Moving an Artist 7 Years in 3 Days – this is What I Do & How I Do it

[Benedict]

What if I could show you a way to springboard your Art (Music, Painting, Kung Fu, Formula 1 Driving) ahead in massive steps in a really short amount of time?

Would you want that? What would it be worth to you and your work?

I will admit that uptake for what I offer is not great. “No” is the most common answer I get when I offer to assist someone in delivering a better piece of music. I do understand that as what I do is not as easily defined as simply buying a new compressor plugin.

Art for Art’s sake, Money for God’s sake
If you are one of those confused about how I may be able to help you, this may give you an idea of what is possible. This is what I do and how I do it:

These two images are drawings by the same 8 year old girl only 3 days apart. In that time she did not have any formal art lessons, read any books, or even particularly learn any new techniques (what people call Tips & Tricks).

read more...
https://benedictroffmarsh.com/2020/01/1 ... w-i-do-it/
(the article doesn't really work without the images)

[Rising Night Wave]

Art for Art’s sake, Money for God’s sake

[Oquasec]

Organization seems to be the theme here.

[Benedict]

Art for Art’s sake, Money for God’s sake

Being the lyric from the 10CC song. Maybe you didn't realize that I almost always use song titles or lyrics for subheadings

[Benedict]

Organization seems to be the theme here.

I honestly have no idea what you mean. I don't recall writing about organization, maybe you can explain??

[TritoneAddiction]

I don't know man. I read through the whole thing. Maybe I'm very close minded but I don't feel very open to this. I find the whole thing pretty vague.

Could you show how you helped transform someones musical piece perhaps? It's kind of hard to form a fair opinion about this with a drawing example.

[Oquasec]

Organization is pretty useful because it gets you into gear quicker.
Cuz everything laid out in a way you can decipher easily which would lessen the intake time?

[Benedict]

Wow, Ummm, Tritone, I have been showing this in articles & videos with music for 10+ years. I tried the picture approach (seeing it happened as a parent) and because it is more visual.

Oquasec yes, I talk about being organized elsewhere but not here. Matter of fact the wrong kind of organization in this article is the fear that stops Hannah from letting her real message out.

The whole idea of this is that it is the complete opposite approach from the tried & failed 10 Great Tips & Twerks that give the illusion that now you can make better choonz, but what happens...?? Maybe your 457Hz range is different but the music itself didn't get any better.

[TritoneAddiction]

Wow, Ummm, Tritone, I have been showing this in articles & videos with music for 10+ years. I tried the picture approach (seeing it happened as a parent) and because it is more visual.

I'm sorry if my comment came out harsh. I haven't looked into your articles and videos.

It's not personal. I'm just someone who is really careful about taking advice from people. I've pretty much stopped asking for musical feedback at this point, because I've realized so much is about personal taste.

[Benedict]

Wow, Ummm, Tritone, I have been showing this in articles & videos with music for 10+ years. I tried the picture approach (seeing it happened as a parent) and because it is more visual.

I'm sorry if my comment came out harsh. I haven't looked into your articles and videos.

It's not personal. I'm just someone who is really careful about taking advice from people. I've pretty much stopped asking for musical feedback at this point, because I've realized so much is about personal taste.

Thanks

I understand about feedback as feedback and advice has been very damaged in the last 20 years seeing it has been democratized to the point of becoming a dangerous thing for the artist when the ignorant (those who choose to ignore) have as much (if not more) right to expound vilely on what they know not, in terms not fit for the barroom - solely because they can do it under excuse of not getting punched in the nose and claiming to have as much moral superiority as Gandhi.

Feedback & learning are still very much valuable things when done with an open mind & heart - particularly when you take feedback and advice from your betters. I know that latter offends many but who is likely to give more useful advice Fiver Freddie or Brian May (of Queen)? As equals we can and should dialog but there is this huge tendency to not honor the process, esp that of people who have proven experience (that other thread I made so let's not discuss that here).

This thread is about the idea that amazing things lurk in people when guided well. Listen to the rough Demos of famous songs compared to the final album/single version and you'll have another sense of what I am trying to get across here (and everywhere I speak).

