Reverb question

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Jagwah
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Post 22 May 2020

I've often wondered since way back, why reverb devices typically have their wet / dry parameter maxed out to full wet on their initialized patches? (I don't have many but those I do have the same initialized setting, including RS reverbs).

So you add the device and immediately you have reverb overkill and need to dial it back. I have become used to leaving it on full wet, adjusting the reverb settings, then dialing the dry / wet back to zero, then slowly introduce it until it suits, just a weird and uneducated method I have been using that works OK for me. I get that reverb is quite a complex effect and I don't understand much of it at all at this point except for what it fundamentally is, just always been curious about this so if anyone knows please share your thoughts, cheers!

fev
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Post 22 May 2020

Jagwah wrote:
22 May 2020
I've often wondered since way back, why reverb devices typically have their wet / dry parameter maxed out to full wet on their initialized patches?
I think it's because reverbs are most commonly used as send fx rather than inserts.

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Jagwah
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Post 22 May 2020

fev wrote:
22 May 2020
Jagwah wrote:
22 May 2020
I've often wondered since way back, why reverb devices typically have their wet / dry parameter maxed out to full wet on their initialized patches?
I think it's because reverbs are most commonly used as send fx rather than inserts.
Yes I think you're on the money there, thanks for commenting.

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demt
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Post 22 May 2020

bump
currently akai touch mpc. reasonsuite11, android kaosilater .behringer ddm4000 dj mixer
hear scince reason 2.5

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Jagwah
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Post 22 May 2020

demt wrote:
22 May 2020
bump
Thanks man I already got the answer I needed, I use reverbs as insert effects and that's not a good habit, it's also why the wet knobs set to full didn't make sense to me :)

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MrFigg
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Post 22 May 2020

Jagwah wrote:
22 May 2020
demt wrote:
22 May 2020
bump
Thanks man I already got the answer I needed, I use reverbs as insert effects and that's not a good habit, it's also why the wet knobs set to full didn't make sense to me :)
Isn’t it a good habit? I always do that too. Mainly on guitars though. Still Got the amp/pedals mindset.
Incidentally, thanks for asking the question. I always wondered too.
丰2ॐ

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Jagwah
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Post 22 May 2020

MrFigg wrote:
22 May 2020
Jagwah wrote:
22 May 2020


Thanks man I already got the answer I needed, I use reverbs as insert effects and that's not a good habit, it's also why the wet knobs set to full didn't make sense to me :)
Isn’t it a good habit? I always do that too. Mainly on guitars though. Still Got the amp/pedals mindset.
Incidentally, thanks for asking the question. I always wondered too.
As far as I know using reverbs as send effects is the correct way to use them. This also allows you to send all your instruments to the same reverb algorithm (same device same settings) which as far as I know is also the correct usage.

Hopefully someone can clarify this as I am not certain about it in any sense of the word...

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Benedict
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Post 22 May 2020

Reverbs are mostly used in traditional mixing on a Send so defaulting to 100% Wet makes perfect sense there.

Creating reverbs in the 100% Wet and then mixing is not a bad thing at all and I often do it as you can really hear the tone & shape space without the Dry signal on top. So long as they mix it is a good plan.

You are right that one Reverb on a Send so you can put everything in the mix into one space is a wise starting point. It is simpler and less CPUsage too.

Past that you may indeed put each instrument into its own reverb space too - but I still recommend using that send bus reverb too or you can end up with different instruments or parts of the mix not gelling together.

:-)

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MrFigg
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Post 22 May 2020

Hmmm. I guess it’s maybe because I use so many different types of reverb within songs. Shimmer on piano. Spring on guitar etc.
Even if I use the same reverb I generally want different settings for different instruments.
I guess that’s why I add them on an individual basis.
丰2ॐ

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Jagwah
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Post 22 May 2020

Thanks guys, I guess there are text book procedures on the one hand, then the aspect of one's creativity on the other. If it sounds good do it!

Benedict wrote:
22 May 2020
Reverbs are mostly used in traditional mixing on a Send so defaulting to 100% Wet makes perfect sense there.

Creating reverbs in the 100% Wet and then mixing is not a bad thing at all and I often do it as you can really hear the tone & shape space without the Dry signal on top. So long as they mix it is a good plan.

You are right that one Reverb on a Send so you can put everything in the mix into one space is a wise starting point. It is simpler and less CPUsage too.

Past that you may indeed put each instrument into its own reverb space too - but I still recommend using that send bus reverb too or you can end up with different instruments or parts of the mix not gelling together.

:-)
MrFigg wrote:
22 May 2020
Hmmm. I guess it’s maybe because I use so many different types of reverb within songs. Shimmer on piano. Spring on guitar etc.
Even if I use the same reverb I generally want different settings for different instruments.
I guess that’s why I add them on an individual basis.

fev
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Joined: 09 May 2020

Post 23 May 2020

Jagwah wrote:
22 May 2020
MrFigg wrote:
22 May 2020


Isn’t it a good habit? I always do that too. Mainly on guitars though. Still Got the amp/pedals mindset.
As far as I know using reverbs as send effects is the correct way to use them.
I don't think it's necessarily bad or incorrect to have insert reverb, just a different way of using them.

If you're sculpting an individual sound then an insert makes perfect sense.

But if you are looking for a little mix glue or trying to put different sounds within a shared space then a send will be far more efficient.

Perhaps if you wanted every sound to have it's own very distinct space then you might not need send fx in your mix at all?

