Behringer Swing

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EdGrip
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I see they've done a 1:1 clone of Arturia's Keystep. So fucking grim.

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diminished
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I've read in the YT comments that it'll cost the same - but I have yet to see a price point being mentioned.
Personally I wouldn't mind a Keystep at 1/3 of the price, because let's face it, plastic MIDI controllers are wayyyy overpriced, but that might be just me..
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

iamthor4
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Post 23 Nov 2020

diminished wrote:
23 Nov 2020
I've read in the YT comments that it'll cost the same - but I have yet to see a price point being mentioned.
Personally I wouldn't mind a Keystep at 1/3 of the price, because let's face it, plastic MIDI controllers are wayyyy overpriced, but that might be just me..
yeah would have to be half price

iamthor4
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Post 23 Nov 2020

but that is a blatant copy lol

EdGrip
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Post 23 Nov 2020

It's the fact they can't just make their own midi controller/sequencer at a low price. They have to specifically (and exactly) rip off another company's product.

They have to. Because, that way, they don't have to do any R&D. They don't have to do any market research. The other company paid for those things, and Behringer gets to profit without having put in any investment or risk.
If innovation becomes increasingly risky because Behringer will simply sell the thing you spent time and money designing for half the price, there is less innovation. It's just really flagrantly immoral. There wouldn't be a Keystep at all if Arturia hadn't done it, and maybe they wouldn't have done it had they known this would happen.

iamthor4
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Post 23 Nov 2020

EdGrip wrote:
23 Nov 2020
It's the fact they can't just make their own midi controller/sequencer at a low price. They have to specifically (and exactly) rip off another company's product.

They have to. Because, that way, they don't have to do any R&D. They don't have to do any market research. The other company paid for those things, and Behringer gets to profit without having put in any investment or risk.
If innovation becomes increasingly risky because Behringer will simply sell the thing you spent time and money designing for half the price, there is less innovation. It's just really flagrantly immoral. There wouldn't be a Keystep at all if Arturia hadn't done it, and maybe they wouldn't have done it had they known this would happen.
i had a keystep but i sold it to fund my digital piano there handy to carry about but expensive for what it is , built well though
wonder if these will be

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guitfnky
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Post 23 Nov 2020

the FB post I saw yesterday had it listed at $99.

who cares if it’s a clone? you don’t have to buy it. not any different than cloning guitar pedals and selling them at lower prices (Behringer isn’t the first to do that either—not by a long shot).

some people don’t have boatloads of extra cash to drop on tHe ReAl tHiNg. if you do, that’s awesome—but nobody cares. :lol:
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

iamthor4
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Post 23 Nov 2020

guitfnky wrote:
23 Nov 2020
the FB post I saw yesterday had it listed at $99.

who cares if it’s a clone? you don’t have to buy it. not any different than cloning guitar pedals and selling them at lower prices (Behringer isn’t the first to do that either—not by a long shot).

some people don’t have boatloads of extra cash to drop on tHe ReAl tHiNg. if you do, that’s awesome—but nobody cares. :lol:
is that way less than arturias price though and is the quality as good ?

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diminished
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Post 23 Nov 2020

EdGrip wrote:
23 Nov 2020
It's the fact they can't just make their own midi controller/sequencer at a low price. They have to specifically (and exactly) rip off another company's product.

They have to. Because, that way, they don't have to do any R&D. They don't have to do any market research. The other company paid for those things, and Behringer gets to profit without having put in any investment or risk.
If innovation becomes increasingly risky because Behringer will simply sell the thing you spent time and money designing for half the price, there is less innovation. It's just really flagrantly immoral. There wouldn't be a Keystep at all if Arturia hadn't done it, and maybe they wouldn't have done it had they known this would happen.
I have to agree with that. Some cheap feature-rich controller based on their own design (it's not like they lack experience and resources in making proper keybeds.. ) would have been absolutely fine by anyone's standards.
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

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guitfnky
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Post 23 Nov 2020

iamthor4 wrote:
23 Nov 2020
guitfnky wrote:
23 Nov 2020
the FB post I saw yesterday had it listed at $99.

who cares if it’s a clone? you don’t have to buy it. not any different than cloning guitar pedals and selling them at lower prices (Behringer isn’t the first to do that either—not by a long shot).

some people don’t have boatloads of extra cash to drop on tHe ReAl tHiNg. if you do, that’s awesome—but nobody cares. :lol:
is that way less than arturias price though and is the quality as good ?
I think it’s $30 cheaper, so not a huge difference unless you’re super strapped for cash.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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joeyluck
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Post 23 Nov 2020

Yeah I'm not sure how I feel about it. Some people want to regard Behringer as crappy quality, and under that assessment, it shouldn't be an issue. They shouldn't be a threat if they are in fact crappy quality. But I think people realize that hasn't been the case in a very long time. If your company's quality is much better, then you display that and sell that.

Behringer does make great stuff of their own, like the X32. Maybe others should clone that? Lol. Other companies have been taking ideas for features from it at least.

I like that Behringer shows that they can do it (everything) for cheaper...and maybe that's because of less R&D as mentioned? But the X32 is original and still the least expensive digital mixer. Maybe more companies need to partner with Music Tribe?

IMO if you're not hand-making your synths like Moog, figure out how to compete with Behringer's prices. Make it so they have no wiggle room on making things cheaper.

