. Collaboration! That's it. Social Media! Doh. Half assed it again. Ended up selling it off.

4. App stores! Thats it! We'll be just like Apple and make an App Store. Everyone loves those! Well... its still there but they don't even push it anymore.

5. SaS is the big new thing. Look everyone is going to it, lets do that too! It'll totally be a hit! Doh.

These are all actions of a flailing company that really has no idea what its doing. Just commit to something.

It's not too late to dedicate this upgrade to battered women around the world a la Dreadbox! Maybe that'll work.

[AttenuationHz]

anyone who thinks the price increase will lead to reason getting better is kidding themselves. The VC and CEO running the joint are awful people and do not care about you or music makers. People say "it's just business" but I think people who operate business that way are simply not people to trust.

As someone else in this thread said, Props/RS have jumped and basically failed on every marketing/biz bandwagon. Things started to go bad the day the brought in Alihoopa. It's been garbage after garbage since, with a few silver linings like VST.

I am sad and fearful of what is ahead with these ominous previews.

It remains to be seen how the resources will be spent, anyone who thinks they won't put money into development of features and new content hasn't really got a clue what their talking about. The influx in the userbase because of the subscriptions has already trickled down into R12 - albeit the plan to release was poorly executed but packed with features some of which are unfinished; I am one of the harshest critics of that execution and how much work remains to put it to a point were you could call it a release. However to say that 2 individuals are "awful people" is way over the top. Do you even know them personally to make that determination? It is personal attacks and comments like these that damages any hope RS will do the right thing by its users. Absolutely no need for it!

[craste]

I love Reason and want to support the company as much as possible.

If Reason 12 had track markers, track folders and even if the grid was colored like Abletons so you can easily see each set of 4 or 8 bars as they are different shade from the next (really helpfull) it would be an insta buy for me even without the HD graphics or the new combinator.

As it stands I think I'll refrain from upgrading and see if the future announcemnts are worth £200 for the upgrade, otherwise I'm feeling pressurised into buying it with a bit of 'fear of loss' and nobody likes a pushy salesman. If the future updates don't cater for the quality of life sequencer updates, then I really fear for the future of Reason Studios as I will not upgrade and I'm sure many others on here won't either.

If I did succumb and upgrade to save the money then I would really need to see sequencer upgrades soon.

Reason Studios, give your head a wobble - just sort out the Sequencer upgrades, you are missing such a big trick by ignoring it!

[guitfnky]

know what’s amazing? after R+ was announced, they kept saying “we need to deliver enough to prove it’s worth subscribing”. apparently the best way they could think to do that is to crank up the cost of perpetual licenses.

[Djstarski]

There is nothing in a Reason update worth that much. This will be my last Reason upgrade, just so I can get M1 and High res graphics. I understand inflation, but reason is giving less and less each year while the competition gets better and better.

How many failed half assed business plans have they tried now?

1. Lets jump on the DAW thing. Thats the ticket. Oh wait... that didnt work, it pissed off all the old reason users. Lets just jam them together.

2. Apps are the future. Mobile. Apps! Its a golden ticket. Then they abandon it all after it turned out not to the the gravy train they thought following the herd would be.

3. Collaboration! That's it. Social Media! Doh. Half assed it again. Ended up selling it off.

4. App stores! Thats it! We'll be just like Apple and make an App Store. Everyone loves those! Well... its still there but they don't even push it anymore.

5. SaS is the big new thing. Look everyone is going to it, lets do that too! It'll totally be a hit! Doh.

These are all actions of a flailing company that really has no idea what its doing. Just commit to something.

You forgot Balance .

[BRIGGS]

[deepz13]

My 5-theme message to the Reason Studio Leadership

Theme #1. Business Advantages of Subscription Model - From Reason studios business perspective, this is a gold mine, Adobe did it with Creative Cloud, Microsoft did it with 360, and everyone is experimenting to find their sweet spot, the lure of annuity revenue is irresistible, and makes great business sense.