Under guidance to "draw the feeling" instead of obsessing over technicalities & fears, the maturity of the drawings moved many years in aptitude. Today a painting under a loving but permissive Grandma (who is a competent painter) went most of the way back to the A drawing. Make of that what you will.

[guitfnky]

TBH, I liked the first picture better.

I think it’s good you asked for permission to help, but it seems like you’d already primed her for the kind of help *you* thought she needed, not the kind of help she might have wanted. your insinuation as to what needed work was that the leaves weren’t realistic enough. but what if she was happy with the leaves (before you’d said “not like that...”), and wanted help with something else?

that’s a HUGE component of creativity—one’s own artistic agency. especially at an impressionable age, when it’s easy to guide a child down a particular path. what if Picasso had been concerned about realism? he could paint realistically for sure, but it’s not what made his art unique and interesting.

the thing about art is, there is literally no such thing as “wrong”. you can screw up a performance, but it’s only “wrong” if the artist themselves says it is. good creative coaching shouldn’t replace one’s artistic choices with those of the coach, it should augment them. it should start from a place of “what are you trying to express here?” and help them understand what’s working, and what’s not, in furtherance of that expression.

the more I think about it, your stated goal seems at odds with your example. unless I’m missing the mark (wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case), your goal is to help people get better at being creative, but the example you’re giving is about helping your daughter improve on a technical level (how to draw a better leaf), not a creative one.

[diminished]

<3

[Benedict]

TBH, I liked the first picture better.

I think it’s good you asked for permission to help, but it seems like you’d already primed her for the kind of help *you* thought she needed, not the kind of help she might have wanted. your insinuation as to what needed work was that the leaves weren’t realistic enough. but what if she was happy with the leaves (before you’d said “not like that...”), and wanted help with something else?

that’s a HUGE component of creativity—one’s own artistic agency. especially at an impressionable age, when it’s easy to guide a child down a particular path. what if Picasso had been concerned about realism? he could paint realistically for sure, but it’s not what made his art unique and interesting.

the thing about art is, there is literally no such thing as “wrong”. you can screw up a performance, but it’s only “wrong” if the artist themselves says it is. good creative coaching shouldn’t replace one’s artistic choices with those of the coach, it should augment them. it should start from a place of “what are you trying to express here?” and help them understand what’s working, and what’s not, in furtherance of that expression.

the more I think about it, your stated goal seems at odds with your example. unless I’m missing the mark (wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case), your goal is to help people get better at being creative, but the example you’re giving is about helping your daughter improve on a technical level (how to draw a better leaf), not a creative one.

I made a response making it very clear how unacceptable this post was seeing it twists what I said & did and uses that as a springboard to suggest that I bully my children. I also sent that post for Moderation. It is not the first time this person has made similarly snide personal attacks. I come back and find my response missing and the slanderous one staying.

Moderators, was this your decision?

[jappe]

TBH, I liked the first picture better.

I think it’s good you asked for permission to help, but it seems like you’d already primed her for the kind of help *you* thought she needed, not the kind of help she might have wanted. your insinuation as to what needed work was that the leaves weren’t realistic enough. but what if she was happy with the leaves (before you’d said “not like that...”), and wanted help with something else?

that’s a HUGE component of creativity—one’s own artistic agency. especially at an impressionable age, when it’s easy to guide a child down a particular path. what if Picasso had been concerned about realism? he could paint realistically for sure, but it’s not what made his art unique and interesting.

the thing about art is, there is literally no such thing as “wrong”. you can screw up a performance, but it’s only “wrong” if the artist themselves says it is. good creative coaching shouldn’t replace one’s artistic choices with those of the coach, it should augment them. it should start from a place of “what are you trying to express here?” and help them understand what’s working, and what’s not, in furtherance of that expression.

the more I think about it, your stated goal seems at odds with your example. unless I’m missing the mark (wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case), your goal is to help people get better at being creative, but the example you’re giving is about helping your daughter improve on a technical level (how to draw a better leaf), not a creative one.

