ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION about the proposed "REs with known bugs" list

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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

EDIT:

This thread has been changed from the original intent. Let's use this thread to hammer out the process of how we think the process should work. When we are happy with our process, we can lock this thread and begin the new, official thread.

Thank you

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ORIGINAL THREAD INTENT BELOW




ROUGH DRAFT.......... This list is going to take some time to put together.... and if you read the comments, we still have a few things to iron out....... so........... this list is coming soon

This first post will act as the master list for all the REs with known bugs that have been abandoned by their developers. Please feel free to discuss and report any buggy REs in comments below. I sort of see this first post ast he master list and the following posts as the backup evidence to support the bug claims that are made. So try to include the following information, if you can: Also PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE LATEST VERSION OF THE RE INSTALLED!! It very well could have already been fixed in an update you may have missed.

* RE name and developer
* describing the problem and how to reproduce it
* name your version of Reason and your operating system
* attach a song file (or pictures) which show an example (so we can reproduce it)
* did you contact the developer, if so, how did they reply?

Please remember to keep comments civil and respectful to the developers. This isn't meant to be a thread for attacks, rather, it's a thread to be used as a helpful resource for potential RE buyers.

REs with Bugs:
will go here
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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
20 May 2020
I think it would better to make a separate list of Reason DAW and included device bugs in the General Reason forum, since this is the RE forum.
Drum Sequencer, RDK and Layers are all REs with bugs. Or is that not how you meant?
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Yonatan
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Post 20 May 2020

By knowing of a bug in a RE, it makes it fair for possible buyers to be able to decide if the bug is important enough for their own works or not.

And yes, probably good with a separate thread dedicated for Reason DAW and Rack Plugin, including the stock devices.

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diminished
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Post 20 May 2020

I'd love to just copy&paste my conversation with RS about the Reason Drum Kit bug over the months (parts of the sound disappearing; deleting the device & undo deletion will bring those parts back).
But to be honest, I'm just so fed up.
Loque has a story or two to tell as well I believe.

I've come to the conclusion that there is only one solution as to why they don't fix bugs: they don't want to.
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

diminished wrote:
20 May 2020
I'd love to just copy&paste my conversation with RS about the Reason Drum Kit bug over the months (parts of the sound disappearing; deleting the device & undo deletion will bring those parts back).
But to be honest, I'm just so fed up.
Loque has a story or two to tell as well I believe.

I've come to the conclusion that there is only one solution as to why they don't fix bugs: they don't want to.
I’ve had “thanks but it’s not significant enough to waste resources on fixing” and “thanks. We’ve reported it. Maybe it’ll get fixed one day” amongst other responses.
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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

diminished wrote:
20 May 2020
I'd love to just copy&paste my conversation with RS about the Reason Drum Kit bug over the months (parts of the sound disappearing; deleting the device & undo deletion will bring those parts back).
But to be honest, I'm just so fed up.
Loque has a story or two to tell as well I believe.

I've come to the conclusion that there is only one solution as to why they don't fix bugs: they don't want to.
I think that is one reason why they put that privacy disclaimer in their email signature.
MrFigg wrote:
20 May 2020
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
@Mr. Figg I don't know. I'm certainly not the boss around here, just a grunt worker bee.

I think it would more useful to get all the bug descriptions in the same topic (in this thread), so they are easy to read thru. That's how I see a mater list working.

So I see this thread as the place to report the bugs, with the fist post being continually updated to add new submissions and compile the master list. The following posts should support the claims made in the first post.

That's how I envision it working. Thoughts?
Absolutely. Did you see my first question to you? 2nd post in this thread :):):). Let me know. I’m at work just now and skiving off to write this. Haha.

I'll go ahead and track those down and post them here, then update the master list at the top.

It seems like we should post proof of work/document the bugs instead of just listing the bugs without any backing. Kind of like a court.... we have to present our case first. There are many REs with well known and documented bugs, but just listing those devices isn't going to help a newbie know what those bugs are. So I think we should at least describe the bugs here, as we are listing them.

This is what I'm thinking a report should look like....

Device: Reason Studios/Propellerhead - Layers
Discussion thread: viewtopic.php?p=501413#p501413
Bug description: connect the first blue out from Shape to the Gate on Layers and then the first green output from Shape to the cv on Layers. Devices stop working.
Version of Reason: unknown
Operating systme: unknown
Reported to dev? No
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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

Looks good. In the case of the Layers bug it’s reported. They’ve noted it and passed it on.
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diminished
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Post 20 May 2020

Same with the RDK bug. Months ago.