As a loyal user I won't come in your way, after all I have many subscriptions already, including in the creative space, and why won't I like to enjoy the best product every single day for a reasonable rental. But for the ka Ching from the young millennial born in-the-subscription-model musicians, you can't alienate your long standing loyal fanbase, allow us to come on board the subscription model one step at a time, be gentle for we are old, yes but also remember we were the steady shoulder on which you stood for long.

Theme #2. The REAL Product Roadmap - If reason studios feel the future focus is not in being a DAW, then so be it, be clear about it, don't leave us in the lurch, take us along and help us plan a transition, nothing wrong with your aspirations, we are with you, as a tolerant community that we are, you would agree that we always valued and promoted diversity and inclusiveness

Your fanbase is surely fragmented and scattered around the world, but we are not dumb. We are intelligent, respect us please and be transparent. For instance, Reason 12 Upgrade ($129) looked pathetic against what you offered as a version (from R11 to R12) upgrade, and especially against what your peers offered as genuine value out there in the market. The backlash was so huge that your CEO had to intervene, unprecedented!
And what did you do next? Placed the upgrade against a $200 threat, to make $129 offer look relatively good. Knee-jerk reaction I read. Is this respecting your users? Fire your marketing folks, or your strategy advisors for they are pushing you down the one-way slippery slope, there will be no coming back. Or the leaders are short on their revenue targets and offsetting the low volumes with a price increase. whatever be your internal compulsions, it doesn't matter to us tangibly.

Imagine how easy would it have been to release MiMIC at $79 and a Combinator Plus at $49 (lets agree its mostly a cosmetic evolution for Combi), instead of calling it R12. The HiRes graphics engine alone can't be the reason you version up your product from R11 to R12, ridiculous if you sit back and think about it. Where are the core workflow improvements on the DAW? Release R12 in January when we have VST3 support, would have been such a compelling value proposition. We might have then had many positive conversations around social media instead of all this negativity. But you are wise and we least expect this half-baked move from you. Is someone holding a gun against your head or something, I wonder!

Theme #3. Am empathetic Customer Roadmap - to bring your loyal fanbase onto the subscription model, a customer roadmap is key. Its a roadmap season after all, its confusing and murky currently.

Lets not cry and make the spilt milk salty for the cat, so lets move on, and I suggest the following, in broad contours -
= For R11 Suite - the R11 Suite users reason gets 36 months of R+ free, and they surrender the perpetual licences and migrate into the subscription model right away (36 months should be weighed against what i ploughed in upwards of a 1000 greenbacks just in the last 4 to 5 years for Suite and the many REs I have bought for perpetuity, and looks very reasonable to my left brain)
= For R11 Std - the R11 Standard users gets 24 months of R+ free, and they surrender the perpetual licences and migrate into the subscription model right away
= For R10 & Below - the R10 & Below gets 12 months of R+ free, and they surrender the perpetual licences and migrate into the subscription model right away

For those who don't migrate, their version of reason will get obsolete as the operating systems keep upgrading, for Mac users Intel is obsolete and M1 is already knocking at our doors or inside the studio already. Btw, these aren't offered really free to users if you think about it, for we are selling you back the perpetual licenses we had bought, all for you to nudge a migration into your subscription model. And imagine, at the end of 36 months, we have the entire user base migrated into a subscription model, enjoying music making in the company of the new subscription users.

Theme #4. Of course its a Business - but Reason Studios (or propellerhead for many of us) should be about music making first, money should just be a delightful after effect, never the core purpose, can a wise man confirm this for us if we fear we have swayed away from the path towards singularity.

