Reverb after Haas, or before?

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deeplink
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Location: Dubai

Post 24 Mar 2021

Something that I've been circling around;

Irrespective of which may sound better, which is technically better in terms of potential phasing issues;

1. Reverb then Haas effect
2. Haas Effect then reverb
3. NO, do not use them together at all
4. No difference

Some background, the reason why I'm asking is basically because in other tracks, the reverb I hear somehow sound wider and almost more natural.

RV7000 and RV7 simply don't sound like it. However I feel like I get closer to it when I use a Haas effect on the reverb or visa versa.

Maybe there's something else I haven't considered?

Is it really all about actually buying Blackhole, Deep-Space or at the very least - a better convulution sample within the RV7000?

If someone has any reverb tips, other than low cutting, please share

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Billy+
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Post 24 Mar 2021

What sample are you using and do you know if it's stereo?

I think there is also a post kicking around about creating a "true" stereo RV7000 setup if that's something you might consider.

As for the actual question I can't honestly answer as it's not something that I actively use (hass)

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Noise
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Post 24 Mar 2021

Have you considered two instances of the RV7000 for L / R with some differences in the settings ?


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Jackjackdaw
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Post 24 Mar 2021

I only just discovered, lurking in the factory sounds , a stereo plate verb combi . I put it head to head with the Arturia plate, my benchmark for an awesome sounding verb and it came out pretty good! Could probably get it better with a bit of tweaking. I will definitely check out Selig's patch. I am always entirely underwhelmed by RV7000 on its own, I'm keen to learn how to dial it in.

deeplink
Posts: 315
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Location: Dubai

Post 24 Mar 2021

So just had a look into those Stereo Plate etc. Combinators.

They actually sound less stereo... Until you click the designated stereo width button - then it sounds great. Though when I look to see what that button is assigned to, it's essentially a pre-delay to one of the L or R reverbs.

So like, basically Haas effect.

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Billy+
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Post 24 Mar 2021

How are you getting your hass effect? Mono device with 10-40ms delay for right channel?

deeplink
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Location: Dubai

Post 24 Mar 2021

Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
How are you getting your hass effect? Mono device with 10-40ms delay for right channel?
In my mind the signal doesn't have to be mono. Just a slight delay on the one side? And usually I go between 8 and 16 ms.

Have I been doing it wrong this whole time 😅

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Billy+
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Post 24 Mar 2021

I'm a great believer in if it sounds right it is right.

But then I also say bollox to mono compatibility "buy headphones fu*kers....."

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Billy+
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Post 24 Mar 2021

Producers can take advantage of the Haas Effect by cloning the channel and panning them to the extreme left and extreme right and applying delays on the channels(with the difference within 25-35 ms). The greater the difference in the delay, the more panned towards the channel with the lower delay it sounds. The effect can be enhanced by passing the channel with the greater delay through a low pass filter to remove the higher frequencies or by changing the amplitude of the sounds,

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 24 Mar 2021

Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
I'm a great believer in if it sounds right it is right.

But then I also say bollox to mono compatibility "buy headphones fu*kers....."
Agreed! 👍

Stevegriggs
Posts: 4
Joined: 21 May 2017

Post 03 May 2021

I have used both, my answer is whichever gives the sound you want.

pepe444
Posts: 24
Joined: 29 Jul 2020

Post 03 May 2021

I think if you use it carefully and listening / watching a phase meter you´ll decide witch routing sounds best for your music.
There is no right or wrong way of doing. In fact, most of the times the "wrong" way is the correct one :D
But, you´ll need to check the manufacturers manual to see what kind of stereo reverb is the one you´re using. Some are true stereo some are not, that can affect the haas behavior too.

One nice trick you can use is to duck / compress the reverb using the signal that the reverb is applied to.
You can sidechain a vocal track to its own reverb for example. I like to use spectral compressors for this, they tend to work better then a full spectral range compressor in my opinion.

