Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[Barriott]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

[guitfnky]

• RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.

• RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.

• Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.

• RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.

Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."

That is assuming they released it with the intention to create hype. What if that wasn't the case? What would that do to your argument?

nothing. they were aware that we knew at least a couple of days before the livestream. plenty of time to do something.

[Philup]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

Yes, it is as good as it looks. Works well with RRP too.

[JiggeryPokery]

In order for a subscription service to work, the service being offered needs to not only maintain its value, but improve. Subscriptions literally force the service to continually evolve and improve to stay relevant, else the subs (and revenue) disappear. In a nutshell: active subs give RS new money and incentive to keep improving Reason for all of us.

Make no mistake: third party devs have ALWAYS been competitors with Reason Studios (Propellerhead) from the day Rack Extensions launched. It would be silly for RS to make third party devs go away, and despite the loud voices of a few devs who feel burned, they will still have an opportunity to sell their RE's to Reasoners. In fact, subscribers to Reason will also be able to purchase RE's from third party devs, and as new customers, many of their RE's will be attractive.

Please listen. Please try to understand.

Third Party Devs are NOT and have never been a competitor to Reason Studios (Propellerhead).

Let me repeat that.

Third Party Devs are NOT and have never been a competitor to Reason Studios (Propellerhead).

They are the main competitor to us. We are not a competitor to them, because they take 30-50% of the revenue on every product sold that isn't theirs, plus the 100% of every product of their own, plus ~30% of every bundle, where an individual might get as little as ~1% of the purchase price.

Which bit of that do you not understand or keep conveniently forgetting in order to make fallacious or disingenous arguments to put people's comments down just so you can be seen as the shining knight leaping to Props' defense?

I'm sorry to be harsh but your near-endlessly defensive sycophancy and incorrect statements you posit as fact, with phrases like "literally... make no mistake", is somewhat tiring at times.

So let's be absolutely clear: Third Party RE devs effectively fund, and have always effectively funded, development of competiting PH/RS products, because the amount they earn off us is going to be way more than hosting costs and the mediocre amount of time spent on SDK development. When RE's first appeared, of course one would expect them to release new products, but I don't think any of us quite expected it to be as cynical as it's turned out to be, especially undermining devs by releasing directly competing products, often for free or as part of upgrades. Indeed, this should have been obvious from the start when they did Pulsar. By releasing that for free, it basically nuked the third-party CV tool market from the off. (OK, it's the best looking one, but functionally it's arguably the worst).

And to compound matters, in MHG's quest for quantity over quality, please note that Propellerhead/Reason Studios is a company that do have actual coders. Yet these days to save time and money, rather than create interesting, deep, bespoke products with these apparantly awesome coders, they decided just to use Gorilla Editor to create possibly the majority their new RE products. The minute they started using it too it was over for the third party community because we can't compete against products they're effectively making for FREE via a preset modular system, while still have to be paying them 50 % of what little revenue we get. They get 100% (minus whatever likely bespoke arrangement they have with uJam: it sure as shit will be a better deal than RS give us). The PropShop is not App Store, because however much Agevik thinks he's the new Steve Jobs, he isn't.

I mention that because you also already seem to have forgotten just a couple of weeks ago Agevik sent out a tweet* where, and this made me laugh, he effectively stuck the middle finger up at Ernst, but saying "Everything is awesome now! You had twenty years at this and failed but look how well I've done in 3 years! Praise me!" (which is a bit weird given 2019 results were less than 2018's results, which themselves were less than 2017's results, but hey, maybe 2020 was remarkably spectacular what with half the population of the world stuck at home for eight months: who'd have thought online revenues might go up in a locked down pandemic situation in the 21st Century? ).

So, on the one hand Agevik is saying Reason is more successful than ever as a non-subscription product with lots of new users, but you're saying they can't maintain revenue if people stop subscribing to a product that didn't have a subscription for 21 years! They have to evolve the product whether it's subscription-based or not. Less than a month later he's literally (as in actually literally, not metaphorically) saying they need to lower the barrier of entry to Reason to £20 a month for ever, because that £80 one-off for Reason Intro or Lite or whatever was far too high!

You can't have it both ways. Either Reason is doing well and they don't need subscriptions, or it's actually not doing that well and they think they do. But as I explained in an earlier posts, the ARPU probably —see, this bit isn't fact, this is a hypothesis, the previous paragraphs are facts—won't be that much different over a three-year period for them, but it will have to impact on RE sales because, I'll state this again, subbed users are paying monthly for "free" new content, so their disposable is tied up in that, they're likely to have far less income available on better REs from us.