To you, the business leaders at Reason Studios, we know must be, secretly or blatantly, nurturing ambitions to drum up valuations and become the next unicorn, but the music making industry is to a great extent corporate-greed-proof. At least there are interesting, reasonable, peer-reviewed and easily accessible alternatives mushrooming every now and then, thanks to the internet economy. We know you are aware and tracking the micro and mega trends shaping the scene, you need no education. Just look around and see how the scene for independent music producers opened up, inspite of the tight grip of the big record labels around promotion and distribution. Am not Justin Bieber, but see how it makes it easy for someone like me, an average Joe on the street, to release songs for everyone around the world to listen and enjoy, whenever they want, wherever they are, and build a base of loyal audience, the wind beneath my wings.

I don't think this community ever created such a ruckus about the product or your pricing ever in the past. We respect your sweat and we will happily pay, even a premium, for a quality product, we want nothing free after all. Help me create music and share it faster, workflow productivity improvements should be the backbone that help us stand straight (if you aspire to be a DAW), and then the creativity tools with all your amazing REs, I also should acknowledge and thank you for the door you left wide open for painting our music with some of the amazing tools out there dressed up in VST format, and happy to learn that you are committed to bring VST3 support by January next year, late but forward looking and sweet!

Theme #5. The pot at the end of the rainbow - has in it not just our hard-earned money (from whatever little the tax man leaves us with, a significant portion of which gets routed to music production, and to our better-half's dismay and frequent threats, do you feel the pressure on our pockets) but also our goodwill, recommendations and referrals, and genuine brand ambassadorship, and that's invaluable, money can never buy.

For the positive, we are all reacting, reacting strongly, which means we aren't indifferent, the real danger, instead you will find we are emotionally engaged with you, if you take a minute to reflect, btw that's a marketer's dream. There is no absolute right, wrong or truth, only point of views, and this was is another one, from a long time reason user who is deeply in love with you. Neither are you a fly-by-night-operator, nor are we as users in this game for a one-night stand with you. Both of us will be around, we will keep bumping into each other, lets learn to respect our mutual interest, we are in for a long-term relationship, isn't it.

We are disappointed at things, the way they stand, and since we love reason, our heart bleeds. As I thought about things that happened over the past month or so, I realised the best I could do for you RS, was to not be bitter and grumpy and spread the negativity anymore, but try and suggest a way forward, and hence this lengthy note. Thank you for your patient reading.

[EnochLight]

I'm not happy about the price increase but don't think I have seen the mods try to overly defend it.

Yeah, I mean even Enochlight is saying nothing and we all know how he is.

Stepping in despite the obvious bait..

I’ve already made myself clear, but I’ll do it again since it seems necessary: I feel the price increase is 100% warranted and also feel Reason is worth it. I also feel the *TIMING* of announcing such a price increase NOW was a train wreck of a blunder. This should have been announced months ago, IMHO. Or next year. But not right after 12’s launch.

@hurricane: your move.

[Carpainter]

they could easily add at least a few features that wouldn’t result in that sort of outcome. metering springs to mind, and they could even do basic math/logic without things needing to go that far. think some of the stuff you can do in Thor, but without having to add a Thor device.

not sure they’d suffer for it even if they did go that far. Ableton does just fine selling their own devices despite the existence of Max 4 Live, for example. but you may be right about how RS sees it/why it may never happen.

Yeah, I can also think of a couple minor tweaks, but ultimately I feel like not turning Combinator into something along the lines of Reaktor is a half-measure at best. It really is begging to be something more than a knob machine.

[miscend]

New Live 11 Suite installed , Reason uninstalled, happy ... it's over , when it's over

"Reason user since 1997"

More like a bitter divorce after 24yrs of marriage.

[miscend]

the thing about the new combi that gets me is that—yeah, it’s an improvement, but it’s not that much of an improvement. most of it is visual, not functional. even the functional stuff (more controls) is not much different than what was there before—just more of them.

between that and the other <checks notes> THREE features in 12, it’s absolutely bonkers to try to sell this at $200. oh right, they want us to pay $240 a year to use it instead.

yeesh.