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selig
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Post 23 May 2020

IIRC, during some patch design or best testing this issue was discussed.
It was decided to be better to default to 100% wet instead of 50/50 because the "worst case" with inserts is you hear it 100% right away and make the adjustment - but worst case with send/return is you may not notice it right away and end up adding overall level when adding a send (or add comb filtering if using a Mix Channel as a return). Plus, if not defaulting to 100%, what value is best? 50/50 is hardly ever "right" in my experience so should it be 25/75, or 33/67, or what? Leaving me to conclude that a 100% wet default is most useful in most cases, and the easiest to catch in cases where it's not what you want (when using as inserts or in the rack).
And so the lesser of the two evils is to default to 100% wet.
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Jagwah
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Post 23 May 2020

fev wrote:
23 May 2020
Jagwah wrote:
22 May 2020


As far as I know using reverbs as send effects is the correct way to use them.
I don't think it's necessarily bad or incorrect to have insert reverb, just a different way of using them.

If you're sculpting an individual sound then an insert makes perfect sense.

But if you are looking for a little mix glue or trying to put different sounds within a shared space then a send will be far more efficient.

Perhaps if you wanted every sound to have it's own very distinct space then you might not need send fx in your mix at all?
Yeah I like to try and add the instruments to the same space in order to create the glue effect for the overall mix, but obviously it's also useful to create different individual spaces when needed.

You are right in that it's not necessarily bad, otherwise that wet knob would be permanently fused to its max position.

Each to their own, but from this point I will use them as sends much more often as it makes sense for the glue effect I'm usually going for.

:)

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joeyluck
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Post 23 May 2020

On this topic, I don't mind the default set to 100% as I mostly use reverbs as sends, but it's inconvenient when a device's wet/dry setting is tied to each patch, changing with each patch change.

I wish Reason had a lock setting feature, in which any individual parameter on any device could be locked.

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selig
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Post 23 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
23 May 2020
On this topic, I don't mind the default set to 100% as I mostly use reverbs as sends, but it's inconvenient when a device's wet/dry setting is tied to each patch, changing with each patch change.

I wish Reason had a lock setting feature, in which any individual parameter on any device could be locked.
But if not 100% wet, what setting would work for you in every case when using reverb as an insert? Meaning, you'll have to adjust it anyway, right? So IMO it doesn't matter where it starts if 99% of the time you'll adjust it when used as an insert anyway.

It would ideally be more "intelligent" if Reason could simply recognize it used as an insert, and use your own pre-defined dry/wet amount...

Locking already works for the dry/wet control in many FX Reason, like the RV2000 and The Echo - but not all devices for some reason! But it would be interesting to be able to apply it to ANY controls for sure.
Selig Audio, LLC

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Heigen5
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Post 23 May 2020

Just to add that even in this case one could make a Combi to have a certain dry/wet value for the reverbs. :)

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joeyluck
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Post 23 May 2020

selig wrote:
23 May 2020
joeyluck wrote:
23 May 2020
On this topic, I don't mind the default set to 100% as I mostly use reverbs as sends, but it's inconvenient when a device's wet/dry setting is tied to each patch, changing with each patch change.

I wish Reason had a lock setting feature, in which any individual parameter on any device could be locked.
But if not 100% wet, what setting would work for you in every case when using reverb as an insert? Meaning, you'll have to adjust it anyway, right? So IMO it doesn't matter where it starts if 99% of the time you'll adjust it when used as an insert anyway.

It would ideally be more "intelligent" if Reason could simply recognize it used as an insert, and use your own pre-defined dry/wet amount...

Locking already works for the dry/wet control in many FX Reason, like the RV2000 and The Echo - but not all devices for some reason! But it would be interesting to be able to apply it to ANY controls for sure.
Well I mostly use reverb as a send, so having it stay at 100% is preferable. But even as an insert, I prefer to have it stay where I set it, then I can fine tune it if needed. In both cases, there's some reverb plugins that have the wet mix jump around from 30% to 100% when changing patches. It just shouldn't be a parameter tied to patches.

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TheDragonborg
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Post 23 May 2020

Most of the time I use reverb effects on a send... unless it's a specialty reverb type like shimmer...

But the main reason reverbs were always used on sends back in the day was before DAWs existed. A studio might only have one or two reverb FX units and to get the most out of them they would be used on sends on the mixer.

Also using reverb on sends like this helps blend the different tracks much better...

WarStar
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Post 25 May 2020

One thing that might happen too when using various verbs as inserts instead of sends is thAt different reverbs can interfere with each other. I ran into this issue when I first started out.. sometimes when using different Reverbs it can turn a wider reverb feel to a more narrow one which is something I don't want.. Or you can get this weird muddy sound where the two reverbs intersect.. just my experience.

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Benedict
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Post 25 May 2020

WarStar wrote:
25 May 2020
One thing that might happen too when using various verbs as inserts instead of sends is thAt different reverbs can interfere with each other. I ran into this issue when I first started out.. sometimes when using different Reverbs it can turn a wider reverb feel to a more narrow one which is something I don't want.. Or you can get this weird muddy sound where the two reverbs intersect.. just my experience.
Yes, just as when you blend any two sounds, sometimes they sit nicely together sometimes they act like children. When you use reverb as an Insert, you make it part of the Instrument so it now behaves a bit differently from a Send reverb.

A different reverb on every instrument can definitely have unintended consequences. But that is also the job of a Mix Engineer (and to some extent the composer too as we all know flutes don't win against a Brass Section) to understand the nature of their instruments and how they combine.

:-)

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