Back on topic,
Device: Reason Studios/Propellerhead - Layers
Discussion thread: viewtopic.php?p=501413#p501413
Bug description: connect the first blue out from Shape to the Gate on Layers and then the first green output from Shape to the cv on Layers. Devices stop working.
Version of Reason: unknown
Operating systme: unknown
Reported to dev? No
I think this is a good system.
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joeyluck
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
20 May 2020
REs with Bugs:
Propellerhead/Reason Studios - Layers
Propellerhead/Reason Studios - RDK (Reason Drum Kits)
Propellerhead/Reason Studios - Drum Sequencer
I'm not sure I see the purpose of such a list. Also, I don't see the benefit if you don't have the details of what the bug is, the exact steps of how to reproduce it, the OS, the version of Reason, etc.

But mostly, if the list was just "names of software that have bugs" (whether it's REs, VSTs, DAWs, video games, etc.) you could just be done with it by answering with "everything." There is no such thing as bug free software. That's why I don't see the purpose of such a list.

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
20 May 2020
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
REs with Bugs:
Propellerhead/Reason Studios - Layers
Propellerhead/Reason Studios - RDK (Reason Drum Kits)
Propellerhead/Reason Studios - Drum Sequencer
Also, I don't see the benefit if you don't have the details of what the bug is, the exact steps of how to reproduce it, the OS, the version of Reason, etc.
But if you look at the format Challism suggested then all of those details are covered.
Details for the three REs mentioned above are forthcoming.
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joeyluck
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Post 20 May 2020

MrFigg wrote:
20 May 2020
joeyluck wrote:
20 May 2020


Also, I don't see the benefit if you don't have the details of what the bug is, the exact steps of how to reproduce it, the OS, the version of Reason, etc.
But if you look at the format Challism suggested then all of those details are covered.
Details for the three REs mentioned above are forthcoming.
Not the way to do it. Off to a very bad start then. I don't see how you all can manage a list for every product if you've already defined three on the list without these details. And every piece of software has bugs. "Bug free" is a myth.

ab459
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Post 20 May 2020

MrFigg wrote:
20 May 2020
challism wrote:
20 May 2020
I think it would better to make a separate list of Reason DAW and included device bugs in the General Reason forum, since this is the RE forum.
Drum Sequencer, RDK and Layers are all REs with bugs. Or is that not how you meant?
Sorry, i had been not follow, what bug in Drum Sequencer ?
(Would be useful to add in first post as well short description of bug along specified RE)

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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

@Joey and ab459

I intend on adding details to the first post, yes. I had to do deal with life this evening, so I didn't have time to expand on anything, but a few people, myself included, seemed eager to get started, so I did. I would ask for some patience for this list to come together. It's not going to happen overnight and it will be edited. It's a rough draft at the moment. IF you read the posts carefully, you will see all your concerns have been answered already.

I know Drum Sequencer is buggy, I've had issues with it myself, and the other two mentioned were already described.

Posting bugs should have the format I already laid out.

As for this list being useless, I guess we all have our opinions on that. I see validity in it, as do others. I think it's a good idea to have such a list for the more severe bugs. i agree, nothing is going to be 100% bug free, but if there is a serious bug that affects functionality and a developer doesn't do a thing to try to fix it, consumers should be made aware of it. Hopefully people aren't going to be too knit-picky when it comes to reporting a very minor bug. And Developers should always be given the benefit of the doubt and contacted first, to be given the chance to address the issue. If a Dev doesn't intend on fixing a severe bug such as dropped notes, audio problems or completely failing to function, I think it deserves a mention on this list (and a fix by the dev).
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ab459
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Post 20 May 2020

@challism Ok i understand, so, about bugs in Drum Sequencer, maybe link to post where it described then by some user. (Just i liked this RE, so, interesting to know)

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joeyluck
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Post 20 May 2020

Yeah I get the point, but who is classifying what "severe" is? I don't think you all are giving this as much thought as it needs.

Whoever the OP is of such a list takes on a great deal of responsibility, because you have to act as the lead on it. It's on the OP then to have all the fine details, be able to reproduce the bug, and know without a doubt the bug exists and what is the true cause of the bug. Is it actually the fault of the RE you list? Or is something else the culprit?

