I think what EnochLight meant to say is that Reason Studios have implemented the RRP VST3 correctly, and that they can't be held responsible for other DAWs not supporting everything in the VST3 spec, like the legacy MIDI CC out event.Proboscis wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020Wait.... what ?EnochLight wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020Clearly Reason Studios can't be held responsible for correctly implementing RRP as a VST3.
Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !
I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
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^ Yeah exactly that. RRP meets the VST3 standard. It's the hosts that don't support CC out, that are falling short now. And they've had plenty of time to fix it!
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^^ Exactly this. ^^
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I'm under the impression presonus support is actually listening to customers. They fixed an issue I reported within weeks so I'm hopeful this will also get fixed.danc wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020I've had two responses back from Presonus now on this subject.danc wrote: ↑25 Feb 2020
The VST 3 MIDI CC issue in S1 isn't exclusively a problem with Reason Rack... it's a problem in all VST3's in S1... look here: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 7&t=540109
UPDATE: Which no doubt you have.. as you are posting on that forum. I tried some VST2 wrappers and couldn't get it to work that way either.
They confirmed that a number of people have raised this problem with them - regarding the Reason Rack plugin.
In their first message they said that Reason Studios would need to contact them and send them the plugin to help resolve the issue.
A second mail arrived from them that confirms that they have now escalated the issue. They've passed the problem onto their QA team to test/confirm and that they will then follow up resolution from there.
Fingers crossed.
Whereas... Reason Studios have not even responded to my support ticket yet - I contacted them a day earlier than Presonus. I know it's not a pissing contest between the 2 companies on who has better support... but receiving NO support isn't acceptable.
What I don't understand is why this is important. I mean, the only synths I know able to route midi input in the matrix is avenger vst and some rob papen synths. Pigments, Dune3, Spire to name a few all don't support this (except the obvious mod wheel). You could be mapping midi CC's for external control but then again you'd need to remember each parameter CC which is not very handy.
Wouldn't it make much more sense to allow VST inside the reason rack of am I missing something here?
If they make it drag and drop I'd be more excited
I gladly came back to Reason and dumped Cubase, the creators of the VST platform, because their own F@<{!ng host won’t implement things with I/O routing that VST’s can do that other DAWs are taking advantage of and making a killing on.Proboscis wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020Wait.... what ?EnochLight wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020Clearly Reason Studios can't be held responsible for correctly implementing RRP as a VST3.
Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !
I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
The Silent Way VST suite for connecting to Expert Sleepers hardware is completely unusable in Cubase, because there’s no free routing to all the plugins’ inputs and outputs. Even after upgrading Cubase twice (Artist 8.5 to Pro 8.5 then Pro 9), the supposed new routing capabilities sucked donkey balls and didn’t work.
Thankfully it’s a matter of carefully patching cables on the back of the rack in Reason, and now I don’t have to spend another dime with Steinberg!
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I'm forever ping-ponging between Reason and Cubase these days. Just got 10.5 last night. Padshop Pro 2 is great, although really that's most of what you're paying for. The DAW updates are actually pretty scant. A new delay, coloured mixer channels (wooo). There's a new EQ comparison feature which I guess is pretty neat.DJMaytag wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020I gladly came back to Reason and dumped Cubase, the creators of the VST platform, because their own F@<{!ng host won’t implement things with I/O routing that VST’s can do that other DAWs are taking advantage of and making a killing on.
The Silent Way VST suite for connecting to Expert Sleepers hardware is completely unusable in Cubase, because there’s no free routing to all the plugins’ inputs and outputs. Even after upgrading Cubase twice (Artist 8.5 to Pro 8.5 then Pro 9), the supposed new routing capabilities sucked donkey balls and didn’t work.
Thankfully it’s a matter of carefully patching cables on the back of the rack in Reason, and now I don’t have to spend another dime with Steinberg!
I'm working on a couple of things with RRP in Cubase atm and it *is* amazing. But, every time I have to deal with automation in Cubase I end up wishing I was back in Reason. But then when I try to do the same project in Reason, I wish I had folders, MIDI note chase and note preview on arrow nudge in the editor. Which - and this is no exaggeration - are pretty much the only THREE features that cause me to open up Cubase atm.
I do miss folders, but the organized folder setup in Cubase was fantastic. I pretty much hate having to spend time sort thru plugins by manufacturer in Reason, though I have finally set up favorites in the browser bar. I just right click to add everything as an ingrained habit of working for over a decade now.chimp_spanner wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020I'm working on a couple of things with RRP in Cubase atm and it *is* amazing. But, every time I have to deal with automation in Cubase I end up wishing I was back in Reason. But then when I try to do the same project in Reason, I wish I had folders, MIDI note chase and note preview on arrow nudge in the editor. Which - and this is no exaggeration - are pretty much the only THREE features that cause me to open up Cubase atm.