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BRIGGS
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Location: Orange County California

Post 03 May 2021

Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
But then I also say bollox to mono compatibility "buy headphones fu*kers....."
Image

IKR....anyone listening to music on a phone speaker is "doing it wrong".
R11 Suite

My music made in Reason : https://audius.co/jeff40529158

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guitfnky
Posts: 3286
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 03 May 2021

BRIGGS wrote:
03 May 2021
Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
But then I also say bollox to mono compatibility "buy headphones fu*kers....."
Image

IKR....anyone listening to music on a phone speaker is "doing it wrong".
or in their car, or a home stereo, or... 😆

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BRIGGS
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Post 03 May 2021

guitfnky wrote:
03 May 2021
or in their car, or a home stereo, or... 😆
nah...car or home system is ok...

tiny phone speakers, are the real issue...
R11 Suite

My music made in Reason : https://audius.co/jeff40529158

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integerpoet
Posts: 146
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Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 May 2021

Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
But then I also say bollox to mono compatibility "buy headphones fu*kers....."
That attitude certainly simplifies things, but buying more stuffs often isn't the solution because they already did buy headphones and they bought an Amazon Echo Dot for their garage workbench and something that sounds even worse that's built into the door of their refrigerator and the speaker system at the club is set up to favor punching you in the chest over imaging, especially if they have earplugs in because they are over the age of 23. I mean, it's always your call who to support, but if you're a beggar like me then it would seem unwise to also be a chooser.
Last edited by integerpoet on 03 May 2021, edited 1 time in total.

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integerpoet
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Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 May 2021

Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
Producers can take advantage of the Haas Effect by cloning the channel and panning them to the extreme left and extreme right and applying delays on the channels(with the difference within 25-35 ms). The greater the difference in the delay, the more panned towards the channel with the lower delay it sounds. The effect can be enhanced by passing the channel with the greater delay through a low pass filter to remove the higher frequencies or by changing the amplitude of the sounds,
I know what you just described could be and probably has been done easily in a Combinator, but from a marketing perspective it seems like this formula could be a viable rack extension.

Oh, duh. Of course there are several. Here are some of the straightforward ones.
  • Haas Mixer
    https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... aas-mixer/
    Has four mono inputs which get super-panned into a single stereo output, which makes it the most straightforwardly relevant here. Without actually having used it before, I already wish it had stereo inputs which it would mix down to mono for me. But that doesn't seem like a deal-breaker by any stretch and it might even be a feature if you use it to super-pan a stereo pair closely but not identically. This can apparently also be used as a widener if you crank the delay up high enough and a flanger if you ignore one of the output channels. I think I'll have to trial this one soon.
  • Revolution Virtual Surround
    https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... -surround/
    This one takes it to the next level; it also does front/back and distance and altitude. I don't know if this involves the Haas effect in the mathematical sense, but it does seem to serve a similar super-panning purpose. I already have this, but it seems to cost sound quality in a way I haven't quite put my finger on, so I haven't used it in a while.
  • kHs Haas
    https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... /khs-haas/
    This seems to be less about super-panning and more about widening, which makes me wonder why they didn't name it Widener. Maybe this does something like what the inbuilt Imager and the (free) Ozone Imager VST does? But there's also an L/R switch on the front panel, which makes me wonder. The video and samples are of no help because they're all about a big bundle of which this is a small part. I suppose that's what a trial is for!
Last edited by integerpoet on 03 May 2021, edited 12 times in total.

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 03 May 2021

Never been a fan of short static delays, would rather use mid/side like with the built in Stereo Imager - which is with after a reverb. Use it after the reverb if the source is shorter and the reverb is longer, use it before if the opposite is true.
Which sounds better - try both and see, in some cases the difference can be more subtle while in others more extreme.
Side Note - one of my most used Combinator routings is an A/B switcher for auditioning things like this. IMO it makes a world of difference to listen and press one button repeatedly rather than listen-change routing-listen-change routing etc. For one thing, you can "remote" the button on the Combinator to hardware, then you don't even have to have your eyes open to compare. One trick here is to click the button several times in a row without looking so you no longer know which is which. Then do you A/B comparison more "blind" *but not totally…
Selig Audio, LLC

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integerpoet
Posts: 146
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Location: East Bay, California

Post 03 May 2021

Billy+ wrote:
24 Mar 2021
Knew it was selig. :- Selig's True Stereo RV700 Combinator
Where's the original post for this which goes into exhaustive detail about what it does and why? Because I know he must have written one!

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