Another Layers bug

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MrFigg
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Post 19 May 2020

Well here's another bug in a Reason Studios RE which I'm guessing is unlikely ever to be fixed. I'm doing this with Shape. I'm pretty sure there'll be other devices which create the same behaviour.
Load up Layers then connect the first blue out from Shape to the Gate on Layers and then the first green output from Shape to the cv on Layers. Devices stop working.
I'm more than certain it has nothing to do with Shape as I've tried the same thing with countless other instruments and they all work fine.
I've written to Propellerheads. That said however, I reported a different Layers Bug which causes the device to crash over a year ago and nothing ever came of it. So now you know :)
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challism
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Post 19 May 2020

It's a damn shame that RS won't fix bugs in their devices. It's absolutely disgraceful! I've reported numerous bugs to them over the years, they have confirmed the bugs and gave me some nice sounding words in an email response, but haven't done anything to fix them. I'm very disappointed the way they treat their devices as abandonware. And thus the way they treat their customers. Not fixing known issues in a device is slap in the face to the customer. They are THE developer behind this wonderful DAW, but they are one of the worst for fixing bugs in their own REs (and even some legacy devices.... Scream still has aliasing issues, right?). That just isn't right.

I'd like to give a shout out to the great developers who regularly update and fix bugs in their devices - that is a pretty long list; thank you for continuing to support your products! RS should follow the examples given by these 3rd party developers. It's a strange situation that RS isn't the company setting the example here.

I think we need to compile a list of REs with known bugs and pin it to the top of the RE forum. If developers aren't going to stand behind their products, customers need to be warned and developers need to be publicly shamed. As you can tell, I feel strongly about this and it really pisses me off.
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Boombastix
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Post 19 May 2020

challism wrote:
19 May 2020
I think we need to compile a list of REs with known bugs and pin it to the top of the RE forum. If developers aren't going to stand behind their products, customers need to be warned and developers need to be publicly shamed. As you can tell, I feel strongly about this and it really pisses me off.
Shall we do a list of Reason versions too, starting with Reason 10.4?
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MannequinRaces
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Post 19 May 2020

I don’t think publicly shaming the company we mostly love but listing all of the bugs is beneficial. If you find a bug report it by all means and the more people that do, probably the better. Most RE developers have a very small number of software to maintain and fix, Reason Studios... not so much. Like most companies that are trying to turn a profit resources have to be allocated to align with business goal. Buggy software sucks, especially when it’s from a product we all use but a little understanding would go a long ways here.

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challism
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Post 19 May 2020

MannequinRaces wrote:
19 May 2020
I don’t think publicly shaming the company we mostly love but listing all of the bugs is beneficial. If you find a bug report it by all means and the more people that do, probably the better. Most RE developers have a very small number of software to maintain and fix, Reason Studios... not so much. Like most companies that are trying to turn a profit resources have to be allocated to align with business goal. Buggy software sucks, especially when it’s from a product we all use but a little understanding would go a long ways here.
Publicly shaming, to me, would just be us having a list which names developers and their buggy software which hasn't been fixed/has been abandoned (same thing). To me, if I were a developer, and my name was on such a list, I would be ashamed and I would work to fix the bug and get my name cleared. That is what I mean by shaming. And I think it is productive and can get results. More so than a private email.

I'm not just talking about RS here. I'm talking about McDSP, Softube.... all the devs who refuse to fix their crap.

This is also a service to potential buyers. For example, if I had known the McDSP EQs were so buggy, I never would have bought them.
Boombastix wrote:
19 May 2020
challism wrote:
19 May 2020
I think we need to compile a list of REs with known bugs and pin it to the top of the RE forum. If developers aren't going to stand behind their products, customers need to be warned and developers need to be publicly shamed. As you can tell, I feel strongly about this and it really pisses me off.
Shall we do a list of Reason versions too, starting with Reason 10.4?
If there are bugs they know about, but haven't fixed, I'd say it should be included in such a list, yes.
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MannequinRaces
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Post 19 May 2020

