Corona impact on music making

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Bes
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Post 16 Mar 2020

i came here to say that i feel ill and although it's probably just an upper respiratory illness that is also going around, the reports about covid-19 and the peoples response to it was making me very scared before then (i have long term suffered from anxiety that i was only recently getting on top of). i've kind of stopped doing music composition to get more rest or just watch more tv but i miss it so maybe that will change today? my heart goes out to every one of you dealing with whatever you are dealing with and i hope folks are being kind and good in your space

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orthodox
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Post 16 Mar 2020

guitfnky wrote:
16 Mar 2020
but this...
I would like my children to live in a world with more people like me and less people like you
this is just a spectacularly shitty thing for anyone to say to anyone, ever, under any circumstance, and I should have specifically called it out or reported it. my bad.
What's wrong with that quote? What if it said "I would like my children to live in a world with less fascists and racists in it"? It's not about superiority of some people over others. Some people just tend to think they are smart enough to rule over others' way of living. But it's all vanity.

"Wise or foolish, we all die and are soon forgotten." (Ecc.2:16)
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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EdwardKiy
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Post 16 Mar 2020

Bes wrote:
16 Mar 2020
i came here to say that i feel ill and although it's probably just an upper respiratory illness that is also going around, the reports about covid-19 and the peoples response to it was making me very scared before then (i have long term suffered from anxiety that i was only recently getting on top of). i've kind of stopped doing music composition to get more rest or just watch more tv but i miss it so maybe that will change today? my heart goes out to every one of you dealing with whatever you are dealing with and i hope folks are being kind and good in your space
Don't worry Bes, you'll be fine. Statistics are reassuring.
This is updated regularly.
https://informationisbeautiful.net/visu ... CCtxGGJ4l0

And on the off-chance that you were lucky enough to get corona this early, you will be among the first ones to develop immunity to a weaker strain. And go for music - watching TV will probably only increase anxiety anyway ;)

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jappe
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Post 16 Mar 2020

Bes wrote:
16 Mar 2020
i came here to say that i feel ill and although it's probably just an upper respiratory illness that is also going around, the reports about covid-19 and the peoples response to it was making me very scared before then (i have long term suffered from anxiety that i was only recently getting on top of). i've kind of stopped doing music composition to get more rest or just watch more tv but i miss it so maybe that will change today? my heart goes out to every one of you dealing with whatever you are dealing with and i hope folks are being kind and good in your space
In these times it's good to be busy with stuff that breaks unhealthy corona focus.
Thank you for your well wishes and I wish the same to you, take care!

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guitfnky
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Post 16 Mar 2020

orthodox wrote:
16 Mar 2020
guitfnky wrote:
16 Mar 2020
but this...



this is just a spectacularly shitty thing for anyone to say to anyone, ever, under any circumstance, and I should have specifically called it out or reported it. my bad.
What's wrong with that quote? What if it said "I would like my children to live in a world with less fascists and racists in it"? It's not about superiority of some people over others. Some people just tend to think they are smart enough to rule over others' way of living. But it's all vanity.

"Wise or foolish, we all die and are soon forgotten." (Ecc.2:16)
really? you really honestly think that’s an okay thing to say to someone you disagree with?

k.

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orthodox
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Post 16 Mar 2020

guitfnky wrote:
16 Mar 2020
orthodox wrote:
16 Mar 2020


What's wrong with that quote? What if it said "I would like my children to live in a world with less fascists and racists in it"? It's not about superiority of some people over others. Some people just tend to think they are smart enough to rule over others' way of living. But it's all vanity.

"Wise or foolish, we all die and are soon forgotten." (Ecc.2:16)
really? you really honestly think that’s an okay thing to say to someone you disagree with?

k.
Absolutely. It's a fairly moderate way of wishing the opposite party be less successful in spreading their point of view. A democrat would wish their children to live in a world with less republicans, a republican - the other way around. Though they both know it's not gonna happen.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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guitfnky
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Post 16 Mar 2020

orthodox wrote:
16 Mar 2020
guitfnky wrote:
16 Mar 2020


really? you really honestly think that’s an okay thing to say to someone you disagree with?

k.
Absolutely. It's a fairly moderate way of wishing the opposite party be less successful in spreading their point of view. A democrat would wish their children to live in a world with less republicans, a republican - the other way around. Though they both know it's not gonna happen.
you’re ignoring the context in which the statement was made.

and I’m a democrat. I don’t wish for more democrats or fewer republicans. I wish for more people who base their opinions on reality, and (wait for it), proper context. and that’s got nothing to do with procreation or the gene pool (as was suggested). it’s got everything to do with upbringing and education.