_______

*Regarding that tweet, I did note a few people also mentioned and tried to explain the very specific phrasing but as usual casual readers fell into the intended trap. Even if more units of Reason were really sold in 2020 than in any year since 1999—and not merely just since Props became Reason Studios (which is likely the shenanigan statistics being used there)—this is still not the same as earning more. Maybe they did, we'''ll see how that pans out in the Autumn, I guess).

https://www.allabolag.se/5565462206/rea ... aktiebolag
https://www.allabolag.se/5590898309/pro ... ssenter-ab

[ulaw]

It's not a huge surprise, is it? The first sign of trouble that I noticed was the Verdane takeover:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7499884

Then the CEO was replaced:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/ernst-n ... -developer

All of this with 'optimistic' press releases of course.

Reason is an investment for a group of people who want to get rich(er), and grow the brand as big as they can. That's the reality that we're in.

Screen Shot 2021-01-28 at 17.45.56.png

Just one of the 'holdings', nestled between oil industry service companies, some online retailers, and marketing companies. Tells you all you need to know really.

So.. is now the time to invest? Theyre going to become filthy stinking rich now right?!?!

Anyone else thinking about the plot to 'Silicon Valley' lol.

[fieldframe]

We all knew current users would rage about any sort of subscription announcement, regardless of how it was communicated, marketed, or otherwise slipped under user's pillow in the middle of the night. So how could they possibly have announced a subscription option any differently? Had they ignored existing users and just changed the website and ran some ads in places like KVR, Gearslutz, etc, and said nothing - do you honestly think the current user base would be any less enraged?

No problem here with a subscription model, as long as it's an option.

That they've buried the standalones at the bottom of the page, and the two main Products links for Reason and Reason+ both take you to the Reason+ ie subscription page hints at a little dishonesty.
Not to mention that the entire blurb on the Reason main page is all about Reason+, as if that's the only option available.

A more honest approach would have been to list Reason+ on the Products page so it's right next to Standard and Suite as a third buying option - Standard £309 Suite $600 Reason+ $20/mo - not the main one.

Right now, it doesn't affect us. But who's to say it won't in due course?
I can't on one hand think of any business model where the licence and sub are offered. Usually they're mutually exclusive.
Time will tell. What a mess.

The way Vital does it is perfect:



Subscription and purchase tiers are all right there, clearly described. No underhanded techniques to steer you toward one or the other.

[Timmy Crowne]

That is assuming they released it with the intention to create hype. What if that wasn't the case? What would that do to your argument?

Fair question. But what would be the purpose of releasing a software update that adds a visible option to the preferences pane with no accompanying documentation to explain it? And what would be the purpose of delaying that explanation for an additional 48 hours? Even if creating anticipation wasn't the objective, it clearly had that effect. That anticipation yielded disappointment among most users who have responded thus far. I believe the ultimate responsibility to manage public perception and expectations about a product must be laid at the feet of the business.

[idliketoremainanon]

Well, if it’s to be reduced to “let the market decide” then we should all really give up now and go learn Ableton....they’re the winners in the market now, right?

DL'd the demo last night.

I'm not bitter, I just hate this feeling like Reason's always hanging by a thread. Every time theres a tremmor, I look into alternatives. I can't help it. Last time it was BitWIg. Didn't like that much. I likePT but the demo wouldn't work last time I tried it.
I just want stable blank industry standard so I can get used to it and get on with making noise. All this niche stuffs a ball ache at times like this.

But it's a very legitimate feeling. I don't think the Reason DAW has many years of life ahead. The company is shifting gears right before our eyes. Do consider the alternatives. None is gonna be perfect. After all Reason is not either and here we are.

[motuscott]

If my aunt had testicles, she would not be my aunt but my uncle.

But would he subscribe?

[esselfortium]

I've been a user since 2003 and there have been "Reason is obviously dying because they aren't doing what I want, it definitely won't last another few years" posts for this entire time. Nearly 20 years of this! I'm sure in another 20 years the doomsayers will still be posting the same thing as confidently as ever.

[arnigretar]

I've been a user since 2003 and there have been "Reason is obviously dying because they aren't doing what I want, it definitely won't last another few years" posts for this entire time. Nearly 20 years of this! I'm sure in another 20 years the doomsayers will still be posting the same thing as confidently as ever.

hehe yeah, true dat. been here since 2000 and before that in the ReBirth community and it's always been like this love it though.