challism wrote:
19 May 2020
MannequinRaces wrote:
19 May 2020
I don’t think publicly shaming the company we mostly love but listing all of the bugs is beneficial. If you find a bug report it by all means and the more people that do, probably the better. Most RE developers have a very small number of software to maintain and fix, Reason Studios... not so much. Like most companies that are trying to turn a profit resources have to be allocated to align with business goal. Buggy software sucks, especially when it’s from a product we all use but a little understanding would go a long ways here.
Publicly shaming, to me, would just be us having a list which names developers and their buggy software which hasn't been fixed/has been abandoned (same thing). To me, if I were a developer, and my name was on such a list, I would be ashamed and I would work to fix the bug and get my name cleared. That is what I mean by shaming. And I think it is productive and can get results. More so than a private email.

I'm not just talking about RS here. I'm talking about McDSP, Softube.... all the devs who refuse to fix their crap.

This is also a service to potential buyers. For example, if I had known the McDSP EQs were so buggy, I never would have bought them.
Boombastix wrote:
19 May 2020


Shall we do a list of Reason versions too, starting with Reason 10.4?
If there are bugs they know about, but haven't fixed, I'd say it should be included in such a list, yes.
This sounds like something that would be on the KVR forums and quite frankly I think ReasonTalk is better than that. Imagine a potential Reason user comes to ReasonTalk, sees a post pinned on top about bugs that are in the program they want to buy... why on Earth would you want to potentially turn away new users that could bring in more revenue to hopefully equal more updates to the program we like using? I get that you're not happy about bugs, I get it, I don't like them in software either and there are some in Reason I hate that I doubt will get fixed... I just think this is the wrong approach. This is some scarlet letter bullshit.

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

I myself completely understand that Reason has bugs and Propellerheads do make efforts to fix those bugs (well some of them anyway). I’m more concerned about the fact that they don’t seem to do anything about the bugs in their REs. I don’t think compiling a list of bugs would really make any difference in the same way that compiling lists of features people want in Reason seems not to make any difference. Continue writing to them when we find bugs. Sure. I’ve done it. You’ve maybe done it too. Unfortunately more often than not you get a confirmation and a thanks and then case closed and that’s it.
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Yonatan
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Post 20 May 2020

A list of known bugs on REs in the RE part of ReasonTalk, would indeed be very helpful to new users as well as more seasoned users who dont scroll endlessly on this forum where none can delete a post. Everyone can decide if the bug are bad enough or dont affect their usage.
We see these devices going on sale while some developers does not fix the bugs.
I mean, it is one thing if a dev totally abandoned their RE, but even then users should be allowed to know of any malfunction before buying. For instance Softube REs are so expensive that any known bug would be good to be displayed.

The list should be free from moral judgements or such things. It should be a gathering knowledge that is floating around and have it on one place. No black list, but it could be a red flag for some users and they save their money or buy another RE that has better maintenance.

But not merely a bug fix list, I suggest also info such as if a VST version exists with features more advanced than the RE version, for instance Ujam devices where their Vst have midi drag and drop and their RE dont. Many more examples.in threads all spread out in tjis forum. Better gather such info and be of service to the community. Being overly protective of the lackings of developers or defending RS bad behaviour wont bring any betterments at all.
We are users who support by buying and we should have consumer perspective, not a fan club.

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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

MannequinRaces wrote:
19 May 2020
Imagine a potential Reason user comes to ReasonTalk, sees a post pinned on top about bugs that are in the program they want to buy...
Are you suggesting that letting someone know that products they want to buy have bugs which will never get fixed is somehow doing a disservice?
why on Earth would you want to potentially turn away new users that could bring in more revenue?
I'm not trying to be a dick.... but seriously? Did I read that correctly? So profits come first, no matter what? I've got a car to sell you.... runs perfectly... nothing wrong with it. It gets 1000 miles/gallon.

I think developers should stand behind their products and fix their bugs. And if they don't, I think it's pretty messed up. Perhaps my language and tone have been a bit strong in this thread, that's because it really pisses me off when a Dev acknowledges a bug and then does nothing to fix it.