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Proboscis
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Post 16 Mar 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
16 Mar 2020

There's all sorts of experiments and models showing the hyperbolic growth and self-limiting pattern of population growth (Like the Kapitsa one). https://www.academia.edu/35548090/Mathe ... tem_Growth

You should really consider reading a few books to at least see the scope of your ignorance before expressing opinions on anything. Or at least research a little before you do.
I'm going to set aside the personal insults you are making, and keep this discussion to generalization. I would appreciate if you were to do the same, as I would like to expand upon some of the notions being discussed in this thread. I believe that open discussion benefits everyone who choose to engage, even with the disagreements.

I would like to read that paper you linked to... can you tell me if I give my email address to that site, will I get the paper for free ? I'm cautious about what I sign up to (if you already have it, perhaps you might zip it and post it to this thread instead)

However, I'm going to assume you're referring to the futurist academic speculation that population growth will plateau. And I do not discount that speculation. There is a more recent talk by the late Dr. Hans Rosling (I believe in the past 10 years), in that demographers suggests greater economic prosperity/less poverty will inevitably lead to a reduced population growth. At least that's how I recall it, but I'll revisit the lecture this week)

That plateau isn't due for another 80 years, at 11 billion people. And of course there are new considerations, such as automation of manufacturing & service industries. Perhaps all predictions prior to five years ago need to be re-evaluated, since economic stability may take a downward turn.

However, let's work with less poverty = less population growth. A popular theory is that people in poverty have classically had more children, as a safeguard against their own future... if one kid is successful then their old-age life will be less of a struggle. Another driver of lower reproduction rate is a higher education. Education + Economic Stability is also intrinsically tied together.

My position is that we are already beyond comfortable capacity, and the actions humans are taking are of a tremendous detriment to the planet.

Old-Growth forests are being logged and cleared at an alarming rate. For as long as people insisting having a meat-rich diet, land will continue to be cleared for animal agriculture. Waterways will continue to be polluted by toxic runoff. The 'Fast Fashion' trend calls for more cotton production, which leads to land clearing. More people means larger cities, and often new cities. Again, this requires land clearing.

An increasing population requires more energy resources. There is no infinite coal pit or oil well that will magically produce fossil fuel forever.

More people also means more waste. In fact, as economic prosperity touches people in Asian nations, their demands for consumables increases. Take India's economic uptick in recent years. All of a sudden, town water is not good enough for their new prosperity, so they buy bottled water. The old hand made clothing is below their new status, they need brand-name threads (or copies of) to express their good fortune. Some may be able to travel abroad, where they never could before, in a commercial jet loaded with 80,000 gallons of aviation fuel. The people with a newfound prosperity might live in a humid climate, making it appealing to use their newfound money to buy a clothes dryer, rather than try and line-dry their fancy newfound label clothing. An appliance that burns a lot of energy.

Therefore, while one might argue that over the next century there will be a population growth plateau due to these factors (greater prosperity = more education = decline in birth rate). the problem is that a more economically stable a person is = more resources are being used, and more waste is being generated

There another problem. The greater economic prosperity, the better access one has to health care. That means people will be living for longer. This is compounded also by science & technology, in that we have discovered treatments (or eradication methods) that are extending life expectancy rates, particularly in 'developing countries', or what in the old days was referred to as 'Third World'.

In 1990, the life expectancy in India was 58 years. In 2016 it was 68 years. People are living 10 years longer.

In 1990, the life expectancy in China was 69 years. In 2016 it was 76 years. People are living 7 years longer.

In 1990, the life expectancy in USA was 75 years. In 2016 it was 78 years. People are living 3 years longer.

These figures are perhaps the most illustrative of increased prosperity directly impacting population growth (and by growth, I use the measure of births minus deaths, and a +/- movement away from zero). You will know that India & China are growing rapidly, economically speaking. And the USA hasn't, at the same rate, to impact the common majority's way of life. That explains why USA has only gained 3 years in life expectancy, and India's has tripled.

So I guess it becomes a race between people having less kids, and people living longer. I have no numbers (yet) to support this, but I will tentatively assume that this will not bode well for stabilized population growth.