And then you also be on top of it 24/7 to be fair to the devs and the consumer. So many threads fall out of date in this forum and this cannot be one of them. Absolutely not. It wouldn't be fair for any dev to have products included based on hearsay or the report from one user with no reproductions. And then other devs who don't have any bugs listed because nobody has reported them. "Wow, Blamsoft REs have all these bugs, but REs by DopeyDev don't have any on the list...what a great dev Mr. Dopey must be..."

You need to not only be thinking of how you list them, but how you verify them before you list them. You have to have a discussion on what "severe" is and define it in the first post. In other words, I think your conversations should continue about what this list is and its definitions before you even begin listing.

If you want my honest opinion, I see such a thread being out of date very quickly because nobody will be able to manage it properly and it will be a very poor representation of what bugs exist.

If y'all were devs, and your thread/list was a RE, it would be considered the buggiest. Why did you release it so soon? Why is it still not fixed? :P lol

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guitfnky
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Post 20 May 2020

joeyluck wrote:
20 May 2020
Whoever the OP is of such a list takes on a great deal of responsibility, because you have to act as the lead on it. It's on the OP then to have all the fine details, be able to reproduce the bug, and know without a doubt the bug exists and what is the true cause of the bug. Is it actually the fault of the RE you list? Or is something else the culprit?
I think a thread like this is a good idea, but my personal opinion is that the Reasontalk mod team should be responsible for such a thread (this one is already off the rails, just trying to come up with some kind of methodology to use). it should also be pinned to the top of the list for easy access.

the mods should maintain the initial post, and add anything new. I don’t think they should be in the business of ranking severity—just a list that explains the bugs concisely, once confirmed (e.g. someone else has looked at it and verified it’s an issue). discussion below can be had about whether or not it’s really a bug, and the list would be updated accordingly. for example, yesterday someone posted a potential bug with the detection in pitch edit mode, which actually seemed to be expected behavior.

there are tons of other software forums that do this, and it’s super helpful—especially for users who are new, and not aware of many of the bugs yet, or for those who don’t frequent the forums as often as many of us.

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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

ha ha, yes we released a beta with bugs... you make some good points, Joey, and you bring up some things to consider.

You said "So many threads fall out of date in this forum" and that is true. We already have many, many threads with mentions of bugs in them, don't we? And many of them are out of date. I agree with you. This thread is a way to bring them all together and make it easier to keep up to date. Because the problem of outdated information you mention already exists on this forum. I'm sure I can dig up some bug reports that have been fixed, yet the threads haven't been updated. It can be a team effort, too. If an update is released, I'm sure somebody will post about it (Devs could also post and mention they have fixed it). This doesn't just fall on my shoulders. Look at how fast a new RE is mentioned on this forum, or how fast a new FREE RE is posted about in the FREE RE's thread. I manage that thread, but I'm never the first one to see a new free RE, I see it posted about, then I update the thread. So I don't think this is going to be a 24/7 job to keep it updated.

I don't recall any of the previous posts with bug reports getting this kind of heat, or the OPs having such a heavy responsibility to their posts. How is this master compilation list so much different than an entire forum peppered with bug reports? At least a master list would be easier to peruse and keep updated than random posts all over the forum.

There needs to be a proper vetting/confirmation process for the bugs, I completely agree with that.
And we need to define what severe is. These things can be done.

I would say there are certain REs that have a general consensus to have bugs. McDSP EQ, I'm looking at you. REs like that could go on the list, couldn't they? And I'm pretty sure McDSP knows about it, so it should definitely be listed.

Other criteria could be:

Was the Dev contacted? The Dev needs to be given the benefit of the doubt and contacted first, given the chance to address the issue. RE with bugs shouldn't go on a list if the Dev doesn't know about the bugs.

How did the Dev reply? Did they acknowledge/confirm the bug? Are they going to fix it? If they said they will fix it, all this should be documented.

I don't think this is as bad an idea as you think it is. And I will admit there are a few holes in this rough draft. Does it help to think of this list as being in alpha and will hopefully move into beta soon?
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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

ab459 wrote:
20 May 2020
@challism Ok i understand, so, about bugs in Drum Sequencer, maybe link to post where it described then by some user. (Just i liked this RE, so, interesting to know)
Drum Sequencer doesn't keep correct time when your song is in 3/4 time or some other odd signatures. It will skip some notes and beats when it loops back to the start. It does great in 4/4. That's the bug I discovered and was confirmed by another user. I didn't report it to RS because they don't fix their REs and all my past reports to them were a complete waste of time. I know other users have contacted RS with bugs about this RE. Try the search function. ha ha <--Now, see, here is a perfect example of why we need this thread to bring all these reports under one roof.