I think you might have the wrong idea of what I have in mind. I'm not talking about raiding businesses with pitchforks or being uncivil. I don't want RT to be like KVR. Unaddressed bugs is a hot-button issue for me, so my tone has been admittedly strong.

HOWEVER, there is nothing wrong with compiling a list of products containing reported/confirmed bugs. It would, at the very least, give a potential buyer correct information to make a wise purchase. The product page in the shop certainly isn't going to tell them about the bugs. Think of it like Consumer Reports for REs. And if you can't support such a thing, I really don't understand why. And that's fine, we don't have to agree. :)
I get that you're not happy about bugs, I get it, I don't like them in software either and there are some in Reason I hate that I doubt will get fixed...
Glad we agree about this.
MannequinRaces wrote:
19 May 2020
I just think this is the wrong approach. This is some scarlet letter bullshit.
Scarlet letter B for bug, maybe? Perhaps that should be the subject line of the topic.
Yonatan wrote:
20 May 2020
A list of known bugs on REs in the RE part of ReasonTalk, would indeed be very helpful................... not a fan club.
I completely agree with you.
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Arjanders
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
19 May 2020

I think we need to compile a list of REs with known bugs and pin it to the top of the RE forum.

I think this is an excellent idea.

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

Arjanders wrote:
20 May 2020
challism wrote:
19 May 2020

I think we need to compile a list of REs with known bugs and pin it to the top of the RE forum.

I think this is an excellent idea.
Put RDK at the top of the list. Right above Layers.
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Yonatan
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Post 20 May 2020

MrFigg wrote:
20 May 2020
Arjanders wrote:
20 May 2020



I think this is an excellent idea.
Put RDK at the top of the list. Right above Layers.
Reason Drum Kits RE has a bug?

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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

Yonatan wrote:
20 May 2020
MrFigg wrote:
20 May 2020


Put RDK at the top of the list. Right above Layers.
Reason Drum Kits RE has a bug?
Two as far as I know. Here’s one:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7513965&p=465974&hi ... ug#p465974

The other has something to do with settings disappearing after a patch is saved and reloaded but I can’t remember the details just now. Maybe someone else can remember. It had been confirmed in any case.

And while we’re at it here’s a drum sequencer bug:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7517409&hilit=Bug+re
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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

I think such a list should be kept (and updated) with the first post acting as the master list, with reports and discussion in the following threads. Very similar to the way the "Free RE's" list is kept. This will help keep it the listed items very easy to find/users won't have to peruse the entire topic.

And I agree we should keep it civil, respectful and without personal attacks to the developers.

EDIT: I just created the thread. Here it is. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7517744

I think we should keep the discussion on target for REs and not general Reason bugs, since this is the RE forum. Should we also create a bug list for Reason DAW and included devices in the General Reason forum?
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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

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Arjanders
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
20 May 2020
I think such a list should be kept (and updated) with the first post acting as the master list, with reports and discussion in the following threads. Very similar to the way the "Free RE's" list is kept. This will help keep it the listed items very easy to find/users won't have to peruse the entire topic.

And I agree we should keep it civil, respectful and without personal attacks to the developers.
Do you want to organise this or do you need somebody else to step in?

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Boombastix
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Post 20 May 2020

I have pretty much stopped reporting bugs. Took too much of my time and not much seems to happen (This does not apply to all developers as some are very responsive and nice to cooperate with, but it applies to some). But I don't really buy or plan to buy much either from them - coincidence?!...

RS could have the power to stop selling the buggy REs and put real pressure on fixing them. But maybe there is no return on the investment to fix them, and for RS it is still cash in the pocket when they sell. I think I'm about to trust the car dealer in a dark alley more, we'll see... They can certainly do better than this.
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MrFigg
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Post 20 May 2020

Even if RS don’t pressure other developers to fix stuff they could at least fix their own stuff.
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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

I have started the topic here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7517744
MrFigg wrote:
20 May 2020
Even if RS don’t pressure other developers to fix stuff they could at least fix their own stuff.
I agree 100%. Fix the bugs in old REs before developing new REs. If this DAW is supposed to be considered professional-grade, bugs should not be left to rot.