Come what may, this means a decrease in the standard of living, when we are choking on emissions, living in higher density cities (a perfect virus transmission vector!) and dumping waste into the ocean (or burning it - just as bad). Governments & Industry have been very slow to enact better solutions for energy & waste management, and 'waiting until we have to do something' is a narrow minded focus. One might argue that the time is now. Me, I would argue that it should have been addressed 20 years ago.

Which is why I suggested a coronavirus or other some such controls to stop the count on population growth. I'm not suggesting that nobody have children, rather that it must be in perfect balance with the number of deaths. And that number should be zero. It would be absurd to argue that more people will equal better treatment of the planet.

Think of the earth as a public bus. 60 people can sit in that bus, in fact that's it's stated maximum capacity. But if we crammed three people into every two seat arrangement, we can expand the vehicle's capacity to 90 people. The engine will start to groan a bit, and road handling will suffer, but who cares, we've moved an extra 50% of people from A to B. Let's not stop there, because we can really cram a few more people in the aisles, maybe 30 more. Suddenly, or bus capacity has doubled ! The engine will now heave under the strain, parts will deteriorate faster, fuel economy will go way down, the suspension will be shot, tires will need replacing more often and the life span of that bus will have been halved. That bus, rated to comfortably move 60 people, can now uncomfortably move twice as many.

Is this the world you want your kids to live in ? An overloaded bus that's dying rapidly, spewing out black smoke every time the ignition is turned over?

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orthodox
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Post 16 Mar 2020

guitfnky wrote:
16 Mar 2020
orthodox wrote:
16 Mar 2020


Absolutely. It's a fairly moderate way of wishing the opposite party be less successful in spreading their point of view. A democrat would wish their children to live in a world with less republicans, a republican - the other way around. Though they both know it's not gonna happen.
you’re ignoring the context in which the statement was made.

and I’m a democrat. I don’t wish for more democrats or fewer republicans. I wish for more people who base their opinions on reality, and (wait for it), proper context. and that’s got nothing to do with procreation or the gene pool (as was suggested). it’s got everything to do with upbringing and education.
I just read the original statement. The gene thing was indeed nonsense, those attributes are not inherited through genes. Yet all those things mentioned (poverty, profession, success) could not relate to the addressee either, so I'm assuming that the statement was rather about one's ideology, which is perfectly normal.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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Proboscis
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Post 16 Mar 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
16 Mar 2020
So we'll "use up" all the lithium on the planet - where will it go? Any guesses?
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this ?

Lithium is an unusual element to enter into this discussion, so I'm hoping you can expand upon your comment.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 17 Mar 2020

orthodox wrote:
16 Mar 2020

I just read the original statement. The gene thing was indeed nonsense, those attributes are not inherited through genes. Yet all those things mentioned (poverty, profession, success) could not relate to the addressee either, so I'm assuming that the statement was rather about one's ideology, which is perfectly normal.
I don't expect this ignoramus to have read Darwin. If you want to get technical, I was referring to epigenetic and persistent phenotype plasticity inheritance. I imagine this information to be arcane to a person suggesting mass genocide as viable means of population control. Props for catching me by the word though.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 17 Mar 2020

Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020

I'm going to set aside the personal insults you are making, and keep this discussion to generalization. I would appreciate if you were to do the same, as I would like to expand upon some of the notions being discussed in this thread. I believe that open discussion benefits everyone who choose to engage, even with the disagreements.
And I'm going to set aside your suggestion of mass genocide as means of population control. I'll get back to this once I've taken care of my chores and had some sleep.

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Proboscis
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Post 17 Mar 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
17 Mar 2020
I don't expect this ignoramus to have read Darwin.
Who, me ? I'm all for Darwin's notions. So much so that I'm a bit put off by Orthodox's seeds of theism as an answer to the conundrum that the world faces. "God Will Sort it Out" is most certainly not my position.

But, as some have offered earlier, 'survival of the fittest' is indeed an answer. I'm proposing that if a virus were to calibrate the world's population to a number of zero every year, it would require approx. 1% of people to die from it, in the first year. So it's a good enough lottery to say people will have a 99% chance at survival. Let's stop the clock at precisely where it is now, with a population of 7.35 billion, and try to make some reparations to the earth.

I researched and crunched some more numbers, adding three more countries. Also a data set on life expectancy. Japan is another 'population reduction positive' country along with Russia. In every country's data, life expectancy is increasing.