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OMFG yes! We need to start a campaign to get Reason Studios to add that! ^^chimp_spanner wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020But then when I try to do the same project in Reason, I wish I had folders, MIDI note chase and note preview on arrow nudge in the editor.
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As somebody who uses Reason as a standalone DAW, I'm sticking with 10 until something big comes out besides romplers and chrous/flanger effects. This is very useful for Ableton users and it's a cool move by Reason Studios to get sales from a whole new customer base.
In the 90s, my midi music was on the Baulder's Gate site. That was my life peak.
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To be fair, the new effects do a bit more than that. I'll admit I thought it was just a new chorus/flanger when they announced it. The chorus has some great shimmer modes, but also FFT resynthesis and a real time granulariser. And the flanger can do a kind of physical modelling/resonance thing with up to 40 phaser stages, flanging (obviously) and a filter. So it's a good multi-purpose tool where you might normally reach for a lot of different devices. Also has the modulation envelope out of Europa/Grain built in, plus an envelope follower. I use it waaay more than I thought I would.Wobbleburger wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020As somebody who uses Reason as a standalone DAW, I'm sticking with 10 until something big comes out besides romplers and chrous/flanger effects. This is very useful for Ableton users and it's a cool move by Reason Studios to get sales from a whole new customer base.
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Yeah, I think Sweeper and Quartet were under-hyped. They both hearken back to the days before REs and VSTs, when a new Reason device had to be extremely versatile because that was all you got!chimp_spanner wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020To be fair, the new effects do a bit more than that. I'll admit I thought it was just a new chorus/flanger when they announced it. The chorus has some great shimmer modes, but also FFT resynthesis and a real time granulariser. And the flanger can do a kind of physical modelling/resonance thing with up to 40 phaser stages, flanging (obviously) and a filter. So it's a good multi-purpose tool where you might normally reach for a lot of different devices. Also has the modulation envelope out of Europa/Grain built in, plus an envelope follower. I use it waaay more than I thought I would.Wobbleburger wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020As somebody who uses Reason as a standalone DAW, I'm sticking with 10 until something big comes out besides romplers and chrous/flanger effects. This is very useful for Ableton users and it's a cool move by Reason Studios to get sales from a whole new customer base.
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Indeed! Also, because they're so effective, I think them appearing as native Reason devices pissed at least one RE developer off (they who shall remain nameless). Certainly made some popular stuff in the shop obsolete.fieldframe wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020Yeah, I think Sweeper and Quartet were under-hyped. They both hearken back to the days before REs and VSTs, when a new Reason device had to be extremely versatile because that was all you got!
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Call me slow just figured out how to use use reason to generate midi in Cubase and it is Glorious.
I have been heavily relying on reason's secret weapon for almost 20 years and now I can use it in my other DAW. Long live the props.
I have been heavily relying on reason's secret weapon for almost 20 years and now I can use it in my other DAW. Long live the props.
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Concerning midi cc from rack players to VST:
Anybody?dezma wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020What I don't understand is why this is important. I mean, the only synths I know able to route midi input in the matrix is avenger vst and some rob papen synths. Pigments, Dune3, Spire to name a few all don't support this (except the obvious mod wheel). You could be mapping midi CC's for external control but then again you'd need to remember each parameter CC which is not very handy.
Wouldn't it make much more sense to allow VST inside the reason rack of am I missing something here?
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Well what if a synth only has limited (or basic) modulation sources? And you wanted to modulate more parameters than its matrix allows? What if you want to design your own LFO shape using any of the various CV utilities in the shop (or the Envelope out of something like Sweeper or Grain/Europa)? What if you wanted to trigger a modulation envelope with a kick drum to control a parameter on another synth somewhere else in the project? What if you wanted to use the CV programmer lanes in Player or Pattern devices to adjust synth parameters as well as send note data, or send interesting/rhythmical curve shapes to effect devices that don't have pattern sequencers?dezma wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020Concerning midi cc from rack players to VST:
Anybody?dezma wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020What I don't understand is why this is important. I mean, the only synths I know able to route midi input in the matrix is avenger vst and some rob papen synths. Pigments, Dune3, Spire to name a few all don't support this (except the obvious mod wheel). You could be mapping midi CC's for external control but then again you'd need to remember each parameter CC which is not very handy.
Wouldn't it make much more sense to allow VST inside the reason rack of am I missing something here?
