No more NDA!

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EpiGenetik
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29 Jan 2020

For the sake of clarity, we need to establish early on that any "official walk-throughs and tutorials" should have an RfC process. My earlier comment needed an edit, because something could have been taken out of context in a dangerous way - so any documentation which is accumulated needs the ability for editing, and not in a wiki-like manner.

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Loque
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29 Jan 2020

pongasoft wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Expect the source code for all my free REs (A/B Switch, A/B 12, CVA-7 and VAC-6) as well as my mini framework used to across all of them to be on github in the near future (once I find the time).
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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

I see no big deal in opening the SDK. Previously, a developer would only need to click a button, wait for a day and get those materials. What has changed, really?

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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I see no big deal in opening the SDK. Previously, a developer would only need to click a button, wait for a day and get those materials. What has changed, really?
Talking about it publicly, sharing any/all information publicly, having free and easy access to other devs sharing tips publicly, etc.
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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2020
orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I see no big deal in opening the SDK. Previously, a developer would only need to click a button, wait for a day and get those materials. What has changed, really?
Talking about it publicly, sharing any/all information publicly, having free and easy access to other devs sharing tips publicly, etc.
Well, looking forward to see if it boosts the number of the developers.
Last edited by orthodox on 29 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.

electrofux
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29 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I see no big deal in opening the SDK. Previously, a developer would only need to click a button, wait for a day and get those materials. What has changed, really?
The whole process in obtaining an SDK was kindof weird when you needed a company first then later you could leave that out even though it wasnt that clear. And than the NDA. I think it kept alot of people from signing up, inlcuding me.

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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
The whole process in obtaining an SDK was kindof weird when you needed a company first then later you could leave that out even though it wasnt that clear. And than the NDA. I think it kept alot of people from signing up, inlcuding me.
You still need a company if you are going to sell your products through the Shop. Why would you start developing REs otherwise, just to see them on your computer?

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Loque
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29 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
The whole process in obtaining an SDK was kindof weird when you needed a company first then later you could leave that out even though it wasnt that clear. And than the NDA. I think it kept alot of people from signing up, inlcuding me.
You still need a company if you are going to sell your products through the Shop. Why would you start developing REs otherwise, just to see them on your computer?
You still can create for yourself. I am not sure, if you need a company, if you do not sell anything since the company stuff is for VAT i guess.
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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
You still need a company if you are going to sell your products through the Shop. Why would you start developing REs otherwise, just to see them on your computer?
Depends on your country of origin. In the US it was as simple as creating a DBA (doing business as) "company". Totally free.
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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2020
You still can create for yourself. I am not sure, if you need a company, if you do not sell anything since the company stuff is for VAT i guess.
Yes, for VAT. In my country, I'm obliged to register a business entity if I produce and sell something, anyways. Besides, it's cheaper on taxes, 6% versus 13% I would pay if I declared it as personal income.

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Oquasec
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29 Jan 2020

I don't really see the problem.
You'd need to know every language in there before any of that information would be put to any use anyhow.
You'd literally need to be able to read C++/Lua/Python for anything to be useful in that sdk.
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electrofux
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29 Jan 2020

Oquasec wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I don't really see the problem.
You'd need to know every language in there before any of that information would be put to any use anyhow.
You'd literally need to be able to read C++/Lua/Python for anything to be useful in that sdk.
Dunno but the language part is not that important if you can program in any reasonable language. I for one have never programmed in C and i can read most of the simple examples pretty well.
First thing i do is make one of the example work in Recon and then change and add stuff. From there on you can go anywhere and learn while doing (and producing non elegant code ;-)

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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

Oquasec wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I don't really see the problem.
You'd need to know every language in there before any of that information would be put to any use anyhow.
You'd literally need to be able to read C++/Lua/Python for anything to be useful in that sdk.
First, you won't need to know Python, it's just used for the build scripts that you never change. I didn't know Lua when I started, but it took me only a week to study it together with the whole SDK. And I think everybody knows C++ if they are to write DSP stuff.

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aeox
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29 Jan 2020

electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
ok, found the documentation under https://developer.reasonstudios.com/documentation/ - was expecting a pdf in the zip file like in the Remote SDK.
Still have to figure out all bits of information to get started.
Thanks

stp2015
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29 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
First, you won't need to know Python, it's just used for the build scripts that you never change. I didn't know Lua when I started, but it took me only a week to study it together with the whole SDK. And I think everybody knows C++ if they are to write DSP stuff.
Such a shame, python is the only language I really know... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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EpiGenetik
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29 Jan 2020

stp2015 wrote:
29 Jan 2020
orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
First, you won't need to know Python, it's just used for the build scripts that you never change. I didn't know Lua when I started, but it took me only a week to study it together with the whole SDK. And I think everybody knows C++ if they are to write DSP stuff.
Such a shame, python is the only language I really know... :lol: :lol: :lol:
To be honest, although there are some conceptual differences and obvious linguistic changes, if you can code competently in Python then you're not far away at all from using C++, same with Java/Javascript. However, understanding the context of DSP itself, rather than the languages used, is what you would really need to get your head around.