>
worldpop17mar.PNG
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dioxide
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Post 17 Mar 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
16 Mar 2020
Bes wrote:
16 Mar 2020
i came here to say that i feel ill and although it's probably just an upper respiratory illness that is also going around, the reports about covid-19 and the peoples response to it was making me very scared before then (i have long term suffered from anxiety that i was only recently getting on top of). i've kind of stopped doing music composition to get more rest or just watch more tv but i miss it so maybe that will change today? my heart goes out to every one of you dealing with whatever you are dealing with and i hope folks are being kind and good in your space
Don't worry Bes, you'll be fine. Statistics are reassuring.
This is updated regularly.
https://informationisbeautiful.net/visu ... CCtxGGJ4l0

And on the off-chance that you were lucky enough to get corona this early, you will be among the first ones to develop immunity to a weaker strain. And go for music - watching TV will probably only increase anxiety anyway ;)
Reading through that seems reassuring, but it shouldn't be. It's rate of infection and fatality rate is similar to the Spanish Flu. Except that up til recently, we've been flying people back and forth all around the world.

It's ranked here amongst things like TB, Measles and things like Ebola. In the countries I've lived in, in Europe, people are either vaccinated, or those diseases don't really exist (eg Yellow Fever). The difference here is that this is going to be in your community in the next 1-3 weeks, depending on where you live. That means that you, or someone you know will get it. For me personally, I don't know anyone who has contracted Yellow Fever, or anyone who has a friend or relative that has contracted it.

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jappe
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Post 17 Mar 2020

One way of expressing and sharing thoughts, ideas and criticism is not through debate and conflict, but through music.
And if someone confronts you on the lyrics, then: "it's only music, like in movies not everything is supposed to represent the authors view...it could be just a fantasy"...perfect mitigation for opposition 🙂

I do believe troubled times like this contributes to creativity.
I also think it has a potential to contribute to polarization and unrest.
Personally I hope I will resist the urge to contribute to unrest

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EdwardKiy
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Post 17 Mar 2020

Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020

I would like to read that paper you linked to... can you tell me if I give my email address to that site, will I get the paper for free ? I'm cautious about what I sign up to (if you already have it, perhaps you might zip it and post it to this thread instead)
You don't have to download to read it. Just scroll down. From there you can go to Kapitsa's reasearch OR in any which direction. If you read the article carefully, you will notice they recommend observing these patterns in other system. Here's my example: cells in our bodies may proliferate until reaching a certain criteria, and then they stop. One of such well-studied feedback loops is the mechanical pressure by sheer amount of proliferated cells on the enveloping membranes, which creates a signal for proliferation to stop. There are cells that lose the ability to receive these feedback commands - that would be cancer and in non-equilibrium systems like a cell, (or an organ, or an organism) this will ultimately lead to the host's death. And the host for a human organism is humanity. Earth is neither an equilibrium nor a non-equilibrium system, as we have radioactive decaying energy from without to meddle with our concepts. But thankfully, we have all sorts of evidence to say that Earth can easily "balance out" something as inconsequential as humanity, should we meddle too much. With a virus, a fungus, a bacteria, symbiosis of any and all of them, a cataclysm or a new apex predator.
Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
However, I'm going to assume you're referring to the futurist academic speculation that population growth will plateau. And I do not discount that speculation. There is a more recent talk by the late Dr. Hans Rosling (I believe in the past 10 years), in that demographers suggests greater economic prosperity/less poverty will inevitably lead to a reduced population growth. At least that's how I recall it, but I'll revisit the lecture this week)
Calling evidence with 91% correlation with the data we have a "futuristic academic speculation" is... a bit of a stretch. Especially if your counter it with an assumption that is not only baseless, but proven to have zero correlation with data time and time again.

Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
My position is that we are already beyond comfortable capacity, and the actions humans are taking are of a tremendous detriment to the planet.
This is based on what?
Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
Old-Growth forests are being logged and cleared at an alarming rate. For as long as people insisting having a meat-rich diet, land will continue to be cleared for animal agriculture. Waterways will continue to be polluted by toxic runoff. The 'Fast Fashion' trend calls for more cotton production, which leads to land clearing. More people means larger cities, and often new cities. Again, this requires land clearing.

An increasing population requires more energy resources. There is no infinite coal pit or oil well that will magically produce fossil fuel forever.