I made a response making it very clear how unacceptable this post was seeing it twists what I said & did and uses that as a springboard to suggest that I bully my children. I also sent that post for Moderation. It is not the first time this person has made similarly snide personal attacks. I come back and find my response missing and the slanderous one staying.

Moderators, was this your decision?

Hello,

I've sent a PM to you.

[Benedict]

Jappe

I got that PM and it appears that you are saying that someone implying that I bully my children is ok but I can't use the F-word to call them on that. That word is on most things on Netflix but even there they balk at accusing a person of things like this.

If you don't allow bad manners then there is not a need for me to get bent out of shape. If you do then I have the right to handle myself as I see fit, esp with such vile slurs that can affect my life in the "real world" if they spread. If you do this...

This says to me (and anyone else with half a brain) that if they find the right way to embed their syntax they could equally go around this community accusing people of all manner of vile things? All I have to do is twist things in that certain way that allows me to pass it off as my "feelings" and it is ok to say that you are a rapist? Is that the message that Reason Talk is giving to me personally and the community in general?

If so, that is indeed your right, seeing it is your space.

But please be clear about that here in public so I can decide if I support your space or not.

[jappe]

Jappe

I got that PM and it appears that you are saying that someone implying that I bully my children is ok but I can't use the F-word to call them on that. That word is on most things on Netflix but even there they balk at accusing a person of things like this.

If you don't allow bad manners then there is not a need for me to get bent out of shape. If you do then I have the right to handle myself as I see fit, esp with such vile slurs that can affect my life in the "real world" if they spread. If you do this...

This says to me (and anyone else with half a brain) that if they find the right way to embed their syntax they could equally go around this community accusing people of all manner of vile things? All I have to do is twist things in that certain way that allows me to pass it off as my "feelings" and it is ok to say that you are a rapist? Is that the message that Reason Talk is giving to me personally and the community in general?

If so, that is indeed your right, seeing it is your space.

But please be clear about that here in public so I can decide if I support your space or not.

I haven't said the reported post was ok.
I said I didn't understand what was wrong with it, and told you I forwarded it to the other moderators to have a second opinion.

Please take further discussion on PM with me or the other moderators.

[guitfnky]

TBH, I liked the first picture better.

I think it’s good you asked for permission to help, but it seems like you’d already primed her for the kind of help *you* thought she needed, not the kind of help she might have wanted. your insinuation as to what needed work was that the leaves weren’t realistic enough. but what if she was happy with the leaves (before you’d said “not like that...”), and wanted help with something else?

that’s a HUGE component of creativity—one’s own artistic agency. especially at an impressionable age, when it’s easy to guide a child down a particular path. what if Picasso had been concerned about realism? he could paint realistically for sure, but it’s not what made his art unique and interesting.

the thing about art is, there is literally no such thing as “wrong”. you can screw up a performance, but it’s only “wrong” if the artist themselves says it is. good creative coaching shouldn’t replace one’s artistic choices with those of the coach, it should augment them. it should start from a place of “what are you trying to express here?” and help them understand what’s working, and what’s not, in furtherance of that expression.

the more I think about it, your stated goal seems at odds with your example. unless I’m missing the mark (wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case), your goal is to help people get better at being creative, but the example you’re giving is about helping your daughter improve on a technical level (how to draw a better leaf), not a creative one.

I made a response making it very clear how unacceptable this post was seeing it twists what I said & did and uses that as a springboard to suggest that I bully my children. I also sent that post for Moderation. It is not the first time this person has made similarly snide personal attacks. I come back and find my response missing and the slanderous one staying.

Moderators, was this your decision?

where did I suggest you bully your children, or slander you? all I did was try to point out how your approach might have a different effect than you intended. I wasn’t judging you. I honestly don’t know where this is coming from. and I’m truly sorry I didn’t make my intent clearer—the last thing I want is to hurt anyone.

[Benedict]

Jappe (and Mods in general): if this is done in public then it can be handled in public. I did the keep it private thing last time and honestly, it was not well handled. At least this way everyone can see what the real values and outcomes are. This is only fair. Trying to hide the dirty laundry in these situations only creates more grief for the people involved and the community at large when it happens again.