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guitfnky
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Post 23 Nov 2020

joeyluck wrote:
23 Nov 2020
IMO if you're not hand-making your synths like Moog, figure out how to compete with Behringer's prices. Make it so they have no wiggle room on making things cheaper.
exactly—there’s nothing stopping other companies from doing the same, or from lowering their prices to compete.

people can be way too insistent on paying for a brand, rather than buying smart, for functionality.

the idea that it’s immoral is kind of crazy. companies have been doing this since the dawn of companies. :lol: I’d bet every one of us have more than a few items in our own homes that would also be “immoral” by the same standard—yet no one whines about that.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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eusti
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I read somewhere that Behringer licensed Swing from the same people that Arturia licensed from...
Not sure if that is correct though... Might be smart for Behringer to come out with an official statement rather sooner than later...

D.

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bxbrkrz
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Post 23 Nov 2020

Most people never pay attention. That's why Music Tribe is on top of the food chain. You can always watch Behringer China Factory on YT posted 13 years ago. Most people who still remember the bad days of Behringer are close to, or over 50. Their brand is huge compared to Arturia's.
"I am waiting for the Behringer clone" is a full-fledged internet meme now. Cloning is not a bug, but their main feature. The only way for Behringer to stop is to boycott their products, getting something more expensive instead. Yeah right.

They don't need to make any official statement. Sad.
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EdGrip
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I have noooooo problem boycotting their products and getting something more expensive instead.

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guitfnky
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I hope y’all only buy Kleenex brand tissues. they did all that R&D, after all... :lol:
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

Heater
Posts: 516
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Post 23 Nov 2020

eusti wrote:
23 Nov 2020
I read somewhere that Behringer licensed Swing from the same people that Arturia licensed from...
Not sure if that is correct though... Might be smart for Behringer to come out with an official statement rather sooner than later...

D.
Yep. A fully licensed production. Not a clone.

EdGrip
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I've been googling, and I can't find any reference to Swing or Keystep being "licensed".

Theoretically, it's not possible for most brands to compete with Behringer on price - for the reasons stated above of R&D and market research costs, and brands like Arturia being orders of magnitude smaller than Behringer.

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raymondh
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Post 23 Nov 2020

History is littered with people taking other people's ideas/IP and hard work, and then improving on them - whether that be based on price or features. Some of those items were seen very negative originally but then ultimately became legitimized. e.g. Windows/mouse environment that Apple copied from Xerox, IBM PC clones, Uber taxis, and a ton of other things including music. Keeps the intellectual property lawyers in work :)

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guitfnky
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Post 23 Nov 2020

EdGrip wrote:
23 Nov 2020
I've been googling, and I can't find any reference to Swing or Keystep being "licensed".

Theoretically, it's not possible for most brands to compete with Behringer on price - for the reasons stated above of R&D and market research costs, and brands like Arturia being orders of magnitude smaller than Behringer.
most of these products have been out for years, if not decades—R&D is way in the rear view—if they haven’t recouped their losses by now... so, nothing stopping them from lowering their prices now. unless they’re not even trying to improve their manufacturing process. in either case, 🤷

also, pretty sure Arturia and Moog, and Shure, and Korg, et. al. aren’t hurting for business.

want to pay a premium for name recognition? go for it. want to pay less for the same functionality, and don’t care what name is on the box? go for it. they both meet different desires in the market.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

EdGrip
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Post 23 Nov 2020

I hope it's fairly clear from everything about this thread that I'm not interested in paying a premium "for name recognition", but rather to live in a world with more innovation, not less.

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guitfnky
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Post 23 Nov 2020

EdGrip wrote:
23 Nov 2020
I hope it's fairly clear from everything about this thread that I'm not interested in paying a premium "for name recognition", but rather to live in a world with more innovation, not less.
I don’t think many of us would disagree with that. being on the front edge of those innovations has ALWAYS come at a premium. not everyone is able to live on that front edge, and are perfectly comfortable waiting a few years to save some bucks. hell, given how pissed off people regularly get over Rack Extension pricing/sales makes me wonder how we (collectively) are even having this discussion with a straight face. 😆
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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QVprod
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Post 23 Nov 2020

Arturia isn’t very happy. Legal action possible maybe? First time I’ve seen a response to a clone. Arturia posted this Facebook.

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tt_lab
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Post 23 Nov 2020

As my art teacher used to say "Only God creates, the rest of us plagiarize"

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Koshdukai
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Location: Portugal

Post 23 Nov 2020

diminished wrote:
23 Nov 2020
let's face it, plastic MIDI controllers
The KeyStep line isn't just "a MIDI controller". There are way cheaper alternatives if all you want/need is a plastic MIDI controller.

Behringer cloned it because KeySteps were becoming ubiquitous on many euro-rack or desktop modules sets, which they sell, so, it's yet another piece of the market they want to grab.
guitfnky wrote:
23 Nov 2020
who cares if it’s a clone? you don’t have to buy it. not any different than cloning guitar pedals and selling them at lower prices (Behringer isn’t the first to do that either—not by a long shot).

some people don’t have boatloads of extra cash to drop on tHe ReAl tHiNg. if you do, that’s awesome—but nobody cares. :lol:
The sad thing is that here's a great opportunity to differentiate through evolution/improvement but that seemed to be too much work for them.
It's quite a shitty way to save on R&D which Behringer clearly have, besides manufacturing capabilities.

One thing is to champion "hard-to-get/unavailable synth classics for the masses", another is to do 1:1 copies of products still being sold today by active companies that do their own R&D and need a steady stream of revenue to continue coming up with new original stuff.

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