More people also means more waste. In fact, as economic prosperity touches people in Asian nations, their demands for consumables increases. Take India's economic uptick in recent years. All of a sudden, town water is not good enough for their new prosperity, so they buy bottled water. The old hand made clothing is below their new status, they need brand-name threads (or copies of) to express their good fortune. Some may be able to travel abroad, where they never could before, in a commercial jet loaded with 80,000 gallons of aviation fuel. The people with a newfound prosperity might live in a humid climate, making it appealing to use their newfound money to buy a clothes dryer, rather than try and line-dry their fancy newfound label clothing. An appliance that burns a lot of energy.
This is a hodgepodge of media swill. I'm going to give you a few points, but I can't be bothered doing all the work for you.

There are more trees now than there ever were and they are growing ever faster, because for a number of reasons, mostly non-anthropogenic, the CO2 levels at this time are becoming higher, and this just leads to more plant growth and higher O2 emissions. This is just kindergarten level biology.

The "toxic waste" is literally of 0 consequence to the planet as a whole. Plastic is made from matter that is already here, we haven't INTRODUCED it.
waste-energy depletion-cotton bla bla bla --> Law of Conservation of Matter
Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
Come what may, this means a decrease in the standard of living,
this is completely up to your country's policies
Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
when we are choking on emissions, living in higher density cities (a perfect virus transmission vector!) and dumping waste into the ocean (or burning it - just as bad).
Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
Which is why I suggested a coronavirus or other some such controls to stop the count on population growth. I'm not suggesting that nobody have children, rather that it must be in perfect balance with the number of deaths.
This is genocide and forced control over else's lives. This means you also have poor understanding of human history and literature.
Proboscis wrote:
16 Mar 2020
Think of the earth as a public bus. 60 people can sit in that bus, in fact that's it's stated maximum capacity. But if we crammed three people into every two seat arrangement, we can expand the vehicle's capacity to 90 people. The engine will start to groan a bit, and road handling will suffer, but who cares, we've moved an extra 50% of people from A to B. Let's not stop there, because we can really cram a few more people in the aisles, maybe 30 more. Suddenly, or bus capacity has doubled ! The engine will now heave under the strain, parts will deteriorate faster, fuel economy will go way down, the suspension will be shot, tires will need replacing more often and the life span of that bus will have been halved. That bus, rated to comfortably move 60 people, can now uncomfortably move twice as many.

Is this the world you want your kids to live in ? An overloaded bus that's dying rapidly, spewing out black smoke every time the ignition is turned over?
I'll leave you to review this at a later point in the light of everything I've already said
Last edited by EdwardKiy on 17 Mar 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 17 Mar 2020

jappe wrote:
17 Mar 2020
One way of expressing and sharing thoughts, ideas and criticism is not through debate and conflict, but through music.
Thanks, but let's not forget that dialogue, debate and conflict are effective ways of achieving truth. We must welcome opposite views, go towards and explore, not hide our heads in the sand or flip tables screaming.

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selig
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Post 17 Mar 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
16 Mar 2020
selig wrote:
16 Mar 2020

No one cares what either of you think of each other, at least not in this thread. So please both of you leave it alone - personal attacks are not tolerated, so get back on topic or take a break please.
What's wrong with a little back-and-forth in the kitchen? Hold on man, I think we're on the verge of discovering something major here.
Nothing, as long as you don't follow through with your idea that getting "nasty" is socially acceptable here. Just stick to the facts, no personal attacks please.
Selig Audio, LLC

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jappe
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Post 17 Mar 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
17 Mar 2020
jappe wrote:
17 Mar 2020
One way of expressing and sharing thoughts, ideas and criticism is not through debate and conflict, but through music.
Thanks, but let's not forget that dialogue, debate and conflict are effective ways of achieving truth. We must welcome opposite views go towards and explore, not hide our heads in the sand or flip tables screaming.
That's actually a great thing with music.
In debate, the good debater has an advantage.
In music, everybody wins.

That said, I agree that threads meant for debate and conflict can be effective ways of achieving truth.

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orthodox
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Post 18 Mar 2020

I'd like to suggest a good dystopia about the world reaching overpopulation: "The Wanting Seed" by Anthony Burgess
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll


Lokey
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Post 18 Mar 2020

fl mobile

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selig
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Post 18 Mar 2020

joeyluck wrote:
18 Mar 2020
Ahh, the power of music to bring strangers together.

Makes me think I should set up my gear on my terrace, but I don't think there are any other musicians in ear-shot - would more likely have someone yelling at me to STFU!!! ;)
Selig Audio, LLC


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EdwardKiy
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Post 19 Mar 2020

ahahah that last one cracked me up. classic.

https://youtu.be/VP3eiC2tcp8

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