Why no multi-timbre instruments ?

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
Busta US
Posts: 160
Joined: 26 Oct 2019

Post 11 Jan 2020

I'm reading many posts about Reason's missing compatibility with multi-timbre instrument. What's the reason behind it technically and can it be fixed ?

User avatar
esselfortium
Posts: 1270
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

Email Reason Studios and tell them you want it, the more people asking for it the more likely they might listen. I have no idea why they haven't found it worth implementing yet.

User avatar
Oquasec
Posts: 2623
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

Post 11 Jan 2020

Rewire/vst.
Producer/Sound Designer.

User avatar
esselfortium
Posts: 1270
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

Oquasec wrote:
11 Jan 2020
Rewire/vst.
No.

loopeydoug
Posts: 23
Joined: 11 Oct 2018

Post 11 Jan 2020

What is the consensus on the term, "multi-timbral"? When I think about Reason and multi-timbrality I think, Reason itself is a MT instrument. Then I think, the Combinator, at the very least, supports multi-timbrality.

User avatar
orthodox
Posts: 940
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

I too wonder what it means. Maybe, it's devices where the timbre is set with midi Program Change/Bank Select events, which cannot be stored in Reason sequencer midi tracks?
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

User avatar
reddust
Posts: 643
Joined: 07 May 2018

Post 11 Jan 2020

I guess midi multichannel or MPE is meant? I wished that feature were supported in Reason as well

User avatar
Benedict
Posts: 2129
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 11 Jan 2020

Multi-Timbral in MIDI terms is one Device that is able to receive and respond to many MIDI Channels discretely at the same time.

In simple terms: 1 box, many synths.

In the hardware world this option makes a lot of sense when you have an 8-voice synth but are only using 2 voices. If you can share those 8 voices across 4 or 8 different patches at once, you get far greater efficiency for your dollar and roadie's back. Having one CZ-1000 push 4 sounds out of the same output is a massive win.

In the DAW, this doesn't make as much sense so multitimbrality has faded to a great extent. Big synths like Falcon and even Reason itself with the Advanced MIDI panel that can run a whole Gig have a purpose but a virtual CZ-1000 pushing 4 sounds out of the same output is not so practical anymore (and oddly nor are multiple outs in this case).

I wouldn't be opposed to Reason handling multitimbral synths but this changes a lot for them seeing an Instrument is tied to that Instrument and not a MIDI Track that can be sent anywhere (sound nice but can be a bit of a workflow killer).

Personally I wonder far more at all these hardware synths with no Multi mode. All those guts and costs for one sound!

:-)

User avatar
orthodox
Posts: 940
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 11 Jan 2020

Yes, the midi event channel number info also gets lost in the Reason sequencer.

When I need to use midi to the fullest extent, I choose Cakewalk.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

User avatar
jam-s
Posts: 885
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 11 Jan 2020

People mostly want this feature for Kontakt as there quite a lot of (orchestral) multis are set up to have the various instrument (sections) on different midi channels. So you have on instance of Kontakt with the whole orchestra and then select via the midi channel if you want to have the strings or horns or woodwinds or choirs perform this bit of midi.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace.

NostraDAWmus
Posts: 25
Joined: 26 Jul 2019

Post 11 Jan 2020

Benedict wrote:
11 Jan 2020
Multi-Timbral in MIDI terms is one Device that is able to receive and respond to many MIDI Channels discretely at the same time.

In simple terms: 1 box, many synths.
No,- same POLY- (!) synth, the voices freely distributable to different and already stored patches while the voices listen to user- definable MIDI channels and allow individual MIDI CC assigments incl. relative volume MIDI CC#11, MIDI Prg.-Change, alternative CV/Gate control (like Oberheim Xpander), support individual audio outputs.

Check out Arturia´s emulation of the Oberheim Matrix-12 which is able to work in "Single" and "Multi" Patch Mode,- like the vintage hardware.
It´s all doable when the developer wants.
And it´s not everything realizable when working w/ most VIs like they are today,- they DON´T replace the flagship hardware from the past.
Benedict wrote:
11 Jan 2020
In the hardware world this option makes a lot of sense when you have an 8-voice synth but are only using 2 voices. If you can share those 8 voices across 4 or 8 different patches at once, you get far greater efficiency for your dollar and roadie's back. Having one CZ-1000 push 4 sounds out of the same output is a massive win.
Or out of several individual audio-outs ...
Benedict wrote:
11 Jan 2020
In the DAW, this doesn't make as much sense so multitimbrality has faded to a great extent. Big synths like Falcon and even Reason itself with the Advanced MIDI panel that can run a whole Gig have a purpose but a virtual CZ-1000 pushing 4 sounds out of the same output is not so practical anymore (and oddly nor are multiple outs in this case).
For live gigging, MIDI multitimbrality, called MIDI Multi Mode, is a win !
When I check software, I have always in mind replacing hardware to a degree.
I REALLY hoped for the Reason VST3 Rack to work in MIDI Multi Mode.