[JiggeryPokery]

I've been a user since 2003 and there have been "Reason is obviously dying because they aren't doing what I want, it definitely won't last another few years" posts for this entire time. Nearly 20 years of this! I'm sure in another 20 years the doomsayers will still be posting the same thing as confidently as ever.

Very true. But there is a difference between dying and fading slowly away into obscurity, however. You only need to look at the public financials to note the downward trend and even losses (although it's impossible to tell what is a real loss and not some tax avoidance weirdness). And as I note above, they have mixed messages.

On the one hand they're saying Reason license sales are strong, but then immediately turn around and say £80 for Reason Intro is too high a barrier to entry for new users. So to fix that they remove that option and instead charge £240 just for the first year of ownership rental!

I love you, essel, I do. But that's some damned telling mixed messaging right there.

[jlgrimes]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

Pretty good.

Its sequencer reminds me the most of "Reason" with similar key commands, A feature similar to Blocks, and Patterns (which takes the Drum Sequencer RE concept and develops it further). For DAW functionality, it does this very well. It also has built-in mastering and show functionality.

Main cons is it can get a little obtuse as it follows the traditional DAW model, which has a more complex learning curve compared to like Reason. While it has pretty good stock effects, it's built-in instruments are fairly basic (although decent).

[PhillipOrdonez]

That is assuming they released it with the intention to create hype. What if that wasn't the case? What would that do to your argument?

Fair question. But what would be the purpose of releasing a software update that adds a visible option to the preferences pane with no accompanying documentation to explain it? And what would be the purpose of delaying that explanation for an additional 48 hours? Even if creating anticipation wasn't the objective, it clearly had that effect. That anticipation yielded disappointment among most users who have responded thus far. I believe the ultimate responsibility to manage public perception and expectations about a product must be laid at the feet of the business.

Not saying they did a great job with the release. But given it is a basic function for the new product, it needed to be in place before launch, right?

Execution could have been better, no doubt. But I doubt they wanted to generate much anticipation among us the perpetuals since the product isn't even aimed at us. ‍♂️

[Dogcat]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

I have Studio One, I get excited about using it, I open it up, and in 15 minutes I'm annoyed by something, totally uninspired, then I go back to Reason or Bitwig.

[Arrant]

I've read every single post in this thread and it's time to throw my (long) 2 cents in.

First of all, great to see more members of Reason Studios's staff popping in. Welcome, hope you have the thick skin to stick around despite all the negativity, some of which is fair and some of which is blatantly unfair. We need you here, the lack of communication from your company has been and still is a problem, more on that later.

Mods, I respect every single one of you for your patience, reflections and obvious Reason knowledge, but your one-sidedness in defending RS no matter what is starting to make it look like you're on the payroll. Correcting baseless accusations and factual errors is of course appreciated, but constantly trying to play down legitimate concerns from a large portion of the user base is not.

The Reason+ launch was about as bad as expected. For us "Reason whales" (a good term coined earlier in this thread I believe) who already have all we need except core DAW improvements, of course the announcement is a disappointment. But it didn't have to be like that, did it?
Launching this service so late in a release cycle when existing users are thirsting for updates is the absolute worst possible timing. Had Reason+ been launched alongside a Reason12 with say VST3 support and improved graphics, this wouldn't have been a problem. Had it been launched slightly after Reason12, there wouldn't have been a problem. Had the website shown Reason12 "normal license" alongside Reason+ on equal footing, there wouldn't have been a problem. In fact I would have felt pretty good about the fact that we could get more Reason users on board, which is good for the company and good for us as users. I would also feel that the discounted Reason suite I picked up earlier was a pretty sweet deal, making the subscription pretty irrelevant for me at least short-term.
However, launching it now, without (in typical RS style) showing off even a glimpse of the new features to come, and making the product website appear like Reason+ is the only option on the table, AND removing the option to buy entry-level versions of the software, AND alienating 3rd party devs by effectively making their products virtually invisible and possibly irrelevant, of course it's going to provoke people. If your management can't see this, well frankly they're amateurs.