Well actually that's true. It's just more controls on the GUI but not so sure you can build devices that are more complex than before. I'd actually like improvements to the scripting, if they could put in a visual way to add in logical operations AND/OR/NOT/XOR etc etc. And then some utility devices that can be put on the front panel like metering and spectrum displays. Then it will be a beast.

[Last Alternative]

I’m almost impressed!
Props really forgot their roots.

[gullum]

the thing about the new combi that gets me is that—yeah, it’s an improvement, but it’s not that much of an improvement. most of it is visual, not functional. even the functional stuff (more controls) is not much different than what was there before—just more of them.

between that and the other <checks notes> THREE features in 12, it’s absolutely bonkers to try to sell this at $200. oh right, they want us to pay $240 a year to use it instead.

yeesh.

Well actually that's true. It's just more controls on the GUI but not so sure you can build devices that are more complex than before. I'd actually like improvements to the scripting, if they could put in a visual way to add in logical operations AND/OR/NOT/XOR etc etc. And then some utility devices that can be put on the front panel like metering and spectrum displays. Then it will be a beast.

yes I made a speaker sim in Combinator1 with 4 options pressing the 4 knobs would go from un affected to small speaker- laptop - cell phone - mono but pressing would not un press the other buttons, the combinator needs adding the option to control the buttons / knobs in the combinator too, not just the devices inside the combinator.

[guitfnky]

the thing about the new combi that gets me is that—yeah, it’s an improvement, but it’s not that much of an improvement. most of it is visual, not functional. even the functional stuff (more controls) is not much different than what was there before—just more of them.

between that and the other <checks notes> THREE features in 12, it’s absolutely bonkers to try to sell this at $200. oh right, they want us to pay $240 a year to use it instead.

yeesh.

Well actually that's true. It's just more controls on the GUI but not so sure you can build devices that are more complex than before. I'd actually like improvements to the scripting, if they could put in a visual way to add in logical operations AND/OR/NOT/XOR etc etc. And then some utility devices that can be put on the front panel like metering and spectrum displays. Then it will be a beast.

totally. metering, some basic math/logic (e.g. difference between this signal level and that plus the operators you describe), and potentially some additional inputs/outputs (CV+audio), and you wouldn’t be able to pry me away from it.

[RobBarnett]

Being a long term Reason user is like being on a roller coaster.

- we're getting VST support - Yey
- but only vst 2.4 and not midi - oh
- we're getting HD graphics - Yey
- but many elements are still SD - oh
- we're getting zoom - yey
- but its the whole application - oh
- we're getting a new Sampler - yey
- but it can't load Rex files or do tempo detection or other slice points other than transient - oh
- Reason 12 is out - yey
- but there are loads of bugs - oh
- combinator 2 - yey
- no sequencer improvements- oh
- roadmap is communicated and they're gonna fix loads of the above - yey
- price is going up - oh

Seriously considering switching to Logic now (one £200 payment, once) as the constant ups and downs from RS just creates so much negative energy

[Arrant]

I think this is why Ernst left the company. He's a music guy first and already plenty rich so he didn't need to put the squeeze on any more than what was needed to keep the company profitable.
But profits were sliding so he saw all this coming with the need for subscriptions and price hikes, after all there are employees to care for. He couldn't bear taking those cold-hearted decisions so he sold it all off to the faceless and heartless capitalism machine, and here we are.

[helmutson]

I think this is why Ernst left the company. He's a music guy first and already plenty rich so he didn't need to put the squeeze on any more than what was needed to keep the company profitable.
But profits were sliding so he saw all this coming with the need for subscriptions and price hikes, after all there are employees to care for. He couldn't bear taking those cold-hearted decisions so he sold it all off to the faceless and heartless capitalism machine, and here we are.