Guitfnky: I have often found you hurtful. Almost every time you have made one of these responses to something I have done. Every time it has been like you deliberately want to make it clear that I have no right to an opinion or statement but you have the right to make way off-base opinionated statements about me and what I have & haven't done. This may not be your intent but the regularity with which you do it is not exactly helping me to feel warm & fuzzy about you when your intent appears to strip my dignity to make yourself feel clever. From the PM I got, I get the impression that your first response when seeing my upset was deleted too so that also very much says to me that you weren't sorry that you did something you didn't mean but were doubling-down on the insult.

I know the response I first posted was not polite. I had drafted a long one with more highbrow wording but with those, don't be so sensitive dude, TLDR comments people have used on me here in the last week or so, and the total meanness of that post overall I decided that it didn't warrant a thing that left any room for misunderstanding about how I felt. Twisting everything I said to make thinly-veiled comments about my being unkind to my children and a fool in general needed a firmer expression of my feelings that showed that I was not being sensitive anymore - merely outraged.

Now, this is not entirely personal as you can see from the other thread I started. There is a tendency (or a fashion even) these days to say things so insensitively, often without even understanding the point being made, that "everyone" does it and then says, oh but it's my feelings man. Well, this is my feelings: It hurts and it sucks because all it does is destroy people & relationships. It makes people who have it done to them not want to be here.

Now if as a community, I am not wanted then say it outright and clearly here in public. If Guitfnky or any of the other people who do this stuff want to be here, that is fine with me. If they want to do it to me that will not be fine. If the community would like to keep those behaviors unbridled more than anything I can bring then fine too. Just be clear about it here in the open - this is my thread so you have my permission to derail it for this purpose.

[QVprod]

Jappe (and Mods in general): if this is done in public then it can be handled in public. I did the keep it private thing last time and honestly, it was not well handled. At least this way everyone can see what the real values and outcomes are. This is only fair. Trying to hide the dirty laundry in these situations only creates more grief for the people involved and the community at large when it happens again.

There was no personal attack. Someone disagreeing with your teaching method is not an attack nor did it in this instance imply you as a bully. Your (now deleted) response however, was an attack. Let's leave that as that. As this is a forum, people will disagree on whatever the topic of discussion is. Please keep it civil.

[guitfnky]

all I can say at this point, Benedict, is that you’ve misinterpreted my responses to you, and my intent. again, I’m sorry I couldn’t have made it more clear, but I have never meant you any ill will, or tried to make myself look clever at your (or anyone else’s) expense.

sometimes it’s just that two people have fundamentally different communication styles online, and that causes friction. I’m guessing that’s likely the case here. I imagine if we were ever in the same room, we could have a beer, and talk shop, and enjoy the chat.

and with that, I’ll see myself out of this thread. take care.

[Yonatan]

Many times a producer takes the role of a kind of adviser for an artist. If a very famous artist, it tend to be a more equal creative colaboration.
There is examples of both terrible and heavenly uplifting influences from a producer-artist relationship.
So I would like if we could open up the subject a bit so we could leave the subjective of this one example, and share psycological roles of a producer-artist cooperation. If this is not likable, then I promise to stay out of this thread.

Some producers are strictly financial dudes, all the way to those very much dictating what they want out of a song or an album..

I think this has a lot to do with the certain personal chemistry and also what they both seek from eachother.

We have all the famous phil spector, we have George Martin with Beatles and all genres have their different producers and we all look at those album covers and almost can predict tje sound by looking at the producer.
Then we can check who is the engineer and then we read names of the musicians.
Then we play the record. Sometimes we think wow what an amazing combination and sound. Listen how well those songs are presented and how the singing voice have a certain sound to it that is not heard on earlier records. A combination of right choice of material, of rigjt michrophones, of the expression and the craft of the engineer. The producer is the overall responsible for the overall outcome.