I bet it´s less CPU consuming working w/ a MIDI Multimode Rack instead opening several instances of the Rack,- clever coding preconditioned !

;)

P.

NostraDAWmus
Posts: 25
Joined: 26 Jul 2019

Post 11 Jan 2020

jam-s wrote:
11 Jan 2020
People mostly want this feature for Kontakt as there quite a lot of (orchestral) multis are set up to have the various instrument (sections) on different midi channels. So you have on instance of Kontakt with the whole orchestra and then select via the midi channel if you want to have the strings or horns or woodwinds or choirs perform this bit of midi.
NI Kontakt "Multi" is it ...
The Reason VST3 Rack should work the same way !

:)

P.

User avatar
bitley
Posts: 1309
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Location: sweden

Post 12 Jan 2020

It's the thing that would take the most amount of work vs. render the least amount of gain for them.

Each rack instrument would have to be renewed. But it would definitely clean up the screen clutter...

User avatar
bitley
Posts: 1309
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Location: sweden

Post 12 Jan 2020

Having one CZ-1000 push 4 sounds out of the same output is a massive win.
:mrgreen:

Jesus, am I reading some Craig Anderton article from the summer of 1985? ;-) While that sounds cool "on paper" it's not as the CZ engine struggles so hard it's insane. So the CZ was a bad example but many others deliver nicely, like the classic TX81Z.

User avatar
Benedict
Posts: 2129
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 12 Jan 2020

bitley wrote:
12 Jan 2020
Having one CZ-1000 push 4 sounds out of the same output is a massive win.
:mrgreen:

Jesus, am I reading some Craig Anderton article from the summer of 1985? ;-) While that sounds cool "on paper" it's not as the CZ engine struggles so hard it's insane. So the CZ was a bad example but many others deliver nicely, like the classic TX81Z.
How quickly we forget.

Yes in hindsight 4 monophonic synths out one mono jack seems lame compared to later and/or more expensive units like say an Integra, but for the price at the time it was awesome.

:-)

NostraDAWmus
Posts: 25
Joined: 26 Jul 2019

Post 12 Jan 2020

bitley wrote:
12 Jan 2020
It's the thing that would take the most amount of work vs. render the least amount of gain for them.

Each rack instrument would have to be renewed. But it would definitely clean up the screen clutter...
I bought your WBF Kontakt version in addition to the RSN version, just to overcome the lack of MIDI multi mode in the RSN VST3 Rack,- at least for some sounds though ...

Now, we´ll get MIDI 2.0 and Roland offers the 1st 88 weighted keys controller supporting MIDI 2.0 via USB-C, we get better resolution and MUCH more controller numbers.
Reason HAS to step up w/ user assignable MIDI channels and controller assignment for EACH single device in the RSN Rack/ VST3 Rack !
I really wonder why this is soooo difficult. :roll:

P.

User avatar
Boombastix
Posts: 1058
Joined: 18 May 2018
Location: Bay Area, CA

Post 12 Jan 2020

NostraDAWmus wrote:
12 Jan 2020
bitley wrote:
12 Jan 2020
It's the thing that would take the most amount of work vs. render the least amount of gain for them.

Each rack instrument would have to be renewed. But it would definitely clean up the screen clutter...
I bought your WBF Kontakt version in addition to the RSN version, just to overcome the lack of MIDI multi mode in the RSN VST3 Rack,- at least for some sounds though ...

Now, we´ll get MIDI 2.0 and Roland offers the 1st 88 weighted keys controller supporting MIDI 2.0 via USB-C, we get better resolution and MUCH more controller numbers.
Reason HAS to step up w/ user assignable MIDI channels and controller assignment for EACH single device in the RSN Rack/ VST3 Rack !
I really wonder why this is soooo difficult. :roll:

P.
A first step would be to fully implement midi 1.0 (yes, there is a wee bit of sarcasm here)
10% off at Waves with link: https://www.waves.com/r/6gh2b0
Disclaimer - I get 10% as well.

User avatar
bitley
Posts: 1309
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Location: sweden

Post 13 Jan 2020

NostraDAWmus wrote:
12 Jan 2020
bitley wrote:
12 Jan 2020
It's the thing that would take the most amount of work vs. render the least amount of gain for them.

Each rack instrument would have to be renewed. But it would definitely clean up the screen clutter...
I bought your WBF Kontakt version in addition to the RSN version, just to overcome the lack of MIDI multi mode in the RSN VST3 Rack,- at least for some sounds though ...

Now, we´ll get MIDI 2.0 and Roland offers the 1st 88 weighted keys controller supporting MIDI 2.0 via USB-C, we get better resolution and MUCH more controller numbers.
Reason HAS to step up w/ user assignable MIDI channels and controller assignment for EACH single device in the RSN Rack/ VST3 Rack !
I really wonder why this is soooo difficult. :roll:

P.
Thanks for that!

It's easy to explain. Reason has like say 2 million rows of code. There are about 20 developers. The todo list has 200 constant entries. Small company, very very large task operation. Leadership has to decide on what is most important all the time. Will all customers always be happy? No. Are all Windows 10 users happy then, since Microsoft probably has 20,000 developers? The answer is no there as well.