Exactly what I'm thinking. Since Propellerheads became Reasonstudios I was very suspicious about that.
There is much more behind the courtain than we will ever learn. Reason is no longer in good hands since then.
Very sad story , esp. for a guy who worked with that wonderful software since the very first days.
I should finally let go ...

[jamespember]

anyone who thinks the price increase will lead to reason getting better is kidding themselves. The VC and CEO running the joint are awful people and do not care about you or music makers. People say "it's just business" but I think people who operate business that way are simply not people to trust.

As someone else in this thread said, Props/RS have jumped and basically failed on every marketing/biz bandwagon. Things started to go bad the day the brought in Alihoopa. It's been garbage after garbage since, with a few silver linings like VST.

I am sad and fearful of what is ahead with these ominous previews.

I think that's ultimately pretty fair feedback - this company has tried its hand at a bunch of different ventures (social, hardware, mobile) over the years, none of which have really stuck. Leaving aside the issue of whether companies should try continue to innovate and invest in burgeoning areas (that's truly another topic for another day), you can call me biased but I have a slightly more optimistic take on where we are at now. Let me explain.

When Niklas took over the CEO role in 2019, the company stopped focusing on anything that is not related to Reason itself. Allihoopa was shut down, development was stopped on the mobile apps, we stopped investing in other potential platforms like the web and all the internal resources and focus shifted back onto Reason and how to setup Reason for the future - and make it the best and most creative music making experience out there.

This wasn't going to happen overnight though, it had to happen in stages to ensure we'd be setup to succeed over time, not just in the short-term.

First, we invested in the Reason Rack Plugin (R11) to ensure Reason can be used by as many music makers as possible regardless of where they make music, we then focused on building out Reason+ to ensure we have a way to keep the Reason content as fresh as possible and that we have a business model and way to get Reason that is equipped for the future (because subscriptions are only going to become more ubiquitous, but yes, we'll continue to support both models) and then finally, we rebuilt huge parts of Reason under the hood to make sure we have a solid base to move forward from.

Now that this groundwork is in place (RRP, R+, tech overhaul), we now enter the stage where we will really get to work on some of the more core parts of Reason itself, which we've stated in the latest roadmap blog post (vst3, m1, workflow, sequencer etc). We have also stated that we plan to move to a continuous delivery model where we try and update Reason more often and we've already shown that we plan to be more transparent and open with our roadmap and product priorities.

So yes, it's been a few years since Niklas took over in 2019 and I know that has been frustrating for many of you, but the truth is, all these initiatives over the last few years have led to that this company is entirely focused on Reason (whether that be DAW, RRP, R+ or Perpetual) and making it the most creative and best music making software and experience we can. As many of you have already pointed out, with our historical forays into other ventures, that hasn't always been true, but it is true now, and I think that's really exciting.

Now, everyone is free to disagree of course and we'll definitely make mistakes along the way (we're only human), and we surely won't be able to please everyone with what we choose to build or how we choose to market the products, but we're out here, listening to you all, and trying to do our best.

I have pretty thick skin (working in startups and software for over a decade will do that to you!), but reading that some of our users genuinely believe we are driven by money or bankers or selling the company to the highest bidder is the one thing that really can get to me! We are a tight, committed team of 43 creative humans who come to work everyday because we just love music and love trying to make our company a better place to work and a successful company in general. Whilst the commercial realities of running a business exist, and it's of course great to see the business growing and doing well, those sorts of things are a mile away from being what really drive the people at this company to get up every morning.

OK, wow, that turned out longer than I had originally planned and I hope that didn't come off as too defensive, but I just wanted to share these thoughts and reflections with this community.

Have a nice evening everyone and happy music making! <3

[avasopht]

I think this is why Ernst left the company. He's a music guy first and already plenty rich so he didn't need to put the squeeze on any more than what was needed to keep the company profitable.
But profits were sliding so he saw all this coming with the need for subscriptions and price hikes, after all there are employees to care for. He couldn't bear taking those cold-hearted decisions so he sold it all off to the faceless and heartless capitalism machine, and here we are.

