ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION about the proposed "REs with known bugs" list

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
DaveyG
Posts: 437
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 22 May 2020

It's a multi-quote MOD FIGHT!
Place your bets ladies and gentlemen.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 7085
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 22 May 2020

DaveyG wrote:
22 May 2020
It's a multi-quote MOD FIGHT!
Place your bets ladies and gentlemen.
:lol:

Who is going to moderate the moderators???

Actually this whole thing is a publicity stunt we're doing to boost the activity in the forum.

WongoTheSane
Moderator
Posts: 1812
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Location: Paris, France

Post 22 May 2020

Wait until we release challism's naked insta vids...

User avatar
challism
Posts: 1832
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 22 May 2020

This thread has taken and wasted more energy in discussion that it really should have, and probably more than the actual list will take. It seems like the vast majority are in favor of the list happening and it more than likely will happen. If it takes more time and energy than we think it will has yet to be determined, but we won't find out until we get started. There really isn't any sense in rehashing the same things over and over, is there? Because I feel that is what we are doing. It feels like all the points in favor and against have already been stated. Can we move on yet, or should we keep playing ping pong?
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
This first post will act as the master list for all the REs with known bugs that have been abandoned by their developers.
As far as the word abandoned being mentioned, is that word some kind of hot button issue or something? The first post said it, yes, and it's quoated above. I'm talking about the bugs being abandoned. It seems like an appropriate use of the word to me. I'm talking about the word in relation to the bugs. I can see how one could read the word abandoned being meant for the RE itself, but that doesn't make much sense to list REs for being abandoned does it? The list is about bugs.... bugs that aren't intended ti be fixed.... bugs that are abandoned. It can be read both ways, I suppose, and might need to be reworded, but if one would think about it a bit and realize the list is about bugs, it seems to become pretty obvious what is meant by the word abandoned relating to the bugs, not the REs themselves. It would be nice if we could move on, though, and stop scrutinizing every word that is typed.

As for the word abandon, lets look it up.

Abandon - verb
1) To withdraw one's support or help from, especially in spite of duty, allegiance, or responsibility; desert.

Seems fitting.


And, yes our publicity stunt scheme has worked perfectly. Look at all this activity! *high fives Joey*
Watch out for the forthcoming scandal vids.
Reason 2.5, Windows 95, 4MB RAM, 133Mhz CPU, integrated audio 14.4k dial-up modem

:rt: :reason: :rt: :reason: :rt: :reason: :rt: :reason: :rt: :reason: :rt:
ReasonTalk Rules and Guidelines

bieh
Posts: 30
Joined: 18 May 2020

Post 23 May 2020

I support the idea of an area to discuss bugs. I imagine it would require a whole separate section with a separate thread for separate bugs. I don't find joeyluck's comment that all software has bugs to be useful, because it can only be true if it includes bugs that aren't noticeable. In my experience, most Reason devices don't have bugs. Reason's some of the nearest-to-bug-free software I've ever used. It's easy to define what a bug is, and it's not necessary to rank severity. Knowing about bugs helps with decisions about purchasing. Discussing them helps developers see what's happening. I agree they should be described, not just listed, and computer specs and software versions should be listed.

User avatar
joeyluck
Moderator
Posts: 7085
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 23 May 2020

challism wrote:
22 May 2020
This thread has taken and wasted more energy in discussion that it really should have, and probably more than the actual list will take. It seems like the vast majority are in favor of the list happening and it more than likely will happen. If it takes more time and energy than we think it will has yet to be determined, but we won't find out until we get started. There really isn't any sense in rehashing the same things over and over, is there? Because I feel that is what we are doing. It feels like all the points in favor and against have already been stated. Can we move on yet, or should we keep playing ping pong?
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
This first post will act as the master list for all the REs with known bugs that have been abandoned by their developers.
As far as the word abandoned being mentioned, is that word some kind of hot button issue or something? The first post said it, yes, and it's quoated above. I'm talking about the bugs being abandoned. It seems like an appropriate use of the word to me. I'm talking about the word in relation to the bugs. I can see how one could read the word abandoned being meant for the RE itself, but that doesn't make much sense to list REs for being abandoned does it? The list is about bugs.... bugs that aren't intended ti be fixed.... bugs that are abandoned. It can be read both ways, I suppose, and might need to be reworded, but if one would think about it a bit and realize the list is about bugs, it seems to become pretty obvious what is meant by the word abandoned relating to the bugs, not the REs themselves. It would be nice if we could move on, though, and stop scrutinizing every word that is typed.