To get best out of any artist or a football team, or a drama group or a movie productipn, it is an art in itself, and some "players" or actors needs more soft gloves and silky words to feel safe, while some artists may be better off with some more pressure and tension to push the best out of them and they are performing worse if treated like a prince on a pillow. More common is that it is a fine dynamic where the producer needs all kinds of gloves to change at an instant, to keep get the jewels out of the artist potential.

So...as i see Benedict describe this example, it shows the role of a producer with a mentor role.
And finding right partnerships where there is mutual understanding, is the hard part of it.
So it is just natiral that not all would be favoured by that collab or service, while other would be a perfect match.
I see that you Benedict have an website and if I would take anything out of this thread it is the need to be a bit more specific on what you can offer and to who this service might be of use.
Feedback on a song or production. If they only want to get feedback on sound or mixing, then they need to say so and if also want opinions about the arrangement and overall composition etc, then if they pay for that, they wont get butthurt about the honest feedback and suggestion. And in your style of feedback you may have some artfull way of giving a feedback. Some would love that, others do not.

So the challange is to find right people who need the certain value ones own style and experience can help the most in win-win.

It may be a bit harder on a forum like this where there might be all sorts of people and other producers who think otherwise.
But among all here, some might feel a connection to Benedict style and listen to your works and writings and see a value in a feedback guiding mentor service from you.

Intersesting topic it is indeed.

[Benedict]

Many times a producer takes the role of a kind of adviser for an artist. If a very famous artist, it tend to be a more equal creative colaboration.
There is examples of both terrible and heavenly uplifting influences from a producer-artist relationship.
So I would like if we could open up the subject a bit so we could leave the subjective of this one example, and share psycological roles of a producer-artist cooperation. If this is not likable, then I promise to stay out of this thread.

Some producers are strictly financial dudes, all the way to those very much dictating what they want out of a song or an album..

I think this has a lot to do with the certain personal chemistry and also what they both seek from eachother.

We have all the famous phil spector, we have George Martin with Beatles and all genres have their different producers and we all look at those album covers and almost can predict tje sound by looking at the producer.
Then we can check who is the engineer and then we read names of the musicians.
Then we play the record. Sometimes we think wow what an amazing combination and sound. Listen how well those songs are presented and how the singing voice have a certain sound to it that is not heard on earlier records. A combination of right choice of material, of rigjt michrophones, of the expression and the craft of the engineer. The producer is the overall responsible for the overall outcome.

To get best out of any artist or a football team, or a drama group or a movie productipn, it is an art in itself, and some "players" or actors needs more soft gloves and silky words to feel safe, while some artists may be better off with some more pressure and tension to push the best out of them and they are performing worse if treated like a prince on a pillow. More common is that it is a fine dynamic where the producer needs all kinds of gloves to change at an instant, to keep get the jewels out of the artist potential.

So...as i see Benedict describe this example, it shows the role of a producer with a mentor role.
And finding right partnerships where there is mutual understanding, is the hard part of it.
So it is just natiral that not all would be favoured by that collab or service, while other would be a perfect match.
I see that you Benedict have an website and if I would take anything out of this thread it is the need to be a bit more specific on what you can offer and to who this service might be of use.
Feedback on a song or production. If they only want to get feedback on sound or mixing, then they need to say so and if also want opinions about the arrangement and overall composition etc, then if they pay for that, they wont get butthurt about the honest feedback and suggestion. And in your style of feedback you may have some artfull way of giving a feedback. Some would love that, others do not.

So the challange is to find right people who need the certain value ones own style and experience can help the most in win-win.

It may be a bit harder on a forum like this where there might be all sorts of people and other producers who think otherwise.
But among all here, some might feel a connection to Benedict style and listen to your works and writings and see a value in a feedback guiding mentor service from you.

Intersesting topic it is indeed.

Thank you Yonatan.

You have clearly understood that the article is about and that it is about Coaching the performances.

Some want that some don't. Few don't benefit if they let it happen. I am firm & directs (in my own way) but never seek to push (even tho I know that when we hit Fear people think I have). It is only ever an offer. If accepted I do all I can to honor the first request.

[Benedict]

Thank you too Guitfnky