For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
100% agree - it is ESSENTIAL for me. With the MIDI CC out it will make RRP an essential plugin for modulating my VST's.chimp_spanner wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
As an update - Presonus support were pretty chatty about the issue and understand that the MIDI CC problem from VST3 isn't unique to RRP, but for any VST3. They have passed it onto their QA team to confirm that it's an issue and will rectify if found to be a problem. I await with baited breath (although I'm likely to take a few sneaky breaths along the way.. as it will probably be months before we see a fix).
Also - I did talk to Reason Studios support and they said they'd look at updating their website to make it clear that MIDI CC only works on a few DAWs (not all). Just looked now at https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason ... s/midi-out and it hasn't been updated yet. It still says"... control any other plugin or external hardware in your DAW of choice." As we know - that isn't true.
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Thanks for the info but this part was already clear I'm just wondering how you would do the mapping between midi cc channel and the vst synth since most synths don't have midi cc as a mod sourcechimp_spanner wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020Well what if a synth only has limited (or basic) modulation sources? And you wanted to modulate more parameters than its matrix allows? What if you want to design your own LFO shape using any of the various CV utilities in the shop (or the Envelope out of something like Sweeper or Grain/Europa)? What if you wanted to trigger a modulation envelope with a kick drum to control a parameter on another synth somewhere else in the project? What if you wanted to use the CV programmer lanes in Player or Pattern devices to adjust synth parameters as well as send note data, or send interesting/rhythmical curve shapes to effect devices that don't have pattern sequencers?
For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
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Ah gotcha! Well from my experience so far it's just done through MIDI learn. So you set your VST up to receive from RRP, right click a control, learn, set the modulation source going and it's assigned to whatever CC number you're transmitting on from the MIDI Out Device.dezma wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020Thanks for the info but this part was already clear I'm just wondering how you would do the mapping between midi cc channel and the vst synth since most synths don't have midi cc as a mod sourcechimp_spanner wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020
Well what if a synth only has limited (or basic) modulation sources? And you wanted to modulate more parameters than its matrix allows? What if you want to design your own LFO shape using any of the various CV utilities in the shop (or the Envelope out of something like Sweeper or Grain/Europa)? What if you wanted to trigger a modulation envelope with a kick drum to control a parameter on another synth somewhere else in the project? What if you wanted to use the CV programmer lanes in Player or Pattern devices to adjust synth parameters as well as send note data, or send interesting/rhythmical curve shapes to effect devices that don't have pattern sequencers?
For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
FWIW the problem of not being able to receive CC from the midi-out device in RRP, also exists in Bitwig, which is really a pity.
I contacted Bitwig about it , no response yet.
As it is now, the VST wrapper device in Bitwig does not transmit CC out to the next device in chain.
At least not with RRP, i haven't checked any other VST.
I contacted Bitwig about it , no response yet.
As it is now, the VST wrapper device in Bitwig does not transmit CC out to the next device in chain.
At least not with RRP, i haven't checked any other VST.
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It won't work with any other VST3 plugin. VST2, is fine. Also AU is fine if you're on Mac. I guess at the moment it probably seems like RRP is a special case (although it's nice to see PreSonus acknowledge that it's not *just* this plugin). But as the VST2 format is deprecated now I think this will become more of an issue in time until the hosts catch up!Eurikon wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020FWIW the problem of not being able to receive CC from the midi-out device in RRP, also exists in Bitwig, which is really a pity.
I contacted Bitwig about it , no response yet.
As it is now, the VST wrapper device in Bitwig does not transmit CC out to the next device in chain.
At least not with RRP, i haven't checked any other VST.
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No, it cannot.
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Only if you use a VST host as a VST2 in Reason, that can load a VST3 (The Rack Plugin).
Probably the way to go and build up Racks that way if you then want to finish the song/mix in another DAW, though getting "midi stems" out of Reason is not that straight forward.
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Interesting. So, many other DAWs don't handle midi CC, thus the CV feature (a signature feature of Reason and RRP) cannot be fully utilized.chimp_spanner wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
Reason did not test this?
Add RRP VST hosting and it fixes this, but not a word if they will/are considering it. Hmmmm. Mattias needs to step up his game as Product Manager IMO, and put a focus on this. I hope he does.
And the VST hosting will make Reason Standalone Combinators with VSTs compatible with RRP, more fluid work-flow between DAWs. Makes so much sense.
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Ah ok, so it is a VST3 related problem, didn't know that!chimp_spanner wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020
It won't work with any other VST3 plugin. VST2, is fine. Also AU is fine if you're on Mac. I guess at the moment it probably seems like RRP is a special case (although it's nice to see PreSonus acknowledge that it's not *just* this plugin). But as the VST2 format is deprecated now I think this will become more of an issue in time until the hosts catch up!
Thanks
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