As for the word abandon, lets look it up.

Abandon - verb
1) To withdraw one's support or help from, especially in spite of duty, allegiance, or responsibility; desert.

Seems fitting.


And, yes our publicity stunt scheme has worked perfectly. Look at all this activity! *high fives Joey*
Watch out for the forthcoming scandal vids.
Sorry I didn't realize there was any holdup with efforts while also having the conversation.

And I apologize for my confusion, but to me making a determination whether it's the product or the bug itself to be considered as abandoned sounds pretty similar. So what then is the criteria for declaring this? A particular amount of time passed? Official public word from the developer?

It then sounded like it was going to be about any existing bugs for any RE, making it a more comprehensive, unbiased list. But then it sounds like it's still about what some determine to be abandoned (whether that's the RE or the bug itself).

User avatar
dioxide
Posts: 1196
Joined: 15 Jul 2015

Post 23 May 2020

I'm aware of long-term bugs in devices, often from developers I like and respect. I'd feel a bit bad posting these in the list, but it needs to be done, as consumers come first. I can understand why these bugs can sometimes go unfixed, as for some devs this isn't a significant source of income and I can see there isn't much motivation to spend more time on these devices, when paid work and other things have to take priority.

PH / RS stand out for me as they are actively developing new REs without fixing problems in their previous releases. Maybe there are other third party devs that are doing this also, but I'm not aware of them. For me this is worse than the devs that have abandoned work on REs as they didn't do as well as they thought they might. Both though should be included on the list, so users are able to make an informed choice before they buy a RE.

User avatar
jam-s
Posts: 1043
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 25 May 2020

challism wrote:
22 May 2020
If this project turns out to be a big mess or a mistake, we have that delete button; it can always be taken down. And if it isn't kept up to date, we can (and should) take it down. You're right, it needs to be kept up to date or it isn't fair to the devs. We need to make sure we are fair to the devs.
The thread should include the exact version numbers of the REs that are affected by the bug(s). That way even if it is not kept 100% up to date people can see if a new version of the RE was released and can (ask to) test if it is still affected by the bug, in case the changelog of the RE is not explicit enough to tell from reading it.

Also, I'm all for this thread and the combined community effort of documenting the bugs and creating good instructions on reproducing them (best with test files). In an ideal world, imho, this task would have to be done by the shop owner (aka. The Props/Reasonheads) and the information should be available right on the shop page for each RE. But as they are amongst the worst offenders I don't see this happening any time (soon).
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace.

User avatar
MrFigg
Posts: 4596
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 26 May 2020

Got answer from RS which was basically:

We submit a bug report for all the RS RE bugs our users report but we don’t know when or if they’ll get fixed.

So there you go.
丰2ॐ

User avatar
Boombastix
Posts: 1499
Joined: 18 May 2018
Location: Bay Area, CA

Post 26 May 2020

If the word abandoned is a hot button, why not just state the date of the last update and date when the bug was first reported. Then I as user can make my own determination.

Personally if a bug hasn't been fixed in 3mo I'll be annoyed, 6mo I'll be frustrated, 9mo I'll consider it trash and probably abandoned.
10% off at Waves with link: https://www.waves.com/r/6gh2b0
Disclaimer - I get 10% as well.