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challism
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29 Jan 2020

fieldframe wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Agreed that this feels like a bit of a last ditch effort. I really hope it succeeds!

Honestly, though, the ideal time to do this was maybe four, five years ago, back when RE still had some appreciable momentum. The platform has been more or less dead in the water for the past year or so, and it's hard to say whether this will have an effect or not.

I think the real determining factor will be whether this spurs interest in (and whether the licensing allows) RE technology to be used outside of Reason, like the proofs-of-concept with MIND Music Labs' Elk. If it does, that will be a win for everyone, but if not, I don't think you're going to suddenly get a bunch of new developers for whom an NDA was the only thing keeping them from developing for Reason.

Anyway, fingers crossed that this is the beginning of a new era for the platform, and not resuscitating a dead horse.
Yeah, 3 or 4 years ago would have been the ideal time to make the open source move. Momentum is largely gone now. A few years ago, it seemed there were new REs coming out every couple of days. I was often times working as a beta tester for multiple REs at the same time. The golden age of the RE is well behind us, I'm afraid. But I do hope this will breathe some life back into the platform.

it would be great if REs were able to be some kind of stand alone application like VSTs. That would help. But with the limitations of the SDK, I guess most Devs would just assume build a VST and not mess with the SDK.
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Rackman
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29 Jan 2020

Yeah. I think this is effectively the beginning of Propellerhead washing their hands of REs. Hopefully there is enough interest from developers to pick it up and keep it going. Guess the problem with the idea of open sourcing it is that the DAW comes at a not insignificant cost. So even if the RE SDK was OS, only owners of a proprietary and expensive product could use them.

What's really surprising is where does this leave Propellerhead? They have all but abandoned the DAW aspect over recent releases, and are now giving away the RE SDK. What is their long game? Put all development into the plugin?

Doubly surprising that now Propellerhead is being driven by VC money. It's unusual to see things open up in this situation. I wonder if there will be some big announcement in the coming days/weeks.
fieldframe wrote:
29 Jan 2020
challism wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Seems like a last ditch effort to save the dying RE market. And it's a brilliant idea. I think it will work. Opening up Reason as a VST itself was the first brilliant move. Now this. This will breathe new life life in the RE market.

This is amazing news. I think we will see the RE market explode in the coming years with many new devs and probably a lot of new free REs available.

I'm also wondering about the use of the word amend. Does it mean that devs can now change the SDK itself, and someday bypass so many of its limitations? This could be huge.

I'm curious if they are going to open up Reason's RE test version "Reason Recon" for everyone, too? And are all the other tools going to be available? Seems like they would be. https://www.reasonstudios.com/developers
Agreed that this feels like a bit of a last ditch effort. I really hope it succeeds!

Honestly, though, the ideal time to do this was maybe four, five years ago, back when RE still had some appreciable momentum. The platform has been more or less dead in the water for the past year or so, and it's hard to say whether this will have an effect or not.

I think the real determining factor will be whether this spurs interest in (and whether the licensing allows) RE technology to be used outside of Reason, like the proofs-of-concept with MIND Music Labs' Elk. If it does, that will be a win for everyone, but if not, I don't think you're going to suddenly get a bunch of new developers for whom an NDA was the only thing keeping them from developing for Reason.

Anyway, fingers crossed that this is the beginning of a new era for the platform, and not resuscitating a dead horse.

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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
What's really surprising is where does this leave Propellerhead? They have all but abandoned the DAW aspect over recent releases
No. It's been repeatedly said by Reason Studios that the DAW aspect of Reason will of course continue to be developed. In fact, several core standalone DAW improvements appeared in 11 when it released a few months ago.
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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
What's really surprising is where does this leave Propellerhead? They have all but abandoned the DAW aspect over recent releases, and are now giving away the RE SDK. What is their long game? Put all development into the plugin?
Publishing is not giving away, it does not change anyhing really. This is just a PR occasion to invite more developers. The long game is to (slowly) develop both the DAW and the Plugin (they are connected, after all). Btw, there is not much to be done about the Plugin.

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29 Jan 2020

electrofux wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Oki,

reading and reading. Already found some interesting things concerning me an my Remote/StepSequencer mania. There is no limit of remotable items which makes me wonder why many devices are not complete in that area, given that it seems to be straight forward assingning a remote item to a motherboard property. I assume there are some pitfalls though.
But there has allways been reluctance to implement the steps of sequencer devices as remotable especially when patterns were involved and the number of items would become big. I am wondering if a high number of remotable properties (eg 5000) would affect performance.
It’s because the motherboard is limited to 1024 properties, and those slots fill up fast if you implement a multi pattern device. For Step, I chose to forego multiple pattern support in favor of maximizing Remote and automation support.