Editorial: Pretty much all my stuff is in 4/4. When I try other signatures, I always end up changing my songs back to 4/4, so this bug doesn't really bother me. I like Drum Sequencer.
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ab459
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
20 May 2020
ab459 wrote:
20 May 2020
@challism Ok i understand, so, about bugs in Drum Sequencer, maybe link to post where it described then by some user. (Just i liked this RE, so, interesting to know)
Drum Sequencer doesn't keep correct time when your song is in 3/4 time or some other odd signatures. It will skip some notes and beats when it loops back to the start. It does great in 4/4. That's the bug I discovered and was confirmed by another user. I didn't report it to RS because they don't fix their REs and all my past reports to them were a complete waste of time. I know other users have contacted RS with bugs about this RE.

Pretty much all my stuff is in 4/4. When I try other signatures, I always end up changing my songs back to 4/4, so this bug doesn't really bother me. I like Drum Sequencer.
Hmm ok thanks, good to know, will try. (If i will able to reproduce this i'll send message to support too).

Else thing: Complex-1 - filter self oscillation does not works from LP output (from HP works properly). I already sent bugreport, and got reply, but situation still unclear and ticket open (and i will not explain the details of the dialogue in connection with the rules, of course). It just seems like it really doesn't work. Frankly i was surprized that got no any reaction in Complex-1 thread, do really nobody use it ?
viewtopic.php?p=500048#p500048
Oh yes, Win10, R11 latest, Complex-1 latest (1.0.5)

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joeyluck
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Post 20 May 2020

I'm still confused.

Every piece of software has bugs.

I think your intentions for the list are coming from the wrong place. It's expressed in the other thread that you are upset with particular devs and you want to call out those devs. And now this list seems it would serve that purpose. Bug reports exist in other forums as a way to report them to the developers, not to call them out.

And now the list is defining it as those that are "abandoned"? Which is a term people around here throw around and use incorrectly.

I still disagree. This thread would need much more attention than you think. This can't be like the free RE thread where it doesn't get updated for a week or weeks. Someone needs to be on top of it daily.

You'll end up singling out devs who have bugs reported and not those who have bugs that aren't reported. You might as well start with listing every piece of software (or in this case, every RE) and then start adding the bugs next to them. If you can't find them—keep looking.

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Enlightenspeed
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Post 20 May 2020

Something to add, if I may. Bugs need to be reproducible and verifiable by at least two users, other than the original reporter, and OS/System Spec needs to be reported.

After this verification stage is really the point when you want to be contacting the developer.

FWIW, I fully support this idea, although it could use a bit of work in order to be succesful.

Cheers,
Brian

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

Hey Joey. Seems like the majority commenting here and elsewhere think this thread is a good idea. I don’t really understand why you’re trying to convince people not to do it. I mean if you’re not into it then just don’t read the thread. Maybe just leave the folk who want it have it.
Alternatively just lock it down. Who cares. I mean why not. Is that what you want to do?
We can always just start a new thread Relating to each bug we find and discuss them individually. And I guess we could also write to Reason Studios again and report the bugs in their REs and who knows maybe they’ll be fixed one day if we place our trust in them. Whatcha think?
Last edited by MrFigg on 20 May 2020, edited 1 time in total.
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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

Enlightenspeed wrote:
20 May 2020
Something to add, if I may. Bugs need to be reproducible and verifiable by at least two users, other than the original reporter, and OS/System Spec needs to be reported.

After this verification stage is really the point when you want to be contacting the developer.

FWIW, I fully support this idea, although it could use a bit of work in order to be succesful.

Cheers,
Brian
Good stuff Brian. Main issue I, and a number of others, have is with RS acknowledging, reproducing and then confirming bugs in their own REs and then seemingly nothing gets done about them. Tack o hej as they say in Sweden.
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orthodox
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Post 20 May 2020

All that sounds good, reprodicible, two witnesses and so on. But who will judge whether something is really a bug or it is just the way a device works, which someone does not like?
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

orthodox wrote:
20 May 2020
All that sounds good, reprodicible, two witnesses and so on. But who will judge whether something is really a bug or it is just the way a device works, which someone does not like?
I guess if it causes an error message and stops Reason from working it’s a bug. Maybe go out from there?
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