User avatar
orthodox
Posts: 1180
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 26 May 2020

If you ever make the list, please specify the dates in ISO 8601.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

two shoes
Posts: 253
Joined: 13 Jul 2018

Post 29 May 2020

they do not fix bugs period (or even bothering to notify the relevant 3rd party developer) unless they destabilize the entire program. they've known since shortly after it was released that 4dyne has a critical bug that makes it completely unusable for it's primary/advertised purpose at sample rates above 48k. a bug that should be extremely simple to fix for a single person and makes the RE utterly worthless unless you're working at 48k or redbook. not only were they too lazy to fix it for over two years, they actually had the audacity to include it in one of the 3rd gen bundles, advertising it as one of the cream of the crop REs in a software package they were selling for $300 a pop, knowing full well that it was entirely broken and the people buying it would never be able to use it because they had zero intention of every fixing it. that's called fraud and it's very consistent with their fundamental dishonesty across every facet of their business. RS really are the most despicable software company i've ever encountered. if you get anything but blinding stupidity, laziness, and arrogance in response to reporting a bug you've hit the jackpot. this will probably never change and definitely won't until the fanboy crowd around here stops paying through the nose to get bent over by them over and over again.

ab459
Posts: 204
Joined: 28 Dec 2018
Location: Minsk Belarus

Post 31 May 2020

Had time today to reproduce both described bugs (for Layers and RDK), well interestingly. (Frankly, i first time saw now how Reason device cause error heh).

About Layers, initially i been guess that the problem lay in certain incoming cv\gate range, what Layers do not like, that can reproduce if supply the sine lfo form (which cover full range). It's rightly via use the Shape default sine condition, or for example Subtractor triangle lfo. In both cases we get error.
But if we load other wave in Shape (more thin for example), we not get error.
But then i tried Arcus user knobs output - for manually scan whole range (again - for gate and cv simultaneously) with CVA7 analyzer, but nope - Layers sounds ok, no error here. Oddly enough.

About RDK (separate overhead and room outputs stop working after enable\disable any of solo button at front panel) reproduce too, thru use in reason rack in Studio One.

Would be interesting to know about any other catches regarding native devices, if anyone found.

User avatar
MrFigg
Posts: 4596
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 31 May 2020

ab459 wrote:
31 May 2020
Had time today to reproduce both described bugs (for Layers and RDK), well interestingly. (Frankly, i first time saw now how Reason device cause error heh).

About Layers, initially i been guess that the problem lay in certain incoming cv\gate range, what Layers do not like, that can reproduce if supply the sine lfo form (which cover full range). It's rightly via use the Shape default sine condition, or for example Subtractor triangle lfo. In both cases we get error.
But if we load other wave in Shape (more thin for example), we not get error.
But then i tried Arcus user knobs output - for manually scan whole range (again - for gate and cv simultaneously) with CVA7 analyzer, but nope - Layers sounds ok, no error here. Oddly enough.

About RDK (separate overhead and room outputs stop working after enable\disable any of solo button at front panel) reproduce too, thru use in reason rack in Studio One.

Would be interesting to know about any other catches regarding native devices, if anyone found.
There’s another bug in Layers which I found ages ago which has something to do with the timing in the built in sequencer. Can’t really remember what it was but it caused Reason to shut down completely. Apparently something to do with the Gorilla Engine (U-Jam) but due to the fault only occurring under EXTREME conditions Props deemed it low priority. I should have written down what I did so I could remember...but I didn’t because at the time I figured they’d never fix it anyway. Still do.
丰2ॐ

ab459
Posts: 204
Joined: 28 Dec 2018
Location: Minsk Belarus

Post 31 May 2020

@MrFigg Hm thanks for info. Will check.

User avatar
MrFigg
Posts: 4596
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 31 May 2020

ab459 wrote:
31 May 2020
@MrFigg Hm thanks for info. Will check.
It’s pretty hard to do. I tortured the life out of it.
丰2ॐ

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: Bes, Biolumin3sc3nt, deeplink, fieldframe and 2 guests