For Sequences, we definitely wanted multiple patterns, so we decided to encode the pattern data into long string properties, which of course makes Remote/automation support impossible.

But there’s also a usability aspect to this, since each parameter+pattern combination would have to have separate Remote objects. So you couldn’t for example toggle mute on step 3 in two different patterns using the same button without a really advanced Remote codec.
Redrum can do this, but it’s not an RE and doesn’t adhere to the same limitations.

Rackman
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29 Jan 2020

Come on. Are you serious? They have done next to nothing of significance over the last two major versions. Just very minor additions.
EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
What's really surprising is where does this leave Propellerhead? They have all but abandoned the DAW aspect over recent releases
No. It's been repeatedly said by Reason Studios that the DAW aspect of Reason will of course continue to be developed. In fact, several core standalone DAW improvements appeared in 11 when it released a few months ago.
Last edited by Rackman on 29 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.

Rackman
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29 Jan 2020

I guess it will depend on whether this is a single step or the beginning of open sourcing the SDK. I appreciate it doesn't change anything right now, but it's interesting to speculate as to why they've made this move none the less.
orthodox wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
What's really surprising is where does this leave Propellerhead? They have all but abandoned the DAW aspect over recent releases, and are now giving away the RE SDK. What is their long game? Put all development into the plugin?
Publishing is not giving away, it does not change anyhing really. This is just a PR occasion to invite more developers. The long game is to (slowly) develop both the DAW and the Plugin (they are connected, after all). Btw, there is not much to be done about the Plugin.

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orthodox
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29 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
I guess it will depend on whether this is a single step or the beginning of open sourcing the SDK. I appreciate it doesn't change anything right now, but it's interesting to speculate as to why they've made this move none the less.
The SDK is a public interface to the Reason core. It cannot be 'opensourced' since it does not contain any code. There is just nothing else that could be done in that direction other than putting up the Reason source code on Github.

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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2020

Rackman wrote:
29 Jan 2020
Come on. Are you serious? They have done next to nothing of significance over the last two major versions. Just very minor additions.
Very minor additions?! Are you serious? Let's recount the last two major versions:

Reason 10
  • Five new instruments added to the rack, and two previously paid-for REs now built-in
  • New Loop Supply and Drum Supply content
  • Devices can now be added to favorite lists
  • Europa sample/wavetable loading
  • Added Multi Lane Edit, for viewing and editing MIDI across multiple lanes and tracks at once
  • Adjust faders, solo and mute across multiple mix channels at once
  • A new snap setting, Grid, will adapt the resolution to zoom level
  • Double click a sequencer track to open the rack and scroll to its device
  • New +Add Device and +Add Track buttons in rack and sequencer
  • New context menu item, Route to New Mix Channel, on audio outputs
  • Easy MIDI Inputs automatically detects MIDI controllers when connected
  • New setting in Reason’s preferences for returning the play cursor to its last start position when stopping playback in main sequencer
  • Improved track selection behavior in sequencer track list to match the behavior of devices in the Rack and Clips
  • Improved looping behavior in Dual Arpeggio
  • Performance improvements
  • Added Monotone Bass Synthesizer, a new bass synth device that's cross-compatible with Reason Compact
  • Added Rytmik Drum Machine, a new drum device that's cross-compatible with Reason Compact
Reason 11
  • Reason now includes Reason Rack Plugin, a plugin version of the Reason Rack
  • Added new device: Sweeper Modulation Effect
  • Added new device: Quartet Chorus Ensemble
  • Added new device: Master Bus Compressor
  • Added new device: Channel Dynamics
  • Added new device: Channel EQ
  • Curve automation lines between two automation points
  • Crossfade between two overlapping audio clips
  • Improved zoom, including individual track height, improved Zoom to Selection (Z) and increased zoom height
  • Mute MIDI notes using the Mute Tool or pressing M
  • New Pencil Tool mode to draw notes at current snap value
  • Absolute Snap, a new snap setting where events always snap to the grid
  • Improved key visualization in Edit Mode, showing both the notes played via MIDI and the notes selected
  • Shortcut for moving notes up or down an octave
  • cmd+shift+up/down (Mac) or ctrl+shift+up/down (Win)
  • Draw an automation point on the existing automation line by holding Shift
I've bolded items which clearly benefit Reason standalone DAW users. Reason 11 has hardly been out 4-5 months, and already it has a lot of improvements that are aimed at the standalone DAW portion. Do we want more? Well hell yes - but suggesting they've abandoned the DAW aspect the past couple of versions is simply not true. Disingenuous, at best.
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