We are the driving force of this so-called "heartless capitalism machine".

$199 is really not a lot of money, even if that was an annual cost.

What matters to me is just that they come correct. And if they can deliver, if you really don't like the "heartless capitalism machine", then it is your responsibility to be the change you want to see and be a less heartless capitalist yourself.

But it's not that easy, because it means supporting the workers who supply your needs, even when they're having a bad week, month, or year.

Corporations are ruthless because our purchasing habits are ruthless.

And so, we are the driving force of this so-called "heartless capitalism machine".

[friday]

...but reading that some of our users genuinely believe we are driven by money or bankers or selling the company to the highest bidder is the one thing that really can get to me!...

Nice statement and I really believe you!! But then, when money is not the driver, why the hell didn't you wait until January with the increase (when some essential work with the HiRes and others are completed). This decision is just so confusing to me, it is not about the price its about the timing! That question driving me really crazy, could not understand, after all this positive groove with the open communication, now it is fizzled out. Such a pity.

[Arrant]

We are the driving force of this so-called "heartless capitalism machine".

I think you'll have to explain that to me, 'cause I don't get it.

[BRIGGS]

We are the driving force of this so-called "heartless capitalism machine".

I think you'll have to explain that to me, 'cause I don't get it.

There is no capitalism without the consumer.

IOW, it takes two to tango.

[helmutson]

Nice words, good luck then ... bye

[fieldframe]

Now that this groundwork is in place (RRP, R+, tech overhaul), we now enter the stage where we will really get to work on some of the more core parts of Reason itself, which we've stated in the latest roadmap blog post (vst3, m1, workflow, sequencer etc). We have also stated that we plan to move to a continuous delivery model where we try and update Reason more often and we've already shown that we plan to be more transparent and open with our roadmap and product priorities.

Thanks for this thoughtful response! I hope this vision comes to fruition and we really do see a new level of great things coming from Reason.

[Arrant]

When Niklas took over the CEO role in 2019, the company stopped focusing on anything that is not related to Reason itself. Allihoopa was shut down, development was stopped on the mobile apps, we stopped investing in other potential platforms like the web and all the internal resources and focus shifted back onto Reason and how to setup Reason for the future - and make it the best and most creative music making experience out there.

Thanks as always for chiming in, it does indeed take some thick skin to come on here to defend the company, and I for one am glad you're here sharing some inside info.
What you're saying about this decision is exactly what most of us were crying out for when Props lost the plot with all the apps and the Allihoopa stuff, so good job there Niklas.

I have pretty thick skin (working in startups and software for over a decade will do that to you!), but reading that some of our users genuinely believe we are driven by money or bankers or selling the company to the highest bidder is the one thing that really can get to me! We are a tight, committed team of 43 creative humans who come to work everyday because we just love music and love trying to make our company a better place to work and a successful company in general. Whilst the commercial realities of running a business exist, and it's of course great to see the business growing and doing well, those sorts of things are a mile away from being what really drive the people at this company to get up every morning.

I do not doubt that the RS staff care about their products and the company, I think that still shines through and still helps make Reason unique. However owners don't necessarily care too much what their employees think, or let them in on their strategies.
In the end the company is owned by venture capitalists, who really only do one thing: Increase short-term profit, dress up the bride, and get rid. Oh, that's three things I suppose.
We all had our fears when they took over, and there is a feeling now that their agenda is starting to show. Things feel more rushed now, with weird timings for the subscription announcement and this price hike along with the premature R12 release.
I wouldn't mind the price hike if the product evolved enough to justify it, I would gladly pay $199 every two years or even more often if the upgrades were frequent-er. But, the way existing users are forced to blindly upgrade by a certain date when the actual product we're upgrading to is clearly lacking kind of gets to me. Get the software right first, then you can start the marketing schemes.