Verdane capital, I suspect you had no clue what kind of company you bought did you? I imagine you probably thought you could make some quick strategy changes and turn the company into a very appealing SaaS-company, lifting the valuation considerably before selling the company on or floating it on the stock exchange. It's not hard to find investment capital for SaaS-companies these days, not hard at all, even at ridiculous valuations. But Propellerheads wasn't a SaaS-company was it? Reason isn't accounting software that can be run perfectly in a web browser. Performance-critical and hardware-dependent desktop software like this doesn't really work like that. Nor is Reason like Netflix. It's not Spotify. Soundpacks are not movies or songs that people consume en masse and then mostly forget.
If you DO want to function like a SaaS-company, you'd better get a heck of a lot better at listening to your users and providing predictable roadmaps for the future. And that brings me on to my next point:

What kind of company does RS want to be? Propellerhead software had unique products for its time along with a certain cool and a CEO who didn't seem like he only cared about money. This coolness, and the name, appealed to a certain kind of people who felt at home slightly outside the mainstream. This helped create a great community that drew in brilliant individuals who made lots of tutorials, refills and (later) Rack Extensions which in turn helped the company grow. In this sceario, the company can thrive even while being quite secretive and - well - weird as long as the community is encouraged and helped along (i.e. given tools and exposure).
With the name change, company sale and CEO replacement (to be fair, it probably started even before all this with the PUF forum closure which was an enormous mistake) we are clearly not going in that direction anymore. That's OK, that could certainly work for me as a customer. But then you need to be a different kind of company, one that caters more to the mass market and exceeds quarterly revenue goals. Being that company is hard, and the employees working there need to get their heads out of their behinds and realise they aren't all that cool anymore and that working there is actually a real job. Users have expectations, and those expectations need to be met if you want them to pay for your products. Before investing in your software, they need to know that their investment is future proof. They need roadmaps, they need feature previews, and they need you to take their god damn feature requests seriously instead of working on all sorts of other crap. Yes, I know there are different teams but fringe teams must be managed and paid too.
So what's it gonna be? You can't be both, it doesn't work that way.

[Gothi]

Egocentrically speaking, RS can go grow or self-destruct from here as long as Reason does not cancel the licences to what I got when I fire it up. There is plenty of stuff for a life-time now in R11Suite and add ons. Have never had a feeling of a complete DAW suited for my needs until now. Mission accomplished. You eventually found me, RS, now go find yourself.

[aftrshok99]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

I have Studio One, I get excited about using it, I open it up, and in 15 minutes I'm annoyed by something, totally uninspired, then I go back to Reason or Bitwig.

That's exactly how I feel...LOL

[kimothebeatmaker]

I don’t like the direction things are going for Reason. Last upgrade I paid for was 10, and I’m now positively jumping ship. Craig Walsh at support won’t even let me authorize my computer because I reported it lost so many times 4 years ago. I emailed them a few weeks ago and they still won’t let me renew authorization. 4 years...2 different upgrade versions paid for...still no. That and now this...Lol I’m glad people are jumping ship and the last live stream was a joy to watch. Downvote galore!

[ab459]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

Studio One is can say best traditional DAW, but it only can be exists along with Reason, because Reason is best modular\wire based environment. Nothing can't will be replace it, nor Bitwig, nor VCV etc plugins, nor max\msp etc stuff. This is all incredibly sadder and worse than the divine implementation in Reason\RRP with his CV engine.
If someone says that he could find a replacement and is glad - he is either lying, or initially did not understand what the divinity of the Reason engine is.

[Yonatan]

I've read every single post in this thread and it's time to throw my (long) 2 cents in.

First of all, great to see more members of Reason Studios's staff popping in. Welcome, hope you have the thick skin to stick around despite all the negativity, some of which is fair and some of which is blatantly unfair. We need you here, the lack of communication from your company has been and still is a problem, more on that later.

Mods, I respect every single one of you for your patience, reflections and obvious Reason knowledge, but your one-sidedness in defending RS no matter what is starting to make it look like you're on the payroll. Correcting baseless accusations and factual errors is of course appreciated, but constantly trying to play down legitimate concerns from a large portion of the user base is not.

