philosophy of creativity - Music vs. Music Theory - Ignore the Gatekeepers!

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selig
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Post 19 Aug 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
What is infuriating about you is how you are very likable and intelligent and willfully ignorant at the same time. This thread wasn't the first time you've been told to read a fucking book, because you lack perspective to ask the right questions.
Aw man, you had me up until this (last) paragraph. If you had just left this last paragraph off your post, you'd have had a great and rather compelling expression of your arguments. But by adding the personal attack at the end you kinda pulled the rug out from your entire argument.

More importantly, with this paragraph you broke the forum rules by making the attack personal. It doesn't matter you start with saying something positive, btw.
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BRIGGS
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Post 19 Aug 2020

selig wrote:
19 Aug 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
What is infuriating about you is how you are very likable and intelligent and willfully ignorant at the same time. This thread wasn't the first time you've been told to read a fucking book, because you lack perspective to ask the right questions.
Aw man, you had me up until this (last) paragraph. If you had just left this last paragraph off your post, you'd have had a great and rather compelling expression of your arguments. But by adding the personal attack at the end you kinda pulled the rug out from your entire argument.

More importantly, with this paragraph you broke the forum rules by making the attack personal. It doesn't matter you start with saying something positive, btw.
Willful ignorance and/or glorify ignorance, is one of the reasons why modern society is so broken. People are starting to realize the human race has a massive inability to support future generations.

I understand the frustration.
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selig
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Post 19 Aug 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
19 Aug 2020
selig wrote:
19 Aug 2020


Aw man, you had me up until this (last) paragraph. If you had just left this last paragraph off your post, you'd have had a great and rather compelling expression of your arguments. But by adding the personal attack at the end you kinda pulled the rug out from your entire argument.

More importantly, with this paragraph you broke the forum rules by making the attack personal. It doesn't matter you start with saying something positive, btw.
Willful ignorance and/or glorify ignorance, is one of the reasons why modern society is so broken. People are starting to realize the human race has a massive inability to support future generations.

I understand the frustration.
That is nether here nor there, this is a thread about music theory not modern society. And either way, personal attacks are not permitted here, nor do they make one's point.

So please everyone, focus: back on topic!
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EdwardKiy
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Post 19 Aug 2020

selig wrote:
19 Aug 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
What is infuriating about you is how you are very likable and intelligent and willfully ignorant at the same time. This thread wasn't the first time you've been told to read a fucking book, because you lack perspective to ask the right questions.
Aw man, you had me up until this (last) paragraph. If you had just left this last paragraph off your post, you'd have had a great and rather compelling expression of your arguments. But by adding the personal attack at the end you kinda pulled the rug out from your entire argument.

More importantly, with this paragraph you broke the forum rules by making the attack personal. It doesn't matter you start with saying something positive, btw.
My apologies to others who can read this and view it in the same view you did, but not to him. I've argued this with guitfunky in multiple other threads and it all comes down to this. I've made too much effort telling him nicely he needs to read books and get perspective before expressing his opinions on anything like they are facts. I have illustrated this to him in too many ways, so I don't see this as an attack at all. I have honestly pointed him to how he can get better, but he instantly takes offense when there is no agreement. How many times does it take? I'm not his relative and I've told myself that it's better that he gets it anonymously on a forum than in a harsh life lesson. You can bring on the punishment if you feel like it's warranted, I accept.

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BRIGGS
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Post 19 Aug 2020

selig wrote:
19 Aug 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
19 Aug 2020


Willful ignorance and/or glorify ignorance, is one of the reasons why modern society is so broken. People are starting to realize the human race has a massive inability to support future generations.

I understand the frustration.
That is nether here nor there, this is a thread about music theory not modern society. And either way, personal attacks are not permitted here, nor do they make one's point.

So please everyone, focus: back on topic!
Music and society are connected.
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EdwardKiy
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Post 19 Aug 2020

Billy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
I wonder if these knew any music theory?

I'd say yes. They follow very strict rules, which were passed to them through generations and which they also soaked in through listening from childhood. There's rhythm to their movement and their instruments are skillfully made - they are trained professionals in what they do and had to have attained a certain status through various accomplishments to be taught and be allowed to perform some of these dances. James Schultz had more than a few words on this in' "Eagle Catcher and other stories".

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Post 19 Aug 2020

Yes but does that make it theory or just practice?
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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
19 Aug 2020
I stopped being afraid of gatekeepers when I realized they were all the same.
The same monsters who hid under my bed when I was a kid.
They only have power if you believe they exist.
love this. excellent way to approach life. :thumbs_up:
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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
These are rules discovered through trial and error by cavemen that were mirrored with a reward in our neural circuitry as evidence of them being correct.
this is precisely the point. you don't have to be aware of any of these things in order to create music. i.e. you don't need to know theory.
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EdwardKiy
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Post 19 Aug 2020

guitfnky wrote:
19 Aug 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
These are rules discovered through trial and error by cavemen that were mirrored with a reward in our neural circuitry as evidence of them being correct.
this is precisely the point. you don't have to be aware of any of these things in order to create music. i.e. you don't need to know theory.
Sorry, switching up terms doesn't work with me. The cavemen knew they to bang sticks or bones or whatever rhythmically, otherwise it's just noise. They knew that different length of sticks and different surfaces sound different. That was their theory. Knowing things and being aware of knowing things are two completely different things.