User avatar
reddust
Posts: 643
Joined: 07 May 2018

Post 14 Jan 2020

bitley wrote:
13 Jan 2020
NostraDAWmus wrote:
12 Jan 2020


I bought your WBF Kontakt version in addition to the RSN version, just to overcome the lack of MIDI multi mode in the RSN VST3 Rack,- at least for some sounds though ...

Now, we´ll get MIDI 2.0 and Roland offers the 1st 88 weighted keys controller supporting MIDI 2.0 via USB-C, we get better resolution and MUCH more controller numbers.
Reason HAS to step up w/ user assignable MIDI channels and controller assignment for EACH single device in the RSN Rack/ VST3 Rack !
I really wonder why this is soooo difficult. :roll:

P.
Thanks for that!

It's easy to explain. Reason has like say 2 million rows of code. There are about 20 developers. The todo list has 200 constant entries. Small company, very very large task operation. Leadership has to decide on what is most important all the time. Will all customers always be happy? No. Are all Windows 10 users happy then, since Microsoft probably has 20,000 developers? The answer is no there as well.
Totally understandable but on the other side midi multichannel is a pretty basic feature for most DAWs since many years and Propellerheads/Reason Studios is a company mainly known for making a DAW since a lot of years as well, I mean this is their work field. I can understand that there is no video feature because video cutting belongs to a different branch but midi multichannel? In a music software company?

I personally think this feature is not just a minor thing. It's like Microsoft still wouldn't allow several programs to run at the same time or something in year 2020.

User avatar
Re8et
Posts: 740
Joined: 14 Nov 2016

Post 14 Jan 2020

Multi-timbral synths are hard to find in the real world, let's take Roland boutiques, which are essentially VST's packed inside a shell.
The Jp-08 has percussions, bass, leads, horns, etc... and 4 voices.
Theoretically it could deliver a song, but no, it's mono-timbral, and does not have (of course) multiple outs.
I see it as a poor design choice, but I am talking real world hardware.
I'd never guessed the occurrance of it would've even been talked about in Reason environment to this day.

User avatar
Re8et
Posts: 740
Joined: 14 Nov 2016

Post 14 Jan 2020

NostraDAWmus wrote:
12 Jan 2020
...

Now, we´ll get MIDI 2.0 and Roland offers the 1st 88 weighted keys controller supporting MIDI 2.0 via USB-C, we get better resolution and MUCH more controller numbers.
Reason HAS to step up w/ user assignable MIDI channels and controller assignment for EACH single device in the RSN Rack/ VST3 Rack !
I really wonder why this is soooo difficult. :roll:

P.
Seems legit.

I'd use caution anyway, it has always been a design choice, retrocompatibility, I hope it is doable but
I would not cheers on Roland messing up the original universal midi code with their own, on the same
level we could say, why Reason do not adopt Blamsoft poly-cv on all their devices AND has it retrocompatible?

There's a little problem in your logic or in mine?

User avatar
orthodox
Posts: 940
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 14 Jan 2020

One way of quickly implementing that feature could look like a Combinator-style Programmer section on top of the Reason Rack Plugin, where you could select which devices receive notes on which midi channels. The RRP is already a sort of Combinator after all, just you cannot block instruments from receiving notes & performance cc and individually transpose them, so that could be a good feature for everyone.

As for adding midi channels to the Reason sequencer, let alone implementing the full MIDI standard, I think this would be a mission impossible.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

Busta US
Posts: 160
Joined: 26 Oct 2019

Post 14 Jan 2020

Benedict wrote:
11 Jan 2020
Multi-Timbral in MIDI terms is one Device that is able to receive and respond to many MIDI Channels discretely at the same time.

In simple terms: 1 box, many synths.
Yes! That's what it means thx for clearing this out I'm sorry I didn't explain that :thumbs_up:

Busta US
Posts: 160
Joined: 26 Oct 2019

Post 14 Jan 2020

jam-s wrote:
11 Jan 2020
People mostly want this feature for Kontakt as there quite a lot of (orchestral) multis are set up to have the various instrument (sections) on different midi channels. So you have on instance of Kontakt with the whole orchestra and then select via the midi channel if you want to have the strings or horns or woodwinds or choirs perform this bit of midi.
Exactly :thumbs_up:

Busta US
Posts: 160
Joined: 26 Oct 2019

Post 14 Jan 2020

NostraDAWmus wrote:
11 Jan 2020

The Reason VST3 Rack should work the same way !

:)

P.

That'd be great tbh, especially since it looks and acts as a Rack so that should be a no-brainer inmho

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: Trendiction [Bot] and 15 guests