The Reason+ launch was about as bad as expected. For us "Reason whales" (a good term coined earlier in this thread I believe) who already have all we need except core DAW improvements, of course the announcement is a disappointment. But it didn't have to be like that, did it?
Launching this service so late in a release cycle when existing users are thirsting for updates is the absolute worst possible timing. Had Reason+ been launched alongside a Reason12 with say VST3 support and improved graphics, this wouldn't have been a problem. Had it been launched slightly after Reason12, there wouldn't have been a problem. Had the website shown Reason12 "normal license" alongside Reason+ on equal footing, there wouldn't have been a problem. In fact I would have felt pretty good about the fact that we could get more Reason users on board, which is good for the company and good for us as users. I would also feel that the discounted Reason suite I picked up earlier was a pretty sweet deal, making the subscription pretty irrelevant for me at least short-term.
However, launching it now, without (in typical RS style) showing off even a glimpse of the new features to come, and making the product website appear like Reason+ is the only option on the table, AND removing the option to buy entry-level versions of the software, AND alienating 3rd party devs by effectively making their products virtually invisible and possibly irrelevant, of course it's going to provoke people. If your management can't see this, well frankly they're amateurs.

Verdane capital, I suspect you had no clue what kind of company you bought did you? I imagine you probably thought you could make some quick strategy changes and turn the company into a very appealing SaaS-company, lifting the valuation considerably before selling the company on or floating it on the stock exchange. It's not hard to find investment capital for SaaS-companies these days, not hard at all, even at ridiculous valuations. But Propellerheads wasn't a SaaS-company was it? Reason isn't accounting software that can be run perfectly in a web browser. Performance-critical and hardware-dependent desktop software like this doesn't really work like that. Nor is Reason like Netflix. It's not Spotify. Soundpacks are not movies or songs that people consume en masse and then mostly forget.
If you DO want to function like a SaaS-company, you'd better get a heck of a lot better at listening to your users and providing predictable roadmaps for the future. And that brings me on to my next point:

What kind of company does RS want to be? Propellerhead software had unique products for its time along with a certain cool and a CEO who didn't seem like he only cared about money. This coolness, and the name, appealed to a certain kind of people who felt at home slightly outside the mainstream. This helped create a great community that drew in brilliant individuals who made lots of tutorials, refills and (later) Rack Extensions which in turn helped the company grow. In this sceario, the company can thrive even while being quite secretive and - well - weird as long as the community is encouraged and helped along (i.e. given tools and exposure).
With the name change, company sale and CEO replacement (to be fair, it probably started even before all this with the PUF forum closure which was an enormous mistake) we are clearly not going in that direction anymore. That's OK, that could certainly work for me as a customer. But then you need to be a different kind of company, one that caters more to the mass market and exceeds quarterly revenue goals. Being that company is hard, and the employees working there need to get their heads out of their behinds and realise they aren't all that cool anymore and that working there is actually a real job. Users have expectations, and those expectations need to be met if you want them to pay for your products. Before investing in your software, they need to know that their investment is future proof. They need roadmaps, they need feature previews, and they need you to take their god damn feature requests seriously instead of working on all sorts of other crap. Yes, I know there are different teams but fringe teams must be managed and paid too.
So what's it gonna be? You can't be both, it doesn't work that way.

+1 Good call.

[certifiedbeatz]

• RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.

• RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.

• Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.

• RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.

Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."

I had to reply to this quote this should be on the first page of this thread.. did you see the guy with glasses and long hair all geeked up talking and say I see your questions.. we have a staff to sort through them and point out to other guy I see your in reason studios all by yourself.. they looked so out of tuned .. and Mattias is like well I came up with reason the other guy we can call it reason prime hahaha ha well the joke will be quarter 3 when sales are flat.

[Yonatan]

• RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.

• RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.

• Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.

• RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.

Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."

+1 Good summing.

[arnigretar]

I made this patch in thor while reading over the comments: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sng13wfn9oonb ... thor?dl=0

start the sequencer to play it...
a little meloncholy, maybe fitting. carry on

[Timmy Crowne]

Not saying they did a great job with the release. But given it is a basic function for the new product, it needed to be in place before launch, right?

I actually think the order would have been better reversed. An announcement, blog post, or livestream explaining the way forward before launching the 11.3.7 update would have been more prudent in my opinion. I'm actually open to subscriptions in general. I just think there needs to be a strong value-proposition and a sense of goodwill in place, in order for a subscription plan to be well-received. Now to be clear, I fully agree that a number of users would vehemently object regardless. I just think that number would be far fewer.

Execution could have been better, no doubt. But I doubt they wanted to generate much anticipation among us the perpetuals since the product isn't even aimed at us. ‍♂️

As far as the target audience, I agree 100%. I guess us old guys should just be happy with our old licenses and go on our merry old ways until the next time we see a reason to buy that lines up with our old expectations.