Boombastix wrote:
20 May 2020
I have pretty much stopped reporting bugs. Took too much of my time and not much seems to happen (This does not apply to all developers as some are very responsive and nice to cooperate with, but it applies to some). But I don't really buy or plan to buy much either from them - coincidence?!...

RS could have the power to stop selling the buggy REs and put real pressure on fixing them. But maybe there is no return on the investment to fix them, and for RS it is still cash in the pocket when they sell. I think I'm about to trust the car dealer in a dark alley more, we'll see... They can certainly do better than this.
Or, at the very least, they should put a disclaimer on the device's shop page. It's dishonest of them not to do that, if they know about the bug, IMO. I, too, have stopped reporting bugs to RS. The last 2 or 3 bugs I found would have just been a waste of my time, because they never seem to fix them anyway. Not cool.

I think the majority of developers have done a very nice job fixing bugs. It's really too bad that the owners of the DAW aren't on that list.
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MannequinRaces
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
20 May 2020
MannequinRaces wrote:
19 May 2020
Imagine a potential Reason user comes to ReasonTalk, sees a post pinned on top about bugs that are in the program they want to buy...
Are you suggesting that letting someone know that products they want to buy have bugs which will never get fixed is somehow doing a disservice?
why on Earth would you want to potentially turn away new users that could bring in more revenue?
I'm not trying to be a dick.... but seriously? Did I read that correctly? So profits come first, no matter what? I've got a car to sell you.... runs perfectly... nothing wrong with it. It gets 1000 miles/gallon.

I think developers should stand behind their products and fix their bugs. And if they don't, I think it's pretty messed up. Perhaps my language and tone have been a bit strong in this thread, that's because it really pisses me off when a Dev acknowledges a bug and then does nothing to fix it.

I think you might have the wrong idea of what I have in mind. I'm not talking about raiding businesses with pitchforks or being uncivil. I don't want RT to be like KVR. Unaddressed bugs is a hot-button issue for me, so my tone has been admittedly strong.

HOWEVER, there is nothing wrong with compiling a list of products containing reported/confirmed bugs. It would, at the very least, give a potential buyer correct information to make a wise purchase. The product page in the shop certainly isn't going to tell them about the bugs. Think of it like Consumer Reports for REs. And if you can't support such a thing, I really don't understand why. And that's fine, we don't have to agree. :)
I get that you're not happy about bugs, I get it, I don't like them in software either and there are some in Reason I hate that I doubt will get fixed...
Glad we agree about this.
MannequinRaces wrote:
19 May 2020
I just think this is the wrong approach. This is some scarlet letter bullshit.
Scarlet letter B for bug, maybe? Perhaps that should be the subject line of the topic.
Yonatan wrote:
20 May 2020
A list of known bugs on REs in the RE part of ReasonTalk, would indeed be very helpful................... not a fan club.
I completely agree with you.
I think at the end of the day you guys are going to put a lot of time and energy into this for little results. I wish you the best in maintaining the list. I do agree that it could be beneficial. Maybe I’ll even contribute one of these days.

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challism
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Post 20 May 2020

The thing is, people have already taken the time and continue to post bug reports on RT. I don't think it's going to be that much work to compile them together on a master list. It's essentially copy/pasting. Very much the same as the Free RE list I have maintained over the years on RT. I'm glad you see the value in the thread, MannequinRaces. :)
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MannequinRaces
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Post 20 May 2020

challism wrote:
20 May 2020
The thing is, people have already taken the time and continue to post bug reports on RT. I don't think it's going to be that much work to compile them together on a master list. It's essentially copy/pasting. Very much the same as the Free RE list I have maintained over the years on RT. I'm glad you see the value in the thread, MannequinRaces. :)
If you’re up for the work more power to you! Thank you for maintaining the Free RE thread, very helpful. Hope you guys don’t get too disappointment when none of these bugs get fixed. :) After some pondering I do realize that this is a good thing for consumers. People should know if a device they’re buying is buggy and how severe the bug is. Just please give developers time to fix known bugs before blasting them in that forum (I’m referring to new ones).

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