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Post 19 Aug 2020

I'm not sure they really knew, nor would they have been able to explain why let alone be able to expand upon the theory with any sense of true understanding. But I guess I would have to accept that my assumptions aren't completely correct nor would it really be possible to disprove it.

Still it's good to see the creative development of modern man has taken stick banging to a whole new level.
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What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
guitfnky wrote:
19 Aug 2020


this is precisely the point. you don't have to be aware of any of these things in order to create music. i.e. you don't need to know theory.
Sorry, switching up terms doesn't work with me. The cavemen KNEW they to bang sticks or bones or whatever rhythmically, otherwise it's just noise. They KNEW that different length of sticks and different surfaces sound different. That was their theory. Knowing things and being aware of knowing things are two completely different things.
this isn’t the philosophy of creativity—you’re veering into the philosophy of human consciousness and what it means to be self-aware.

and you’re saying everyone already knows theory now, on some fundamental human level. so what exactly is there to argue about?
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Post 19 Aug 2020

Taken from
https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/darwin ... s-a-theory

In everyday use, the word "theory" often means an untested hunch, or a guess without supporting evidence.
But for scientists, a theory has nearly the opposite meaning. A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. The theory of gravitation, for instance, explains why apples fall from trees and astronauts float in space.

So in this instance we must be talking about a scientific theory.
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Post 19 Aug 2020

guitfnky wrote:
16 Aug 2020
let's discuss why music theory isn't necessary to make music, and why you shouldn't listen to the purists who try to tell you otherwise.

I think maybe we should all start again, with theory as a scientific theory based on the rules within musical theory. Not a hunch about the cognitive abilities of cave persons :lol:
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What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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Post 19 Aug 2020

I do have to wonder if once upon a time there was a cave man with a stick dragging his cave woman from cave to cave hitting her with a selection of sticks wooden and bone trying to find that perfect reverb with just the right overtones. Maybe he even had a collection of furs to dampen the low end ?
VST 2.4 MIDI It's definitely on the list of todos
What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

Billy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
guitfnky wrote:
16 Aug 2020
let's discuss why music theory isn't necessary to make music, and why you shouldn't listen to the purists who try to tell you otherwise.

I think maybe we should all start again, with theory as a scientific theory based on the rules within musical theory. Not a hunch about the cognitive abilities of cave persons :lol:
definitely wouldn’t mind a reset on some of this discussion. 😅
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bxbrkrz
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Post 19 Aug 2020

Image


Strange how even joking about the life of a caveman is kinda based on a cartoon, a cartoon based on specific rules from a specific culture.

Theory or just practice? Compared to what culture? Yours?
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

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Post 19 Aug 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
19 Aug 2020
Theory or just practice? Compared to what culture? Yours?
Is that a personal attack?

:lol:
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What MIDI tools are you itching to use

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bxbrkrz
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Post 19 Aug 2020

Billy wrote:
19 Aug 2020
bxbrkrz wrote:
19 Aug 2020
Theory or just practice? Compared to what culture? Yours?
Is that a personal attack?

:lol:
:lol:
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aeox
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Post 19 Aug 2020

I think this is a really good topic and thread ( after my brain Lowpassed some portions. )

Here are some discussions in threads from the past

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7515806&p=483787&hi ... ry#p483787

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7513083&p=455602&hi ... ry#p455602

Yea we are influenced by music and sounds we hear of course :)

Since I don't ever usually have to describe it to anyone, I only learn the things that come in that moment where I need to explain it and have to look it up and figure it out. That said, there is all kinds of stuff that I could probably improve on from being taught "music theory". Though, I really enjoy not knowing for some reason. Just making music and venturing.

Even figuring stuff out on accident is music theory :D

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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

aeox wrote:
19 Aug 2020
I think this is a really good topic and thread ( after my brain Lowpassed some portions. )

Here are some discussions in threads from the past

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7515806&p=483787&hi ... ry#p483787

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7513083&p=455602&hi ... ry#p455602

Yea we are influenced by music and sounds we hear of course :)

Since I don't ever usually have to describe it to anyone, I only learn the things that come in that moment where I need to explain it and have to look it up and figure it out. That said, there is all kinds of stuff that I could probably improve on from being taught "music theory". Though, I really enjoy not knowing for some reason. Just making music and venturing.

Even figuring stuff out on accident is music theory :D
oh man, I love this. “figuring stuff out on accident is music theory”. what a great line.

also the “lowpassed” comment. 😆
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

alright, so I shot this follow-up video on Monday, to try and clear up some of the confusion. I was waffling on whether to post it, after seeing this thread nearly devolve, but decided not to let a few unnecessarily negative comments change my approach (if we all did this with our music, we all would've quit by now, I wager! :lol:).

anyhoo, I use the first few minutes to do some clarification, then demonstrate that you don't need to know anything about your note/chord choices in order to come up with something usable.

it's long, but here are some handy-dandy timestamps, for those who don't have the time or inclination to watch the whole thing.
First ~5 min or so: clarifications+introduction
14:10: snark
27:15: end product after playing around for a little while+final thoughts

*for anyone who just goes right to hear the end product, the guitar is in a vastly different tuning than I'm used to, which is why you might notice the tuning/intonation is wonky.

I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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bxbrkrz
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Post 19 Aug 2020

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guitfnky
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Post 19 Aug 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
19 Aug 2020
😳 that was super cool
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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BRIGGS
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Post 19 Aug 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
19 Aug 2020
i loled :lol:
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